If BFA had been a N'zoth/South Seas xpac with no faction war...

[allawyn]

The main issue with these faction wars stories is that they're bound to piss off at least half the playerbase. But BfA's Morally Grey™ story is so bad that it has managed to piss off both Hordies and Allies (except the handful of Anduin shills, I guess) - which is quite an achievement in its own right.

Btw, it's amazing to see so many HD cinematics of Sadfang & co., and none for N'Zoth.

Well, if they weren't so keen on making the Horde the villians, it could have been OK.

I mean, they basically followed their usual plot. The evil side make a dramatic strike (kill Varian, Burn Teldrasil) and then the plucky heroes rally and win in the end. Except, of course, they were using a player faction, so they couldn't go as far as total Alliance victory. So they pissed off both sides. The Horde is sick and tired of the villian bat and the Alliance couldn't get their victory over evil.

A truly nuanced and grey faction are could have been interesting. Of course that would have involved an original plot, rather than a retread of Garrosh 2.0.

[Soon-TM]

I still vote Cata...but..sure. To me (and probably others) TBC also gets a pass because..well..I never ever entered Vanilla expecting what I got...or expecting an x-pac and the journey going on. Also my guild went into full swing and invested into raiding...so...they could have thrown anything at this n00b that I am. Also: No judgemental and "everything is shitty" forums

Same here. I immensely enjoyed BC (heck, it's still the best xpac ever imo) but the story was REALLY all over the place. Not to mention that having to kill quite sympathetic folks such as Kael or Vashj really sucked, and with Illidan was even worse... you almost felt sorry for killing the poor dude. As for WoD it was quite similar, perhaps even worse.

But for all of their lore flaws, both xpacs were pretty much self contained, and they didn't have a lot of influence on the main timeline. Even the events of Legion could have been spurred by any other major evil/reckless figure, AU Gul'dan was mostly unnecessary. But the silly elements from Cata, and moreso BfA, will have much more lasting effects.

[Biomega]

The story fustercluck is fairly low on the list of problems BFA has tbh. That's not to say it's irrelevant, of course, but there are many more, far more relevant problems with the expansion.

Just changing the story and leaving the mechanical/design decisions as-is wouldn't be a huge improvement.

[october breeze]

yes, it would have been much better.

But with Metzen gone, someone in the writing team with a sylvanus body pillow and a not much hidden hate on sadfang and alliance promoted.

[allawyn]

The story fustercluck is fairly low on the list of problems BFA has tbh. That's not to say it's irrelevant, of course, but there are many more, far more relevant problems with the expansion.

Just changing the story and leaving the mechanical/design decisions as-is wouldn't be a huge improvement.

For me, it is the other ways around. The story mess caused me to unsubscribe. The story is what keeps my character from being just arbitrary token in a fight game. Team "A" vs. Team "B". "For team A!"

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yes, it would have been much better.

But with Metzen gone, someone in the writing team with a sylvanus body pillow and a not much hidden hate on sadfang and alliance promoted.

Of the people I know what are actual Sylvanas fans (people I play with, people in guilds, people I had interacted for along time in the Story forum before they all left), they all hated what Blizzard did to her.

[october breeze]

For me, it is the other ways around. The story mess caused me to unsubscribe. The story is what keeps my character from being just arbitrary token in a fight game. Team "A" vs. Team "B". "For team A!"

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Of the people I know what are actual Sylvanas fans (people I play with, people in guilds, people I had interacted for along time in the Story forum before they all left), they all hated what Blizzard did to her.

Tell me about.

I takes special talent to piss off anyone: alliance, horde, sylvanas fans, ...

[Nize]

WoD, as an expansion, was worse than BFA, but BFA was far more disappointing when it came to dealing with N'zoth.

The Cenarion Circle and Earthen Ring shaman should have played a bigger role given their history with N'zoth, notably in Cataclysm. We should have seen more Conclave members, as well, due to their High Priest's connection to the dagger. The ending didn't feel big due to only Magni, Wrathion, Ramkahen, and the Pandaren really taking the fight to N'zoth. Legion felt big due to the order halls all taking the fight to Sargeras. It could and should have felt bigger with N'zoth.

[Niwes]

It would have been much better, but I guess someone in the dev team had an ostensible hardon for a MoP 2.0, and hamfisted it into the story no matter how.

yeah, seems like. can not tell how often music, style, game design, and foremost small things, etc. gimme that MoP taste between the lines. its like someone tried to cook the same meal, but had no idea how much salt or pepper he have to use and everything somewhat tastes like the same, but waaay too salty.

how genius this xpac had could be, if they completely scratched AvH, the Sylvanas thing, go first half southseas/pirates and second half nzoth/black empire all the way, and did azerite better from the first place.

[Leodric]

all we needed for this expansion to shine was battle for lordaeron to happen before teldrassil.
Nothing else needed to change.

