What do you expect from Shadowlands combat?

[RelaZ]

It's there because of WPVP and Esports. The fights went on too long so snip.

That's most certainly not why they implemented the new batch of GCD changes in Legion.

Back before the current GCD was implemented, 2v2, 3v3 would last for a tremendously long time despite having little to no GCDs.

lolwut. No. Are you even refering to the same GCD changes that the rest of us are talking about?

https://www.engadget.com/2009/01/08/...arena-matches/

Lul. This is 10+ years old and refers to TBC arenas. Which yes, were very long (especially 2s could go on for hours). But it certainly had nothing to do with GCDs and instead had everything to do with the damage vs healing potential tuning of certain comps (mainly compositions involving resto druid). And putting more GCDs on things would not have made it any faster.

There are tons of "Blue Posts" by Watcher and Ion.

https://www.wowhead.com/news=282970/...le-for-azeroth

This is getting boring

You are completely clueless.

Blizzard's reasoning was CD stacking made certain kills too fast, not too slow and made it so that you didn't have to make "hard choices". That's most of Ion's/Watcher's motive for making this change (ps: "they" are the same person). It was all about slowing down the game. That was the entire problem. People were getting blown up without the chance to even defend themselves (the Legion version of Recklessness being the poster child for this).

Ion quote arguing for the GCD change: ..."If you're in an arena match and are low"...

While the last GCD change was done by Blizzard to try to appease PvPers (mind you arena players, not esports players), it most certainly failed to do so. Most arena players (and PvPers in general) were negative towards this solution even prior to it going live. After the change went live the entire community almost immediately hated it (including the few who had praised it).

The arena community would've much prefered the outlier abilities that were causing problems just be tuned damage-wise (pvp only of course).

This is a classic case of Blizzard taking player feedback and implementing some weird change / system / mechanic that causes 20 new problems instead of just doing the simple fix players are asking for / expecting. 1 step forward, 2 steps backwards - always with Blizzard.

Players: Hey Blizzard class X, Y and Z are just melting people in mere seconds in rated PvP. Please nerf their OP offensive CDs!
Blizzard: We hear you. We'll fix it.
Also Blizzard: Hey guys we're putting a GCD on tons of abilities, ruining the entire combat flow of all utility, defensive and offensive abilities.
Players: But... no... that's not what we wanted.
Blizzard: Sucks to be you! That is what we're doing!
Players: Really, no this is not good.
Blizzard: Okay, maybe we'll revert some of it, but only some of it.
Players: But... can't you just solve the problem we described in the easy way instead of this convoluted and clunky solution which has massive impact on gameplay (that we don't like)?
Blizzard: ...No.

[Timewalker]

Nothing. That way I won't be disappointed.

[Warning]

Nothing. That way I won't be disappointed.

Sounds optimistic.

Expecting it'll be more like BFA than I'd like. Hoping it'll be more like Wotlk than I think.
Bigger damage all the time and especially fillers like frostbolt, shadowbolt and incinerate doing real damage, less CD based.

[Kralljin]

Players: Hey Blizzard class X, Y and Z are just melting people in mere seconds in rated PvP. Please nerf their OP offensive CDs!

I feel more that there is no magic solution to this problem.

The core issue is the tug of war between sustain and burst, if it's impossible to burst people down, you just have a meta where everything is about Healer Mana and half of the game is trying to mindlessly maximize damage while stopping the enemy healer from drinking.

If you enable people to burst down the enemy, the most games end far too quickly.
And Arena just seems to constantly lapse between those two extremes, the sweet spot just isn't there anymore.


In my opinion, this move was trying to emulate a "slower pace" without actually using the gameplay that made the game "slower".

If i look back to Vanilla / TBC, the massive difference between Retail and them is the fact that every single button had a huge impact.
If you pressed a damage button back then, it did a lot of damage, but it wasn't like that you (were able) to constantly press that button, it had a CD, or was a hardcast.

It's this weird juxtaposition, in earlier days of WoW, i pressed fewer buttons for a greater effect, in Retail i am pressing more buttons but achieving minor effect unless they're tied with extremely potent offensive CD's.

[RelaZ]

I feel more that there is no magic solution to this problem.

I disagree, at least in this case. In this case it was really just a matter of nerfing a few of DPS CDs by a few percentages (again, PvP only of course). A short term solution.

The core issue is the tug of war between sustain and burst, if it's impossible to burst people down, you just have a meta where everything is about Healer Mana and half of the game is trying to mindlessly maximize damage while stopping the enemy healer from drinking.

