Tier Sets: "You think you want them back... but you don't."

[gd8]

I don't care about set bonuses whatsoever but I want class-themed gear back. all this raid-themed gear is stupid and doesn't fit most classes/races

[Taeldorian]

you raided mythic 2.5 years ago huh?
So you must remember all the non-tier being denched every boss, right?

Azerite also fixes that. None of your suggestions fixes tier, it's just "wahhhhhhhhh i want cosmetics and I'll do anything to make it happen" which is "fine" (it's not) but don't pretend like tier was a good system.

You want class sets, that's fine. Tier was bad, though.

I personally prefer dungeon themed drops because how the fuck is ragnaros holding potentially 9 different class unique items. That makes no fucking sense.

If you go back and look at any of my replies to you, I never once said tier was a good system. I wasn’t even arguing for it originally, I replied to you about the cosmetic side of tier sets and then disagreed with the points you made against tier. I don’t really care for tier at all.

Youre more than welcome to look up my raiding history and see for yourself. I do remember the negatives of tier. I remember huge issues with tier and TF as well, I had plenty myself. In TOS the Hpal mythic set was pretty insane and I got 2 big TFs in my shoulder slots but my tier wasn’t forged at all so it felt pretty bad. It was kind of offset because the bonus was good and felt good but it was still noticeable.

Regardless, I mostly care about the class sets. It was really fun to watch all of the sets get released here or on wowhead and go through the bad ones and good ones. Got me really hyped. I remember an insane hype train when they said they’ll be bringing back old tier from BC and updating it. There’s a lot of love for class sets and they really didn’t live up to what they said armor would be like in this expansion. Nothing is innovative and a lot of it looks bad/basic, only this time that’s the only set we get.

[123youshowme]

I don't care about set bonuses whatsoever but I want class-themed gear back. all this raid-themed gear is stupid and doesn't fit most classes/races

cus it's supposed to be spoils of war from a dungeon. you aren't walking into armani exchange lmao

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If you go back and look at any of my replies to you, I never once said tier was a good system. I wasn’t even arguing for it originally, I replied to you about the cosmetic side of tier sets and then disagreed with the points you made against tier. I don’t really care for tier at all.

Youre more than welcome to look up my raiding history and see for yourself. I do remember the negatives of tier. I remember huge issues with tier and TF as well, I had plenty myself. In TOS the Hpal mythic set was pretty insane and I got 2 big TFs in my shoulder slots but my tier wasn’t forged at all so it felt pretty bad.

Regardless, I mostly care about the class sets. It was really fun to watch all of the sets get released and go through the bad ones and good ones. Got me really hyped. I remember an insane hype train when they said they’ll be bringing back old tier from BC and updating it. There’s a lot of love for class sets and they really didn’t live up to what they said armor would be like in this expansion. Nothing is innovative and a lot of it looks bad, only this time that’s the only set we get.

ok but

So if you want tier sets to be the strongest thing possible stat wise just add all the stats on them evenly. 150 crit 150 haste 150 mast etc. There are many solutions to that problem. Titanforging was also absolutely an issue, getting a heroic tier piece that’s regular ilvl and then soon after getting a titanforged piece in that same slot not only felt bad but made the “this is an upgrade that I can’t use” issue much worse. Without TF, having the ilvls be equal you can easily fix the stats on tier and have it be more powerful than regular pieces.

Ah yes so they fixed the issue by completely removing shoulder armor, helmet armor and chest armor that isn’t azerite. And you think they couldn’t have done that with tier sets? It’s a shitty fix if you wanna call it one but you can do the exact same thing for tier sets. I don’t think the solution to the problem is -only- being able to get azerite.

Also, the only reason this was a problem in legion was due to TF. You’d get a TFed piece that wasn’t tier while your tier piece was normal ilvl and it would feel pretty shitty. Removing tier sets just to keep TF is an awful move imo. Tier sets were completely fine before TF, there was usually nothing better than your tier hence BiS lists existing.

sounds like you really want tier sets and didn't say anything about cosmetics until just now

[Onikaroshi]

I miss raid tier set bonus's, raiding hasn't been the same this expansion between PL and no tier sets....

[Taeldorian]

cus it's supposed to be spoils of war from a dungeon. you aren't walking into armani exchange lmao

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ok but






sounds like you really want tier sets and didn't say anything about cosmetics until just now

My very first reply to you was about the class sets. After that I argued against your points for liking azerite but not tier because that’s where the conversation went. Whether I like it or not, I think there’s a very obvious solution to fixing the stat problem with tier. With TF gone that also removes the only other real issue it had. Just because I believe there’s a solution and believe your points against it can be fixed doesn’t mean I want it back or care for it too much.

