Mythic is too tight, guilds are dying

[Zyky]

One issue with that, people don't go to other guilds (only) they quit the game. Thus, the pool of recruits diminishes over time. How to solve that? We finish every tier and get CE, usually around when last boss gets first wave of nerfs or close to it, however - from start of BFA, we lost around 5 people who played with us since TBC. They didn't join better guilds.

The majority of players don't just quit when their guild dies. If that were the case then we'd have no players in the game at all. If people enjoy the game, they stay. You can't force people to continue playing.

[GringoD]

First of all, cap power progression talk (as of now) is complete bull unless you have a raid full of people wearing full 445 gear ( mixed with benthic gear ) and 70 azerite neck which makes killing every boss of EP possible if you care about raiding. Situation right now is nowhere near Uu'nat where gear was at its peak before you even entered the raid itself.

Some people can really only think in extremes. Sure, a few melees could still use the Orgo trinket, but do you really think that matters in the big picture? Have one less 0,01% try, eh? How often do those happen? We might as well extend because having more tries gives us a bigger chance.
No man, power progression has to happen across the raid to matter.

I will emphasize what i said again - *IT IS CALLED MYTHIC FOR A REASON*

Repeat that a few more times, maybe it will start to mean something.

So yes, i am against nerfs in the beginning or middle of the patch. Nerfs during heavy farm/last months of it are appreciated.

Wow, so self-centered. The Blizzard overlords might come down and bless your farm for it to be less annoying. Or are you actually for throwing the pleb guilds a bone? No, no, that can't be.

If a guild disbands because it needs months of loot down the road to kill a boss, maybe it deserves to disband.

What does that even mean? Any guild who isn't capable of killing Ashvane after a month of power progression deserves to disband? Like, that would be some elitist shittalk if I ever heard it.

[nekobaka]

A flat nerf kinda feels bad. I can vividly remember barely not killing Illidan before the % nerf hit and facerolling him afterwards. I prefer amping player power.

Titan forge is what Blizzard has moved to as the replacement for the boss nerfing like ICC and DS. It also has the benefit to Blizzard to still require players to grind. Blizzard didnt just get rid of it to get rid of it like some mistakenly think.

On the main topic there has generally been the odd intro bosses being weaker than easier difficulties bosses. Personally remember this quite strong in BC. Guilds who could clear T5 breezed through a good chunk of T6. Of course those who couldnt kill T5 end bosses struggled with T6 entry bosses when the attunements was lifted. WotLK was all over the place. Cata saw it again with PuGs who struggled with full clearing a raid being able to kill at least one heroic entry boss.

I think the part with easier entry bosses is on purpose to allow groups to get a foot hold into a raid. Otherwise full clearing the easier difficulty and getting stomped at the start can be demoralizing. I had that with one guild with ToGC heroic. ToGC normal was underwhelming for our guild while the gap between normal and hard made for quite the surprise for a group that was otherwise normal only. Ended up causing a split in my guild and its disband.

[Gaidax]

Current Mythic raiding is exactly how it should be. It's difficult, but not something insurmountable.

If my guild can clear it with 2 nights per week schedule, then it's really fine. Less difficulty than that? We'd drop to one night a week at that point, that's ridiculous for top difficulty content that's supposed to last. I don't want to clear Mythic raid in sub two months as 2 nights guild.

And yes it's truth that people suck, I hear horror stories about 600-700 pulls on Azshara, I mean seriously it IS pure skill issue at that point, unless we're talking literal world first race. Of course people jump ship at that point.

[Matija]

How many hours does your guild actually spend on progression? You have to count M+, WQs, Arenas, class research, & boss research. The last two barely take up time. But you cannot literally play 8-10 hours a week in total (only raid hours) and clear the content at a decent pace.

We clear content by raiding 3 days a week for last several expansions, but beside that - we put a lot of effort in Heroic farm on offdays, M+ and so on. And I do mean - a lot.