The faction war is a great opportunity to tell compelling stories, the faction war WASNT the problem. The problem was setting sylvanas up as a villian disguised as a faction war.
We went into it being told its horde vs alliance, but its really alliance vs sylvanas with the horde doing a bunch of warcrimes and a protest march.

We didnt need to kill another warchief, we needed the alliance to be the antagonists for a change. They dont even need to be villianous, in fact they have been more than justified in starting a war, it was logical even for them to retake lordaeron and then gilneas, but instead they do this completely nonsensical lopsided mess.

It would be just as shit as it is now. The Alliance isn't some kind of warmongering group like the Horde is and never will be. It's time for Blizzard to rest the faction war for a while and focus on other stuff. The dream of the Alliance being the bad guys isn't working since the Horde does it constantly already.

[Steelangel]

all we needed for this expansion to shine was battle for lordaeron to happen before teldrassil.
Nothing else needed to change.

The faction war is a great opportunity to tell compelling stories, the faction war WASNT the problem. The problem was setting sylvanas up as a villian disguised as a faction war.
We went into it being told its horde vs alliance, but its really alliance vs sylvanas with the horde doing a bunch of warcrimes and a protest march.

We didnt need to kill another warchief, we needed the alliance to be the antagonists for a change. They dont even need to be villianous, in fact they have been more than justified in starting a war, it was logical even for them to retake lordaeron and then gilneas, but instead they do this completely nonsensical lopsided mess.

I’m pretty sure they did the tree first to ram it down the throats of every Sylvanas fanboy that she is evil and has been since ever. This constant apologia is obnoxious.

[TheFirstOnes]

It's funny, because the Old Gods were the best part of BFA, even if that plot was the most rushed. The Faction War adds nothing to the game. Virtually nothing. It once did, but those days are long gone.

[Zuben]

We would have reason to ally ourselves with naval countries if we were threatened by naval enemies, such as the naga.

[Soon-TM]

The Alliance isn't some kind of warmongering group like the Horde is and never will be.

Maybe you mean Anduin's Alliance, because oddly enough, I remember the Old Alliance being quite a bunch of pricks, even among themselves. As for the New Alliance, must I remind you that the 4th War (the one which started at the battle for the Undercity, according to current canon) was declared by Varian, just because he couldn't get over his personal feelings towards Orcs? And no, Putress' shenanigans had nothing to do with it, as per the same episode of UC.

[Scottyjscizzle]

Would have preferred the opposite, do the faction war story without the other bullshit. Then end it with a lead up to n'zoth/black empire. Would let us do the whole kul tiras/zandalar story, then introduce the big bad for the next expansion. Meanwhile slowly introduce more of the "shadowlands are out of whack" stuff over both expansions to get us introduced it leading up to shadowlands.

[Destinas]

I generally agree, they covered too many topics. In this expansion, there were far too many micro-stories that were often just in their own world, or vaguely connected to other parts of the story. Some topics led more directly into the N'Zoth story, and some led more directly into Shadowlands.

In BfA it covered: the Faction War, Sylvanas' machinations, Xal'atath, Cult of Ragnaros, Lightbound, Zandalari Empire, Saurfang/Zekhan, Vulpera, Sethrak, G'huun, Loa, pirates, Ashvane company, Naga/Nazjatar/Azshara, Tidesages, K'thir, Shek'zara/Mantid, Tol'vir, Drust/Nightmare, Vrykul, Makrura, Gilgoblins, Ankoan, Mogu, the Vale, Uldum, Titans, Azeroth's World-Soul, Magni, Mythrax, Zul, Blood Trolls, Daelin's death/Jaina, Jaina's family, Calia, Stromgarde, Darkshore, Rastakhan's death, Bwonsamdi's machinations, Void Elves, Aqir, Ra-Den, Gallywix, Mechagnomes/Mechagon, Kezan/Crapopolis/Venture Company, Dragonflights (Twilight/Void/Black, other dragons), Wrathion, Azerite, and of course N'Zoth himself. On top of all that, we were introduced to dozens of smaller stories through Island Expeditions - some came into play later (Venture Company, Mantid, Tol'vir, Faceless), while most others did not. Many of these topics combined into one larger narrative about the Black Empire, but many topics were one-off references that didn't appear again when N'Zoth was released, despite their story leading to the entire Black Empire narrative.

However, less isn't always more. Looking at WoD, it had a simplistic story. It covered the clans (Warsong, Bleeding Hollow, Shadowmoon, etc), and the Gorian Empire, which were combined into one larger story about the Iron Horde. It also covered the Legion (which, by extension, covered the Shadow Council and Sargerei). Along the way we learned about the Draenei, Frostwolves, Breakers, Primals, Zangar, Arakkoa, and some smaller races on Draenor. However, people found this set of stories too simple.