If you enable people to burst down the enemy, the most games end far too quickly.
And Arena just seems to constantly lapse between those two extremes, the sweet spot just isn't there anymore.

Yes, this is of course a problem - and WotLK really had this down good. But the reason we have this problem is because the gap between no CD damage and DPS CD damage is so big. And the reason for that is that in PvE (and I guess in PvP too to some extent) a lot of people really like to see big numbers when they pop their cooldowns. As a result, cooldowns have become more powerful and there are more of them / they have lower CD (since otherwise you don't get to see those big numbers as often).

However, that naturally causes this problem of an extreme difference in damage output between no CD damage and CD damage ensuring we end up in this extreme (no one dies ever until CDs are popped).

In my opinion, this move was trying to emulate a "slower pace" without actually using the gameplay that made the game "slower".

If i look back to Vanilla / TBC, the massive difference between Retail and them is the fact that every single button had a huge impact.

You're completely right, TBC is what they're trying to emulate (in a very strange way). And of course they were trying to get PvPers to agree to/like this change by selling it as some strange solution to a few (very select) CDs being very powerful in some classes kits.

I completely disagree on this "slower pace" being the right way forward. TBC PvP sucked (it was good for its time, looking back - it's bad), trying to emulate the speed of TBC is a terrible idea. The sense of danger was not there in TBC, and that's what I feel this change emulates.

It's this weird juxtaposition, in earlier days of WoW, i pressed fewer buttons for a greater effect, in Retail i am pressing more buttons but achieving minor effect unless they're tied with extremely potent offensive CD's.

Yeah, I agree. I wish they would go back a couple of expansions (WotLK & Cata) and try to re-capture that magic (where the relative difference between CDs and no CD damage wasn't as huge, and there was a constant fear of dying). But I'm afraid they never will because PvErs love to see big numbers on their CDs (relative to their normal damage).

[Kralljin]

I disagree, at least in this case. In this case it was really just a matter of nerfing a few of DPS CDs by a few percentages (again, PvP only of course). A short term solution.

As said, there's however a good chance that the meta then swings in the complete opposite direction and becomes too much focused on sustain.
It's sort of the problem of PvP Balance, once you nerf a given counter to something, you basically open the door for what was previously countered becoming OP.

a lot of people really like to see big numbers when they pop their cooldowns. As a result, cooldowns have become more powerful and there are more of them / they have lower CD (since otherwise you don't get to see those big numbers as often).

The general issue at hand is an overall powercreep of abilities.

If you look back, something such as Nature's Swiftness (a.k.a. your next cast will be Instant) was a 3min CD, that would be a joke nowadays.
It's also Blizzards uncreativity of their design of CD's, take something like Ascendance for Elemental, that CD was never a big issue in PvP because it required you to constantly hardcast Lava burst, yet because that was so easy to stop, it never became a problem.

Meanwhile, there's also a CD that simply increases your damage done to a target by 30% flat, on a class that excels at controlling people and avoiding cc's.

[nonameelf]

The most fun I've had has been in Vanilla... rotations felt like they made sense..

What?

Vanilla "rotations" are like: "Spam Frostbolt until the boss dies"

BfA classes are shit, but come on, vanilla? Really?

[Nerovar]

This is a classic case of Blizzard taking player feedback and implementing some weird change / system / mechanic that causes 20 new problems instead of just doing the simple fix players are asking for / expecting. 1 step forward, 2 steps backwards - always with Blizzard.

Reminds me of the time (I think it was during MoP) when Demonology was performing too high because of some weird interaction between their imps and a certain PvE trinket. What was their response to that? Nerf Demonology to a ridiculous degree so they're useless in all areas of the game.


On topic: I think Blizzard needs to at least revert the GCD changes. It's probably the single most stupid thing I've ever seen in this game. Also seeing as they don't plan on having any real class reworks, I wouldn't get my hopes up about combat (especially in PvP) improving. To be honest, I'm probably gonna skip Shadowlands because of that.

What?

Vanilla "rotations" are like: "Spam Frostbolt until the boss dies"

BfA classes are shit, but come on, vanilla? Really?

Sure, you spam a single ability a lot of the time but that can still feel more impactful than spamming 7 abilities that all do basically the same thing without any "bang" behind them. This obviously doesn't hold true for every BfA spec but I think it gets the point across.

[FAILoZOFF]

I expect "nothing" and probably would still get disappointed... - that is if I even cared at this point.

[MasterHamster]

Like fighting air without any impact
I.e like it's been ever since WoD

Then again I most likely won't purchase Shadowlands regardless

[Dundebuns]

I expect they'll include loads of old spells for every spec which really have no bearing on that specs play style. So getting wrath for feral druids etc. So more of the same.