[relaxok]

while i do feel that mythic is a little bit to hard (mostly in terms of mandatory class requirements on some bosses), guild are always dying. i think the low number of mythic guilds atm just represents a low number of people playing the game in general.

it's not just the later mythic bosses that have low kills, it's the first one and heroic bosses too.

There’s 784 guilds that are 8/8 Mythic.. seems like a shitload to me.

[leorana]

There’s 784 guilds that are 8/8 Mythic.. seems like a shitload to me.

Absolute numbers mean very little. Let's talk percentiles ,(raiding guilds, if you count total guilds the data would even more skewed) and then we can discuss cut-offs to be considered elite/mythic worthy.

[Gaidax]

How many hours does your guild actually spend on progression? You have to count M+, WQs, Arenas, class research, & boss research. The last two barely take up time. But you cannot literally play 8-10 hours a week in total (only raid hours) and clear the content at a decent pace.

My schedule for last 2-3 months is 6 hours of WoW flat pure raidlogging. Heck we now clear Mythic in one night, so that's 3 now

Same with the rest, except for couple of guys who have alts and do random shit ingame.

I had a good push first month patch came out (and btw, raid was not out yet, so take that into account), like two hours a day or so for key dailies and pearls, but after that it dropped to pure raidlogging because M+ was pointless for me, as I get better gear from raid anyway.

To get neck capped I only did table and kill 1 thing dailies for AP which took like 15 mins mostly spent flying to whatever you need to kill.

Last time I did M+ was like a month ago and even that just to help out a friend. I don't do arenas and PvP and don't need to either. Consumables are mostly provided by guild and the rest I just buy off AH. AP I don't need anymore, neck was capped long time ago. Raid tactics? Watch a vid on couple of tricky bosses, rest officers feed you and you just take WA pack and do what is told to you. So hard, such effort.


I mean, if all that is some sort of insurmountable grind to you, then boy, I have no idea what else do you want. Anything less than that and it's like why even play WoW at that point? Want to recreate the glory days of WoD with 0 useful content outside raids or something?

[erifwodahs]

Pretty much this, in the past you knew that if you kill 5 bosses, items dropped will give you small boost and you will have a chance to kill 6th boss, difficulty was scaled accordingly. Now thanks to titanforging blizzard is forced to tune bosses for higher ilvls, so top guilds won't stomp the raid in first day and get bored. So in order to have chance to progress, you have to grind m+ for titanforged items, while regular loot from that few bosses you are able to kill is often useless to you.
tldr: mythic is too tight because of large ilvl range between seasons.

sure sure, so top mythic guilds with avg ilvl of 430-435, neck lvl of 55 and rank 1 or two essences can do it, but you need 3 nerfs, 70 neck, all essences rank 3, ilvl of 445 and guides/logs with the most optimal strategies. Yeaaaah, darn titanforging forcing everyone to farm before they can progress.
Tip from ex raider: Watch boss tactics, check some kill logs and check top parses for your class. This basically increases your item level by 35 in couple of hours! It's just not displayed ingame.

Sorry for sarcastic comment, but you are basically saying that you are you are cutting a tree with a knife, because you can't be asked to get a hatchet, which is couple minutes walk from where you are. Obv. skilled woodcuttes will cut it faster and won't need as sharp hatchet as you will, while you will have to sharpen yours (gain ilvl/neck ranks) but you certainly don't need to save for a damn 6 months to buy a chainsaw just to cut 3 trees which essentially is what you are doing I guess.

[Marrilaife]

The majority of players don't just quit when their guild dies. If that were the case then we'd have no players in the game at all.

Well actually the game is down to somewhere between 20-40% of the playerbase it had during peak times, and I did check on a few guilds that disbanded either in BFA or Legion and I played in them or I knew them, and yes, in fact, majority of players did quit after the disband. Meaning, less than 10 players from each disbanded guilds I can still track as playing.

