How did pvp gearing get this bad?

[Kralljin]

There's no 2hander off flame leviathan

Ignis.
Second / Third Boss drops one.

And again, dunno what backwater you were on, but during uldur/toc there were tons of people with pvp weapons.

I don't recall that and i was playing on a big server.

Faction champs was "puggable" as in, you could, in theory, kill that boss. But maybe in a ventrilo food+flask pug.

Dunno what backwater you were on, but during toc there were tons of people that pugged ToC, even without that.
Faction champions was a joke of a boss outside of Heroic.

[Alydael]

For the first time in wow since arenas were invented, the best avenu by far for pvp gearing is pve.

The time it takes to become reasonably geared (say 420-430) to not get squashed in bgs or arenas is also the longest its been unless you m+, and even then its not really fast.

The way to get good gear in pvp is now, again for the first time in wow, rating, which is retarded in a pvp enviornment that used to encourage a level playing field.

Who at blizzard possibly thought this was a good idea? Why? It boggles the mind and i hope do a 180 in shadowlands because in the course of a single expac they managed to wreck a well built pvp reward structure that remained satisfying for years.

Blizzard had good systems in the past. Onstead of sticking with the systems and eveloving them, they listened to the very vocal minority (as they often do) and now it is a $h!T$h0w.

Don't feel bad though, all of their other reward systems bombed too. Just look at what happened with the whole azerite system debacle. So its not just pvp.....

That's what will always happen when you don't have a clear design vision on what you want to do but instead try to do "design by committee," using some old systems, some feedback and some random ideas thrown in. How the heck is that supposed to work and who thought it was a good idea?

Truthfully- they really need to just completely separate pvp and pve. PVP causes balancing issues in PVE and PVE causes gearing issues in PVP. It would be great it they "played nice" with each other, but after 15 years of this........ it is very obvious at this point that they don't. Separate them and be done with it.

[123youshowme]

Ignis.
Second / Third Boss drops one.



I don't recall that and i was playing on a big server.



Dunno what backwater you were on, but during toc there were tons of people that pugged ToC, even without that.
Faction champions was a joke of a boss outside of Heroic.

Literally on the biggest US server, illidan. And yea, before wotlk ony and icc, most people had absolute dogshit for their weapons.

You were either a raider in full gear, or a casual in a mix of pvp gear/whatever you could scrape together off the badge vendor. ToC became widely pugged in the tail end of the patch, kinda like how people pug/zerg azshara, but before that? not in the slightest.

That's also why people loved 10man icc. You got good gear for all specs before saurfang. You could reach saurfang and never go further and be content.

- - - Updated - - -

Blizzard had good systems in the past. Onstead of sticking with the systems and eveloving them, they listened to the very vocal minority (as they often do) and now it is a $h!T$h0w.

Don't feel bad though, all of their other reward systems bombed too. Just look at what happened with the whole azerite system debacle. So its not just pvp.....

That's what will always happen when you don't have a clear design vision on what you want to do but instead try to do "design by committee," using some old systems, some feedback and some random ideas thrown in. How the heck is that supposed to work and who thought it was a good idea?

Truthfully- they really need to just completely separate pvp and pve. PVP causes balancing issues in PVE and PVE causes gearing issues in PVP. It would be great it they "played nice" with each other, but after 15 years of this........ it is very obvious at this point that they don't. Separate them and be done with it.

they did that in legion and kids still complained

[Alydael]

Literally on the biggest US server, illidan. And yea, before wotlk ony and icc, most people had absolute dogshit for their weapons.

You were either a raider in full gear, or a casual in a mix of pvp gear/whatever you could scrape together off the badge vendor. ToC became widely pugged in the tail end of the patch, kinda like how people pug/zerg azshara, but before that? not in the slightest.

That's also why people loved 10man icc. You got good gear for all specs before saurfang. You could reach saurfang and never go further and be content.