[Grimbold21]

No significant overhauls, so enhancement wilm likely remain the different flavor of a fury warrior it is now

[nonameelf]

Sure, you spam a single ability a lot of the time but that can still feel more impactful than spamming 7 abilities that all do basically the same thing without any "bang" behind them. This obviously doesn't hold true for every BfA spec but I think it gets the point across.

There are classes in BfA with 7 rotational abilities?

Both BfA and Classic class design is bad, but Classic is just far, far worse.

[Nerovar]

There are classes in BfA with 7 rotational abilities?

Both BfA and Classic class design is bad, but Classic is just far, far worse.

That was an example but I'm sure you could theoretically find one if you pick the right talents.

[Weeps]

That's most certainly not why they implemented the new batch of GCD changes in Legion.


lolwut. No. Are you even refering to the same GCD changes that the rest of us are talking about?

Lul. This is 10+ years old and refers to TBC arenas. Which yes, were very long (especially 2s could go on for hours). But it certainly had nothing to do with GCDs and instead had everything to do with the damage vs healing potential tuning of certain comps (mainly compositions involving resto druid). And putting more GCDs on things would not have made it any faster.



You are completely clueless.

Blizzard's reasoning was CD stacking made certain kills too fast, not too slow and made it so that you didn't have to make "hard choices". That's most of Ion's/Watcher's motive for making this change (ps: "they" are the same person). It was all about slowing down the game. That was the entire problem. People were getting blown up without the chance to even defend themselves (the Legion version of Recklessness being the poster child for this).



While the last GCD change was done by Blizzard to try to appease PvPers (mind you arena players, not esports players), it most certainly failed to do so. Most arena players (and PvPers in general) were negative towards this solution even prior to it going live. After the change went live the entire community almost immediately hated it (including the few who had praised it).

The arena community would've much prefered the outlier abilities that were causing problems just be tuned damage-wise (pvp only of course).

This is a classic case of Blizzard taking player feedback and implementing some weird change / system / mechanic that causes 20 new problems instead of just doing the simple fix players are asking for / expecting. 1 step forward, 2 steps backwards - always with Blizzard.

Players: Hey Blizzard class X, Y and Z are just melting people in mere seconds in rated PvP. Please nerf their OP offensive CDs!
Blizzard: We hear you. We'll fix it.
Also Blizzard: Hey guys we're putting a GCD on tons of abilities, ruining the entire combat flow of all utility, defensive and offensive abilities.
Players: But... no... that's not what we wanted.
Blizzard: Sucks to be you! That is what we're doing!
Players: Really, no this is not good.
Blizzard: Okay, maybe we'll revert some of it, but only some of it.
Players: But... can't you just solve the problem we described in the easy way instead of this convoluted and clunky solution which has massive impact on gameplay (that we don't like)?
Blizzard: ...No.

Nice, but nope!

- - - Updated - - -

I disagree, at least in this case. In this case it was really just a matter of nerfing a few of DPS CDs by a few percentages (again, PvP only of course). A short term solution.

Yes, this is of course a problem - and WotLK really had this down good. But the reason we have this problem is because the gap between no CD damage and DPS CD damage is so big. And the reason for that is that in PvE (and I guess in PvP too to some extent) a lot of people really like to see big numbers when they pop their cooldowns. As a result, cooldowns have become more powerful and there are more of them / they have lower CD (since otherwise you don't get to see those big numbers as often).

However, that naturally causes this problem of an extreme difference in damage output between no CD damage and CD damage ensuring we end up in this extreme (no one dies ever until CDs are popped).

You're completely right, TBC is what they're trying to emulate (in a very strange way). And of course they were trying to get PvPers to agree to/like this change by selling it as some strange solution to a few (very select) CDs being very powerful in some classes kits.

I completely disagree on this "slower pace" being the right way forward. TBC PvP sucked (it was good for its time, looking back - it's bad), trying to emulate the speed of TBC is a terrible idea. The sense of danger was not there in TBC, and that's what I feel this change emulates.

Yeah, I agree. I wish they would go back a couple of expansions (WotLK & Cata) and try to re-capture that magic (where the relative difference between CDs and no CD damage wasn't as huge, and there was a constant fear of dying). But I'm afraid they never will because PvErs love to see big numbers on their CDs (relative to their normal damage).

Again, nope! You're entirely INCORRECT! EVERYTHING!

[RelaZ]

Nice, but nope!

- - - Updated - - -



Again, nope! You're entirely INCORRECT! EVERYTHING!

Are you OK?