In my last guild literally maybe 3 players from long time members found new guilds, the only other people who looked for new guilds were fresh trials so they were already in a mindset of looking for a guild. Everyone else checking my btag and discord list, either quit, or a handful swapped to Classic.

People actually have their limits of patience and many just can't take n-th disband and it just makes them cba and quit.

Especially with the retarded mechanism that usually looking for new guild = pay for transfer. Especially when you're looking in a specific bracket of rankings and don't want to downgrade your experience too much. It gets too expensive when you think every few months you have to fork for a transfer.

As bad Guilds(either from bad leadership or bad players) die out, less bad guilds looking for players/taking decent-good players = more readily available and quality players available to the guilds capable of clearing the content to replace their bad players that aren't capable or willing to get better.

This is a myth, the "quality players" are often blocked by not only the realm and faction restrictions (financial barriers) but often class and role, there's plenty of "good quality" melee dps of non fotm classes nobody wants, meanwhile there's always a shortage of range dps. Similar problem with healers, you just can't find a capable disc priest unless you're recruiting for a top 100 guild, there's just no recruitment pool, meanwhile all the mw monks and rdruids can't find any good guilds. The class imbalance created a complete shitshow and basically unless you're willing to endlessly reroll fotm, there's a high chance you can't find any guild to your capability. And only world top players are capable to play every class and spec at master level.

Also generally top guilds only want "geared, experienced" players with logs, you can be the greatest player ever but no logs = no invite. So you need the mid tier feeder guilds to constantly weed through playerbase. Them disbanding just causes short term cannibalism of playerbase but in the long term you run the recruitment pool to the ground. Something I can see easily on alliance side already, due to it being much smaller than horde.

This was how the game was built and what breeds competition, the remnants of the guilds rebuild and try harder.

Nah, for every player that "tries harder" there are 3 that quit. That's why the playerbase is constatly ever so slowly shrinking, halted a bit by fresh blood but there aren't that many fresh people in an old game. Anyway I've seen a trend that a lot of players come to wow, are new, start from casual, go hardcore, play at high level for an expac or 2, then vanish with no signs of them anymore. I remember a few top players of my class I followed in past expacs to get example / advice / ideas from, and a lot of them were 1-expansion brilliance then gone. The burn out is real. And there's only so many times people still have energy to stand up after being repeatedly kicked down.

As I said above, when my last guild disbanded there were many people there who played in the same guild since MOP or WOD and despite not being bad players and more than deserving to be at the rank the guild was achieving while active, so could apply somewhere else with their logs and history, they just called it quits because having to rebuild social bonds, prove yourself again, etc. is just too much fuss especially for people that are past the college age.

Young people love to see new places and make new friends but after some time you wanna settle down and the constant nomadic style of "guild disband - transfer - again start from the bottom of the pile as a trial" is just too repulsive for people to bother trying again.

I don't know why all of you think guilds disbanding is a good thing, generally what it does is erosion of community and making everything closer to pug level of toxicity. And then we hear stories about how guild masters are abusing people. Yes, if we have constant guilds crumbling and rising from the ashes, it creates a fertile ground for "treat people like pawns / cogs" type of guilds. This might be more "competitive" but creates horrible social experience, and tbh the most "competitive" guilds like the world top ones actually have fairly stable playerbase, the "throw away players like dirty socks" attitude doesn't apply to the point of even taking back players that previously left, if they have the qualities required for world top racing.

The "dog eat dog" atmosphere definitely didn't help to retain players and that's one of the reasons why many people step down from competitive play. It only helps a handful of unscrupulous individuals like those people who build a guild around them to get themselves boosted (I know at least 2 gms of CE guilds that are one of the worst players performance wise on their team, but by the privilege of "their guild their rules" they get themselves carried every time). Th only reason this comes to pass is because players don't have many options to pick when looking for a guild so they have to put up with that kind of sub par experience.