- - - Updated - - -



they did that in legion and kids still complained

People will always complain, no matter what you do. That's why you have to be careful with the "player feedback" thing. If you stopped doing things because "people will complain" nothing will get done in this world.

[FelPlague]

For the first time in wow since arenas were invented, the best avenu by far for pvp gearing is pve.

The time it takes to become reasonably geared (say 420-430) to not get squashed in bgs or arenas is also the longest its been unless you m+, and even then its not really fast.

The way to get good gear in pvp is now, again for the first time in wow, rating, which is retarded in a pvp enviornment that used to encourage a level playing field.

Who at blizzard possibly thought this was a good idea? Why? It boggles the mind and i hope do a 180 in shadowlands because in the course of a single expac they managed to wreck a well built pvp reward structure that remained satisfying for years.

because players wanted to be able to pvp in their pve gear, instead of needing PVP and PVE gear.
then with that you run into the issue of PVP gear working for PVE
which means if PVP in a PVE game gives easier and better gear (Guaranteed item using currency every so often) then thats bad, really bad.
And that was fine when PVP gear was weak, cause blizz introduced scaling, but people cried "i got gear and then i didnt get much stronger, i want to curb stomp people who have lower ilvl!"

so yeah, pvp gear is random, cause if it was garunteed it would be the BIS in PVE.
and all thart happened cause people wanted more and more stuff. "I want to use PVP gear in PVE, and PVE in PVP, I want scaling, i dont want scaling"

[123youshowme]

because players wanted to be able to pvp in their pve gear, instead of needing PVP and PVE gear.
then with that you run into the issue of PVP gear working for PVE
which means if PVP in a PVE game gives easier and better gear (Guaranteed item using currency every so often) then thats bad, really bad.
And that was fine when PVP gear was weak, cause blizz introduced scaling, but people cried "i got gear and then i didnt get much stronger, i want to curb stomp people who have lower ilvl!"

so yeah, pvp gear is random, cause if it was garunteed it would be the BIS in PVE.
and all thart happened cause people wanted more and more stuff. "I want to use PVP gear in PVE, and PVE in PVP, I want scaling, i dont want scaling"

pvp azerite is bis in pve for most classes too. so... you know

[FelPlague]

pvp azerite is bis in pve for most classes too. so... you know

I mean not true at all but k.
In most cases the BIS for PVE is M+ and raiding.
"Most classes" my ass.

Going to blodomallet, and looking at the BIS azerite pieces so far NONE of the classes have PVP as their BIS, let alone the top 5.
https://puu.sh/ETInA/68babf4adc.mp4
yeah no, went over every specs BIS helmet, none of them had it in the top 5, most even top 10.

https://puu.sh/ETIqz/23825e847a.mp4
For destro the first PVP piece of gear is literally more then half way down the list.
Stop talking bollocks.

[Amariw]

Did you not PvP in Cata? I know that BiS casters then, were Fully Heroic Geared Dragonsoul + Dragonwrath, Taergosa's Rest, and Rogues were Heroic Dragonsoul + Fang of the Father. In Lich King, Str Melee was Heroic ICC geared + Shadowmourne. The only time I recall PvP gear being better was during WoD I think, when PvP gained extra stats inside Instanced PvP.

I mentioned that somewhere else in the thread. To reiterate: you're right about the wod/mop model (scaling pvp gear) was like that, and its better in my opinion. However, even in expansions with pve legendaries in arena like tbc-cata, it was a small part of the population that could use it, and the benefit, while strong, wasn't such that it was outright discouraged to get pvp gear purely from pvp. In simple terms, the problem just wasn't as severe as today.

Right now there's really no reason to get pvp geae for pvp, m+ is simply much easier and more reliable for the majority. That's bad design, both for 3000+ mmr peeps and lower.

[Kralljin]

Literally on the biggest US server, illidan. And yea, before wotlk ony and icc, most people had absolute dogshit for their weapons.