As I said earlier, with the removal of TF they’re able to experiment with gear. Corruption is the start of them trying shit out. If they wanna keep trying shit that’s fine. I also don’t think azerite is better than tier, not even remotely. If you’re going to tell me about all the complaints tier got in the past you have to look at how hated azerite has been throughout BfA.

[123youshowme]

My very first reply to you was about the class sets. After that I argued against your points for liking azerite but not tier because that’s where the conversation went. Whether I like it or not, I think there’s a very obvious solution to fixing the stat problem with tier. With TF gone that also removes the only other real issue it had. Just because I believe there’s a solution and believe your points against it can be fixed doesn’t mean I want it back or care for it too much.

As I said earlier, with the removal of TF they’re able to experiment with gear. Corruption is the start of them trying shit out. If they wanna keep trying shit that’s fine. I also don’t think azerite is better than tier, not even remotely. If you’re going to tell me about all the complaints tier got in the past you have to look at how hated azerite has been throughout BfA.

I did.

You wanna compare a year of hate vs 13 years of hate? lmao ok.
You clearly don't remember 4pc pve 4pc pvp geared players in tbc,
or raid geared 5's teams in wotlk,
or tier in lfr in dragon soul
or "my old tier is better than my new tier, wtf blizz"
or "my tier isnt as good as his wtf blizz"
or "i don't want to change my spec blizz, wtf"
or "why am i FORCED to do raid for tier"
or "i have to raid to be viable in m+ and I hate that" or "why can't 5mans drop tier"
or "why is my tier useless but i still have to wear it"


there's been at least 2-3 different individual whines in every expansion wrt tier

[Kralljin]

Ah, but you did get expanded character progression in legion, you were clearly just too dumb to notice.

Yeah, your reading comprehension sucks.

I never said there was no expanded character progression in Legion, they did expand the Artifact system, which i even wrote in that post.
Both the new traits in 7.2 and the Netherlight Crucible were an expansion of the Artifact system.

But with Azerite, they essentially abandoned the system after 8.1 and turned to the Essence system, there's no expansion there post 8.1.
And the only expansion in 8.1 was a fix to the fundamental issue that a single Azerite trait was the deciding factor whether a piece was good or bad, which is pretty bad combined with the RNG acquisition.

The fact that Azerite Armor has been detached from AP shows how the system has failed, the system wasn't just supposed to replace tier sets, it was supposed to be the Artifact equivalent of BfA, yet the system bombed to hard that Blizzard implemented the Essence system.


You had expanded character progression in Legion - through the Artifact system in 7.2 and 7.3, none of which came even close to the Essence system in terms of impact (because it wasn't necessary).
In BfA, they brought Azerite to a functional state in 8.1, then stopped to expand the system after that, instead they focused on the Essence system, because it was the better system to focus on.

The primary intended source for pve azerite was the raid.

No, Blizzard just had no fucking clue how to handle Azerite for non raiders, took them until 8.1 to figure that out.
Also, amazing customization of the system if you had only a single piece to choose from.

You didn't get handout gear for not raiding before, why should you now? lmao

We are having it since 8.1...?

It was a largely cheese rotation that is no different to the wax and wane funny business in Legion. That also resulted in quick nerfs (though that was addressed through wax and wane nerfs).

Doesn't change the fact that this exposed a design flaw that had to be addressed.
You basically have to watch out with every trait: "Does this break the rotation if you stack it?", with Tier sets, that restriction never existed because there was no way to stack a single tier set bonus.

You're using it to say the azerite system as a whole has flaws, but it still doesnt factor into direct tier set comparisons because said defensive benefits did not exist in tier sets.

It seems that you simply don't get what i'm trying to highlight with this: having various Azerite traits dilutes the effect of each trait.
It doesn't have anything to do with defensive traits in particular, they're just an example to highlight this issue.
Because it's easier to understand as there are multiple general defensive traits, as opposed to the outer ring effects where class specific mechanics play a role.

Tier sets at a design level had to be different across tiers. Azerite armour does not suffer that same restriction.

In order to have any sort of customization, you needed multiple Azerite traits as well, so that's moot.
Being different from the previous is really a low bar in terms of design restrictions.