They did buff several bosses after the release. While it was usually connected to some bugfixes/mechanics not working quite as intended, it made people outside of top guilds struggle far more than they would previously. It happened with Il'gynoth, Mistress Sassz'ine Varimathras, probably something else as well.

You forgot blockade in BoD. "They won't do any abilities if we just don't interrupt them and let them channel."

Also Argus "let's stack immunity classes to ignore the chains".

They also changed Elisande / Star Augur to do more damage so guilds don't go 2-heal them.

[KaPe]

They also changed Elisande / Star Augur to do more damage so guilds don't go 2-heal them.

Funny how that didn't happen with Azshara. Even though we've been three healing it, two of those are dpsing for like 80% of the fight. Some consistency would be nice.

[Alvito]

It's fine... also what grinding?

We're clearing Mythic raids for many years at strict 2 raids a week 3 hours each schedule. Outside of that we're free for all, we just require members to complete one m+10 per week and even that we dropped nowadays, because it's largely pointless now.

We don't have any AP or shit like that requirements and at this point it's easy as pie anyway. So pray tell what grind is there? Food is cheap as fuck, gems and enchants are cheap as fuck and flasks are provided by guild. What do you need to grind there for god's sake?

Git gud.

There are 50ish 2 day CE guilds out there, not exactly common at all.

[Gaidax]

There are 50ish 2 day CE guilds out there, not exactly common at all.

Which is my point exactly. Mythic can be cleared just fine with something like 2 nights, 3 hours each raid guilds, so I just don't get this meme that's being thrown around for years how it's apparently such an insurmountable grind and shit. People just need to go ahead and do that shit if they want, you only need to be decent and in a decent guild, there is nothing more involved there.

[Marrilaife]

Funny how that didn't happen with Azshara. Even though we've been three healing it, two of those are dpsing for like 80% of the fight. Some consistency would be nice.

Yep, I really didn't expect they'd let it slide after they reacted so quickly in Nighthold with changes.

[Osmeric]

Yep, I really didn't expect they'd let it slide after they reacted so quickly in Nighthold with changes.

One possible explanation is that the internal metrics for BfA are so horrible that it's "we're fucked anyway, so let's make the raid we want. It may be our last chance."

[epLe]

Any measures that helps weed out the raidloggers is good.
Raidloggers has been the bane of so many good guilds, raiding should require commitments for the guild outside raidhours.

For progression, the players who refuse to grind rep, AP, benthics or basic consumeables don't really belong in the CE target audience.

[Ahovv]

What does that even mean? Any guild who isn't capable of killing Ashvane after a month of power progression deserves to disband? Like, that would be some elitist shittalk if I ever heard it.

lol what?

It means that if your guild cares so much about clearing mythic and doesn't make the appropriate changes (i.e. replacing bad players including officers, working with underperformers to get better, making sure everyone is on the same page as far as goals/attitude), in *that* case they deserve to disband.

Nobody is entitled to clear the most difficult content. Your guild either makes the necessary adjustments or it doesn't.

This has nothing to do with "elitism."

[Osmeric]

lol what?

It means that if your guild cares so much about clearing mythic and doesn't make the appropriate changes (i.e. replacing bad players including officers, working with underperformers to get better, making sure everyone is on the same page as far as goals/attitude), in *that* case they deserve to disband.

Nobody is entitled to clear the most difficult content. Your guild either makes the necessary adjustments or it doesn't.

This has nothing to do with "elitism."

Hilariously you just rephrased what he said, but put a moral spin on it to make yourself feel ok for saying it.

No, what you are proposing is idiotic game design. A real, successful product does not torture its customers because of bizarre gamer ethics that says they don't deserve better.

[Zyky]

Well actually the game is down to somewhere between 20-40% of the playerbase it had during peak times, and I did check on a few guilds that disbanded either in BFA or Legion and I played in them or I knew them, and yes, in fact, majority of players did quit after the disband. Meaning, less than 10 players from each disbanded guilds I can still track as playing.