Must have had one shit of a pug scene if they couldn't clear ToC.

And that still doesn't magically give them 1,8k rating, if people did PvP for that, got to 1,8k and grinded out those arena points, i think it's fine for them to have those weapons.
Because the average person doesn't get 1,8k if they just "fuck around" in 2v2 a bit.

[Amariw]

because players wanted to be able to pvp in their pve gear, instead of needing PVP and PVE gear.
then with that you run into the issue of PVP gear working for PVE
which means if PVP in a PVE game gives easier and better gear (Guaranteed item using currency every so often) then thats bad, really bad.
And that was fine when PVP gear was weak, cause blizz introduced scaling, but people cried "i got gear and then i didnt get much stronger, i want to curb stomp people who have lower ilvl!"

so yeah, pvp gear is random, cause if it was garunteed it would be the BIS in PVE.
and all thart happened cause people wanted more and more stuff. "I want to use PVP gear in PVE, and PVE in PVP, I want scaling, i dont want scaling"

Doesnt gear scaling wod style solve all of that though? You can pve in pvp gear, but you're better off getting pve gear. You can pvp in pve gear, but its better to get pvp gear. Simple, efficent, and solves what you raised. Wish it'd come back.

[FelPlague]

Doesnt gear scaling wod style solve all of that though? You can pve in pvp gear, but you're better off getting pve gear. You can pvp in pve gear, but its better to get pvp gear. Simple, efficent, and solves what you raised. Wish it'd come back.

Because people cried about scaling, so they removed it, because people creid "i got gear yet people will less gear can still fight me, i want to be able to curbstomp people i outgear!"
and that was a HUGE complaint people had, to the point they removed it, because people were mad about being unable to "curbstomp people who have put in less effort"

[erifwodahs]

The way to get good gear in pvp is now, again for the first time in wow, rating, which is retarded in a pvp enviornment that used to encourage a level playing field.

Sure buddy, when did you start playing?
PvP is a minigame in a game which focuses on PvE, generations of players have been saying, that WoW was never a good pvp game.

[deadman1]

Ion is stubborn and incompetent and he is going to kill the game.

[123youshowme]

I mean not true at all but k.
In most cases the BIS for PVE is M+ and raiding.
"Most classes" my ass.

Going to blodomallet, and looking at the BIS azerite pieces so far NONE of the classes have PVP as their BIS, let alone the top 5.

There's always warfront/gladiator pieces in the top 5 attainable combos which are +/- 1% of each other.

https://bloodmallet.com/index.html#r...its&type=chest
take this for example

1 raid chest
WQ (unattainable)
WQ (unattainable)
Residuum
PVP

2100 vs 200k residuum vs mythic court vs something that actually can't happenx2

- - - Updated - - -

Must have had one shit of a pug scene if they couldn't clear ToC.

And that still doesn't magically give them 1,8k rating, if people did PvP for that, got to 1,8k and grinded out those arena points, i think it's fine for them to have those weapons.
Because the average person doesn't get 1,8k if they just "fuck around" in 2v2 a bit.

I know you like to cherry pick what you reply to but weapons from the previous season were attainable also, you know.
So again, pvp weapons were something a lot of people used.

[FelPlague]

There's always warfront/gladiator pieces in the top 5 attainable combos which are +/- 1% of each other.

https://bloodmallet.com/index.html#r...its&type=chest
take this for example

1 raid chest
WQ (unattainable)
WQ (unattainable)
Residuum
PVP

2100 vs 200k residuum vs mythic court vs something that actually can't happenx2

Warfront is no pvp my dude...


LOL WTF!?
that is not a PVP chest, THAT IS A WARFRONT CHEST MY DUDE
https://www.wowhead.com/item=165440/...s=4:136:249:21


So.