They were creative enough to even hand out Legendaries in Legion, you could have taken some of those and turned into a Tier set bonus.
If they turned tier set bonuses into baseline effects or talents in previous expansions, that might as well go the other way.

[123youshowme]

Yeah, your reading comprehension sucks.

I never said there was no expanded character progression in Legion, they did expand the Artifact system, which i even wrote in that post.
Both the new traits in 7.2 and the Netherlight Crucible were an expansion of the Artifact system.

But with Azerite, they essentially abandoned the system after 8.1 and turned to the Essence system, there's no expansion there post 8.1.
And the only expansion in 8.1 was a fix to the fundamental issue that a single Azerite trait was the deciding factor whether a piece was good or bad, which is pretty bad combined with the RNG acquisition.

The fact that Azerite Armor has been detached from AP shows how the system has failed, the system wasn't just supposed to replace tier sets, it was supposed to be the Artifact equivalent of BfA, yet the system bombed to hard that Blizzard implemented the Essence system.


You had expanded character progression in Legion - through the Artifact system in 7.2 and 7.3, none of which came even close to the Essence system in terms of impact (because it wasn't necessary).
In BfA, they brought Azerite to a functional state in 8.1, then stopped to expand the system after that, instead they focused on the Essence system, because it was the better system to focus on.



No, Blizzard just had no fucking clue how to handle Azerite for non raiders, took them until 8.1 to figure that out.
Also, amazing customization of the system if you had only a single piece to choose from.



We are having it since 8.1...?



Doesn't change the fact that this exposed a design flaw that had to be addressed.
You basically have to watch out with every trait: "Does this break the rotation if you stack it?", with Tier sets, that restriction never existed because there was no way to stack a single tier set bonus.



It seems that you simply don't get what i'm trying to highlight with this: having various Azerite traits dilutes the effect of each trait.
It doesn't have anything to do with defensive traits in particular, they're just an example to highlight this issue.
Because it's easier to understand as there are multiple general defensive traits, as opposed to the outer ring effects where class specific mechanics play a role.



In order to have any sort of customization, you needed multiple Azerite traits as well, so that's moot.
Being different from the previous is really a low bar in terms of design restrictions.

They were creative enough to even hand out Legendaries in Legion, you could have taken some of those and turned into a Tier set bonus.
If they turned tier set bonuses into baseline effects or talents in previous expansions, that might as well go the other way.

The expansion system is the heart of azeroth, pal.

Notice how if you take off your neck, the azerite stops working? yeah? yeah.

The neck is the system, not the azerite gear.



Damn, it's like you infuse your neck with power to unlock latent traits on pieces of gear, or something.

Mod Edit: Don't use giant fonts in this fashion.

[Kralljin]

The expansion system is the heart of azeroth, pal.

Which didn't do jackshit until 8.2, it was a stat stick that went up by +2Ilvl each level.
The Azerite armor was supposed to give the level an actual meaning.

The HoA is just the enabler, Azerite Armor was the actual system for the power boost.

[123youshowme]

Which didn't do jackshit until 8.2, it was a stat stick that went up by +2Ilvl each level.
The Azerite armor was supposed to give the level an actual meaning.

The HoA is just the enabler, Azerite Armor was the actual system for the power boost.

So in other words

it's like you infuse your neck with power to unlock latent traits on pieces of gear, or something.

whether or not you want to admit it, the HoA is the artifact. That's what the story is built around. That's the piece you empower, the piece you don't replace.



Jesus christ.

[Kralljin]

whether or not you want to admit it, the HoA is the artifact. That's what the story is built around. That's the piece you empower, the piece you don't replace.

It was literally just a single item so you didn't have to level three seperate Artifacts, that's it.

You can beat around the bush all you like, but that thing didn't do anything extraordinary without Azerite Armor until 8.2.
They previewed the HoA alongside the Azerite Armor back at Blizzcon 17, these items were designed to supplement each other, the HoA powers up the Azerite armor, which then boosts your character.

One didn't work without the other, if you deleted Azerite armor pre 8.2, the HoA would have done what?
Nothing.

[123youshowme]

It was literally just a single item so you didn't have to level three seperate Artifacts, that's it.

You can beat around the bush all you like, but that thing didn't do anything extraordinary without Azerite Armor until 8.2.
They previewed the HoA alongside the Azerite Armor back at Blizzcon 17, these systems were designed to supplement each other, the HoA powers up the Azerite armor, which then boosts your character.