You have no value to compare to as to how many players are playing this expansion or last expansion to "peak times". How many guilds did you check on? Because I'm certain you didn't check on even a fraction of the games playerbase. So really you're just talking out your ass.

In my last guild literally maybe 3 players from long time members found new guilds, the only other people who looked for new guilds were fresh trials so they were already in a mindset of looking for a guild. Everyone else checking my btag and discord list, either quit, or a handful swapped to Classic.

Again your small pool of personal experience isn't even a fraction of the playerbase.

People actually have their limits of patience and many just can't take n-th disband and it just makes them cba and quit.

I've gone though 8 top 100 guilds that disbanded over the last 12 years. Almost nobody quit, but personal experience doesn't matter when it comes to a large player pool. If people enjoy raiding, they find a new guild, it's pretty simple.

Especially with the retarded mechanism that usually looking for new guild = pay for transfer. Especially when you're looking in a specific bracket of rankings and don't want to downgrade your experience too much. It gets too expensive when you think every few months you have to fork for a transfer.

Let's address the first elephant here. If you're transferring every few months then maybe you're part of the problem. Most guilds in the top 400-600 are well established guilds with a long, fruitful history, meaning they're not going anywhere(most of the time). As for the actual payment, this falls down to if you're actually a quality player as well. If you're even moderately decent at the game it's very easy to make gold with very little time actually spent in game. You can use the gold on tokens, then tokens to fund any services you need.

This is a myth, the "quality players" are often blocked by not only the realm and faction restrictions (financial barriers) but often class and role, there's plenty of "good quality" melee dps of non fotm classes nobody wants, meanwhile there's always a shortage of range dps. Similar problem with healers, you just can't find a capable disc priest unless you're recruiting for a top 100 guild, there's just no recruitment pool, meanwhile all the mw monks and rdruids can't find any good guilds. The class imbalance created a complete shitshow and basically unless you're willing to endlessly reroll fotm, there's a high chance you can't find any guild to your capability. And only world top players are capable to play every class and spec at master level.

You're the person actually spreading myths. I mean I'm in a top 100 right now only recruiting 3 melee spots, when we already have 8 strong melee on roster. Your FotM comment only applies really to the highest echelon of guild, which really cuts off at the top 20. And even then you see many non-fotm classes being played(eg Ret Pally on the first Azshara Kill or Survival Hunter on the first Gul'dan kill). The quality of the player, in most cases, will outshine the class being played. There have been VERY few examples where you need to stack specific classes and even less where you had to stack them after you got the appropriate gear for the encounter.

Also generally top guilds only want "geared, experienced" players with logs, you can be the greatest player ever but no logs = no invite. So you need the mid tier feeder guilds to constantly weed through playerbase. Them disbanding just causes short term cannibalism of playerbase but in the long term you run the recruitment pool to the ground. Something I can see easily on alliance side already, due to it being much smaller than horde.

This is another myth. Most top guilds don't care how many kills you have, if you can parse well and also show within your logs that you can handle mechanics then thats all they care about mostly. I recently came back from a break, took 2 months off to play Classic with my real life friends, always had the intention of returning, It took me 5 days to find a guild in the top 100(with Mythic Azshara killed obviously) while I had only killed up to Ashvane. Why? Because I had logs and achievements to back up the quality of player I am. I was behind on gear and still proved myself as part of the group.

Either way, at the end of the day, most top end guilds would prefer you doing mechanics perfectly, not dying, and only getting high blue parses than getting a couple 95+ percentiles but having the majority of your logs having you die because you're trying to pad.

[Ahovv]

Hilariously you just rephrased what he said, but put a moral spin on it to make yourself feel ok for saying it.

No, what you are proposing is idiotic game design. A real, successful product does not torture its customers because of bizarre gamer ethics that says they don't deserve better.

So what you're saying is that every single player and guild is entitled to be able to clear the most difficult content in the game.

No thanks