1 raid chest.
WQ
WQ
M+/Residuum
Warfront alliance
warfront horde
WQ
M+/Residuum
Warfront horde
WQ
M+/Residuum
M+/Residuum
Warfront
WQ
Warfront Alliance
Warfront horde
M+/Residuum
WQ
THEN YOUR FIRST PVP PIECE



Those are the PVP pieces, notice how far down they are?

[Luxeley]

I disagree.

This is my current gear from just easy getting the low hanging fruits:



I would even wear more rival pieces with same ilvl, but the sockets from my m+ and mythic items made the decision.

Thats pretty balanced for me and I just cap my weekly in pvp and nothing more. The pvp items are the ones that came basicly for free with the least amount of playtime.

The first 2 season in BfA were ridiculous stupid. The highest ilvl and the best trinkets with high ilvl were seen on pvp players with just moderate rating. The amount of free pvp loot with above raid powerlevels were just stupid. It forced basicly everyone to do at least the weekly pvp chest and some 2min classes were forced to do pvp to get trinkets as there was no alternative in m+ or mythic raid.

Additionally some of the best Azerite combinations are only available from PVP, nothing from mythic raiding nor m+ vendor loot comes even close to this. Its stupid and forces pve players to do pvp just to get PVE azerite pieces that got zero ussage in pvp.

Even if we look at the current season you are wrong, but if we compare the whole bfa loot shittshow from pvp free epics, you are just trolling.

You don't have a single piece of pvp gear, not one piece. Why even bother capping in Pvp. Basically, you just proved the OP's point.

[123youshowme]

Warfront is no pvp my dude...


LOL WTF!?
that is not a PVP chest, THAT IS A WARFRONT CHEST MY DUDE
https://www.wowhead.com/item=165440/...s=4:136:249:21


So.

1 raid chest.
WQ
WQ
M+/Residuum
Warfront



Those are the PVP pieces, notice how far down they are?

Did you also notice that the pvp pieces aren't scaled to 445?
jesus christ you're slow. You can get 445 pvp azerite you know.

[Amariw]

So you had
TBC season 1-2
Wotlk seasons
Cata season 1
_________
Wod season 1

seems like it's more the rule than the exception

Lol i dunno why the pvpers can't just come out and say they want their free full set of gear, like fam it aint that deep.
All of the meandering they do to just come back around and say that "they liked when they could easily get extremely good gear for minimal effort"

Because its not about getting easy gear, its about being able to play the parts of the game you like. I get easy gear from m+ every season, about as easy for me (as someone who likes m+ and makes his own groups) as gear from pvp ever was. The fact m+ kinda invalidates everything that isn't mythic raiding is a bigger issue then this, but it hurts pvp a lot.

So for me, i have no problem getting adequate gear each season with minimal effort as it is. But many pvpers just dont like pve. There is no reason to force them into it and wreck its reward structure. There is also no reason to force pvers to pvp, which is why a separate gear model (pvp power/resilience) works best and has already worked in the past.

Hope i cleared it up

[FelPlague]

Did you also notice that the pvp pieces aren't scaled to 445?
jesus christ you're slow. You can get 445 pvp azerite you know.

Alright then lets remove the possibility of 445 to make it even. so if they are even the PVP must be the BIS right?

i mean 13th BIS but ok.

[123youshowme]

Because its not about getting easy gear, its about being able to play the parts of the game you like. I get easy gear from m+ every season, about as easy for me (as someone who likes m+ and makes his own groups) as gear from pvp ever was. The fact m+ kinda invalidates everything that isn't mythic raiding is a bigger issue then this, but it hurts pvp a lot.

So for me, i have no problem getting adequate gear each season with minimal effort as it is. But many pvpers just dont like pve. There is no reason to force them into it and wreck its reward structure. There is also no reason to force pvers to pvp, which is why a separate gear model (pvp power/resilience) works best and has already worked in the past.

Hope i cleared it up

why does it hurt pvp?
You had to pve for pvp gear before, wasn't the end of the world