Legion is a good example of a good way to tell a lot of smaller stories that all lend itself to a greater story. Through the story, artifacts, and classes, we saw: Demon Hunters/Illidan, the Nightmare/Xavius, various important demons, other worlds (Niskara, Val, Cen'gar, Shadowgore Citadel, Argus, etc), Titan technology, Seekers, Suramar/Nightborne, Court of Farondis, Naga/Azshara, Xal'atath/Black Empire, ancient druids, Highmountain Tauren/Huln Highmountain, Deathwing's past, Drogbar, Alodi, Tomb of Sargeras/Avatar of Sargeras, Aegwynn, Maiev, Black Rook Hold, Vrykul, Titan Watchers, Val'kyr, Kvaldir/Helya/Helheim, Gilneas vs Forsaken, Shadow Council, Lightforged, Krokul, Velen, Vindicaar/Xenedar, Twilight Dragonflight, Magatha/Grimtotem, The Four Horsemen, Bolvar, Argus (Titan), Pillars of Creation, and of course Sargeras himself (on top of plenty of other topics).

That's not even counting the artifacts, order halls, and all the people associated with the order halls/classes that were given varying levels of importance.

The difference between Legion and BfA is direction. Legion's entire story led to the defeat of the Legion. We were getting artifacts and setting up our order halls to fight off the Legion. We were fighting the Nightmare because they had allied with the Legion. We were getting the Pillars of Creation to stop the Legion. We went to Argus to face the Legion. The only detour was Helheim/Helya, but that was partially related to the Pillars of Creation while leveling, and it led to the greater story of the Valarjar (who aided us on the Broken Shore later on...against the Legion).

BfA's story loosely all led to N'Zoth, but there were far too many one-off bad guys, instances, and situations that were mostly distractions. It's not like we saw King Dazar again after the instance (despite the fact that he's undead now). The Drust didn't really lead directly to the Black Empire, despite their connection to the Nightmare. Mechagon's story led entirely to an Allied Race, but didn't have much else to do with the Faction War, Black Empire, or Shadowlands. The Cult of Ragnaros was introduced in the Dark Iron acquisition, but they didn't have anything else to do in the expansion. The Lightbound were shown with Mag'har, with a storyline that had absolutely nothing to do with the rest of BfA (other than simply acquiring Mag'har). The Sethrak were dropped off the face of the earth after Vol'dun - Faithless and Devoted. Bwonsamdi's story was dropped off entirely in favor to tell it in Shadowlands. Azshara is left for a future story. Fungarians were mostly a distraction, since they had nothing else to do with any of the story of BfA. Everything in the Faction War led to Sylvanas' plans, which were all a setup for Shadowlands.

So, it's less about a million storylines existing, and more about a million storylines that didn't connect together at all.

[Dapower]

Bad guys don't achieve much and we always win, wow champions need to be defeated for once... if we had lost to nagas this expac and killed Nzoth in the next, it wouldve been cool.

[bryroo]

If N'Zoth/Azshara has been established as a threat from the beginning it would've made sense to recruit the KT/Zandalari for their naval presence to take the fight to him

It also could've been written that Azerite was the key to defeating the Old Gods forces right away instead of making it the driving motivation for the fourth war

[Josyel]

BfA sucks so much that the endfight against the big bad ass old god that has been hinting since Cataclysm doesnt even get a CG cinematic that we had in a patch earlier.

Azshara, Nazjatar and N'zoth looks like Team Rocket.

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BfA looks like getting maried:

You expect awesome and amazing sex, but instead it was better when you were just datting.

[wargone]

It would have been a lot better. I dont fucking Fanthom how they did not think they could sell an old god Expation. Sure it touches on that subject before, but just flat out Centered on it, would have made more sense. The whole stabbing of azeroth could have lossend the chains, and started the reaction. Instedt of 8.1 Pointless faction race, It could be about Insert random cultiest. OR fuck it, giant pirate island, that could be cool. could be like timeless isles just with pirates as the focus of 8.1... (if we dont want to do just old gods for everything could be the one "other" themed raid)
Keep 8.2 and then 8.3 Could be trying to deal with N'zoth(which i still wish with the shitfest that was 8.ALL of it, which 9.0 would have been raise of the black empire, an whole expation based On the it)

[Accendor]

This expac suffered from being unfocused and trying to do too many things, so imagine it had just been the South Seas/Azshara/N'zoth xpac everyone was expecting. What plot hook would you have used to get us to Kul Tiras and Zandalar? In the current story we go there to recruit them and their navies for the war. So if there were no war, what are some reasons we might go there?

You know, there is nothing wrong with just getting Kul Tiras back into the alliance and the horde looking for new allies. All that can be done without going to war. Forging diplomatic relationshis is a perfectly valid excuse to go to those islands.