One didn't work without the other.

Thanks for admitting that you were wrong.
The HoA is the artifact.

Now moving along, pre 8.1 noone but raiders got fun toys, and that's how the game has always been. Look at emerald nightmare, look at highmaul, look at mogu'shan.
All special gear is done like that (pvpers also got good azerite in season 1)

Only wq shitters were at any sort of "disadvantage" but it's not like you need heroic gear to do world quests

[Kralljin]

Thanks for admitting that you were wrong.
The HoA is the artifact.

Yes, a stat stick artifact, how amazing.

Now moving along, pre 8.1 noone but raiders got fun toys,

By "fun toys" you mean Azerite armor with the wrong traits?

Look at emerald nightmare, look at highmaul, look at mogu'shan.

Raid Instances that famously did not have any tier sets, but yeah, we got "fun toys" there.

[123youshowme]

Yes, a stat stick artifact, how amazing.



By "fun toys" you mean Azerite armor with the wrong traits?



Raid Instances that famously did not have any tier sets, but yeah, we got "fun toys" there.

You got gear that actually scaled past blues. Trinkets/weapons, stuff you couldn't get, hell, at all.
You don't remember that if you didn't raid in those expansions you basically wore LFR purples or blues, huh?

Hell, pre-legion, you were basically doomed to a shit weapon if you didn't raid. Doomed to blues and horribly itemized scraps off of a valor vendor

[Kralljin]

You got gear that actually scaled past blues. Trinkets/weapons, stuff you couldn't get, hell, at all.

You do realize that M+ was already a thing in Season 1 and gave items equivalent to heroic?
I mean, even M+0 already gave epic loot, if you seemingly care about that.

You don't remember that if you didn't raid in those expansions you basically wore LFR purples or blues, huh?

I think the last time i cared about the rarity of items was in TBC.
Like, using the rarity of items as argument is just laughable and further confirms to me that you're just shitposting.

[123youshowme]

You do realize that M+ was already a thing in Season 1 and gave items equivalent to heroic?
I mean, even M+0 already gave epic loot, if you seemingly care about that.



I think the last time i cared about the rarity of items was in TBC.
Like, using the rarity of items as argument is just laughable and further confirms to me that you're just shitposting.

If you took a look at the itemlevel and rarity of gear, up until this expansion, actually, all gear under a certain itemlevel was blue. For instance, in wotlk, everything <200 was blue, as far as drops went.
I could go as far to say "you would have a shit itemlevel weapon" but "blue" conveys the point in even less words.

Point is; in every expansion prior to legion, you'd have an insanely low itemlevel weapon (even in legion, you had epic relics vs blue ones in the first tier of content, idr legion itemlevels but blue meant the itemlevel was sub a certain number, could be 840)

Not even gonna get started on the difference in stat budget, which thankfully was gone by wotlk.

This is the first expansion where they rebalanced later gear into being blue (wq/heroic gear are higher itemlevel but still blue, blue azerite has less rings) so blue vs epic is a perfectly valid description of the difference in itemlevel of an item.


Azerite in S1 is just like azerite in S2-3. Either you raided for a guaranteed drop or you were subject to the mistress of rng. They toned it down a little with you being able to purchase a random piece, but that in itself is kinda a botched system bc I 100% don't think that danny deplete should even have access to M10/mythic azerite but that's another discussion for another day.

[Great Destiny Man]

Doesn't change the fact that this exposed a design flaw that had to be addressed.
You basically have to watch out with every trait: "Does this break the rotation if you stack it?", with Tier sets, that restriction never existed because there was no way to stack a single tier set bonus.

The design flaw exists regardless of stacking a trait. The fact that you're focusing specifically on the stacking aspect is a red herring. In Legion the Wax and Wane shenanigans were centred around using Lady and the Child, having 4 set T21 and having Wax and Wane unlocked on your weapon. It wasn't just something that was available to everyone, you had to use a specific load out to make it work.

Once someone finds a way to engineer a class to use cheesy rotations it inevitably gains traction and becomes rampant. That's a statement that's been true long before Azerite armour existed and will continue to exist even when Azerite armour retires.

It seems that you simply don't get what i'm trying to highlight with this: having various Azerite traits dilutes the effect of each trait.
It doesn't have anything to do with defensive traits in particular, they're just an example to highlight this issue.
Because it's easier to understand as there are multiple general defensive traits, as opposed to the outer ring effects where class specific mechanics play a role.

It's a really awkward point though that just isn't a big a deal as you're making it out to be, specifically because of the very point you mention - how class specific traits interacts with class mechanics. It doesn't bother me that I don't stack anything more than one Thought Harvester on a Shadow Priest, nor does it bother me that I generally don't stack more than one Arcanic Pulsar for balance druid, specifically due to how they synergise with the class talents, spells and other traits as well.

In order to have any sort of customization, you needed multiple Azerite traits as well, so that's moot.
Being different from the previous is really a low bar in terms of design restrictions.

It's not moot though, Class specific Azerite traits aren't redesigned arbitrarily every season for the sake of uniqueness. Not only that, you aren't forced to give up your previous set of azerite traits that you may or may not have liked simply because "it's a new tier".

[Kralljin]

If you took a look at the itemlevel and rarity of gear, up until this expansion, actually, all gear under a certain itemlevel was blue. For instance, in wotlk, everything <200 was blue, as far as drops went.

The thing is that blue ceases to exist as colouration for anyone that even engages in M+0.

Point is; in every expansion prior to legion, you'd have an insanely low itemlevel weapon (even in legion, you had epic relics vs blue ones in the first tier of content, idr legion itemlevels but blue meant the itemlevel was sub a certain number, could be 840)

Yeah but even in M+0 you already received epic relics, so...?
You also get epic armor just by doing world quests, becaus Emissaries, if it titanforges it also gets epic afaik.

Azerite in S1 is just like azerite in S2-3. Either you raided for a guaranteed drop or you were subject to the mistress of rng.

The huge of flaw of Azerite in Season 1 in regards to raiding is that those Uldir could have shit class specific traits, then you were still fucked.
You could use Archive / Laser Matrix, but a random damage proc and a passive primary stat increase isn't exactly something amazing to play around with.

They might be better than what nonraiders have access to, but still boring.
The fact that you only had access to 1-2 Azerite pieces per slot in total in Uldir, wasn't helpful either.
That wasn't fixed until later on, since BFD, now every boss drops an Azerite piece, so your options expanded.

If one of those Uldir pieces didn't have a good trait, you relied on the M+ Weekly like anyone else.

don't think that danny deplete should even have access to M10/mythic azerite but that's another discussion for another day.

The one thing i'd actually agree on.

[123youshowme]

The thing is that blue ceases to exist as colouration for anyone that even engages in M+0.



Yeah but even in M+0 you already received epic relics, so...?
You also get epic armor just by doing world quests, becaus Emissaries, if it titanforges it also gets epic afaik.



The huge of flaw of Azerite in Season 1 in regards to raiding is that those Uldir could have shit class specific traits, then you were still fucked.
You could use Archive / Laser Matrix, but a random damage proc and a passive primary stat increase isn't exactly something amazing to play around with.

They might be better than what nonraiders have access to, but still boring.
The fact that you only had access to 1-2 Azerite pieces per slot in total in Uldir, wasn't helpful either.
That wasn't fixed until later on, since BFD, now every boss drops an Azerite piece, so your options expanded.

If one of those Uldir pieces didn't have a good trait, you relied on the M+ Weekly like anyone else.



The one thing i'd actually agree on.

M0 had a weekly lockout, breh.
You don't get emissary loot way higher itemlevel than your equipped itemlevel. So you had to essentially be in mostly 340 gear to get anything close to 340 gear to come from the emissary.

And, there's a COLOSSAL amount of people that only do groupfinder queued content. Were you afk for the "why can't i queue for kara" threads in legion?

[Arakakao]

The problem with tier sets is that they take slots that you cannot replace until you get a new tier piece. That means that potential upgrade pieces of gear are ignored in favor of them.

A good way to bring back class sets would be with a new type of gear. Let's call them "blazons". Each blazon corresponds to a named set and has a specific slot where it can be inscribed. When you have 2 blazons of the same set inscribed on your gear, you unlock a set bonus, or even a ring of traits similar to azerite, only instead of being the same ring for each spec is a different ring for each one; when you have 4 blazons of the same set on your gear you unlock the second trait or ring of traits, with the third one unlocked by having 6 blazons.

This system would correct the issue with tier pieces: if you obtain an upgrade you only need to de-inscribe a blazon an inscribe it on the new gear piece.

Also, inscribing all blazons of a set would unlock a collection of cosmetic armor sets; some of them would be generic, but some of them (mainly those coming from raids or PVP) would be class specific.