Separating Art From Artist: Can it be done? Should it?

[Benggaul]

More and more lately we've had to come to terms with the fact that a lot of people who have created wonderful things are just plain awful. Michael Jackson, Woody Allen, R. Kelly, Bill Cosby, Harvey Weinstein, etc..

Can you still watch and enjoy Ferris Bueller's Day Off or Deadwood when Jeffrey Jones is a convicted pedophile?

Can you still watch the original Mad Max or Lethal Weapon films after Mel Gibson's battery charges and anti-Semitic/misogynist remarks?

Are you still able to watch your old favorite movies or listen to your favorite music when they involve some truly despicable people, or is it forever tainted? Is it okay to still enjoy things from "before" and just eschew everything after you found out?

I've been faced with this dilemma more and more as of late, particularly since a great deal of my favorite films, TV and music come from the 80's and 90's. Some of the awful people mentioned are still getting residuals from their older works and I'd rather not put more money in their hands just because I liked something they were involved in 30 years ago. Is it bad if I don't feel guilty for still liking "Thriller"? "Annie Hall"? "Beetlejuice"?

I'm keeping politics separate from this since it's not criminal to have a different political leaning (although in some cases--phew) so in any responses please try to avoid that as well. I'm curious what you all think.

[mvaliz]

Can you still watch and enjoy Ferris Bueller's Day Off or Deadwood when Jeffrey Jones is a convicted pedophile?

I can't speak for Deadwood as I never saw it, but in FBDO I'd say it kinda adds to that movie! I mean, he is suposed to be a smarmy shitbag of a Principal, after all. The kind that would, most likely, end up as a pedo. :P

EDIT: As far as things go like the Cosby Show? As a fan of Cosby myself, yeah - it effects me, but doesn't change the love I had for the show either. Would it change my view of that show watching it today? of course it would!

But that's the beauty of reality - there's so much NEW to explore out there in TV/Movie land, and our untarnished memories of the first viewings of those things would always remain the same. Yes, even my love of the Cosby Show isn't affected by Cosby's actions - because I didn't know that back then, thus - that experience has remained the same today unless somebody goes back in time and whispers into my ear "he's drugging women!" while I was watching it. Today, him doing that shit acts simply as a footnote to the show history. An interesting "No shit... whoda thunk it!" moment.

[Chinese Bootlickers]

I think Alex Hirsch is a creepy annoying sex pest, doesn't change my opinion of GF being freaking great.

[mvaliz]

Can you still watch the original Mad Max or Lethal Weapon films after Mel Gibson's battery charges and anti-Semitic/misogynist remarks?

My experience is I don't really have any desire to watch those again. But I WILL say it will impact my viewing of LW5 (as in I won't watch it), since apparently Mel Gibson's comming back to play the character. =/

And, again, my stance is that there's always something out there new to enjoy instead! It's like complaining of being able to eat a Banana that's battered and bruised and aweful-looking, to simply putting that Banana down and picking up another banana. It may not be the same banana, but it could be different or worse - and if it is worse, then pick up another banana! :P

EDIT1: While I haven't looked up into it - has Mel Gibson ever apologized for (and continued on a good track record) since all that anti-simetic crap? If he has, time can heal wounds if he's proven himself to be true and not the douchebag he once was. I mean, if we never gave second chances, we would've never had Robert-Downey Junior's Iron Man! ;P

[Benggaul]

But that's the beauty of reality - there's so much NEW to explore out there in TV/Movie land, and our untarnished memories of the first viewings of those things would always remain the same. Yes, even my love of the Cosby Show isn't affected by Cosby's actions - because I didn't know that back then, thus - that experience has remained the same today unless somebody goes back in time and whispers into my ear "he's drugging women!" while I was watching it. Today, him doing that shit acts simply as a footnote to the show history. An interesting "No shit... whoda thunk it!" moment.

Well, part of my point was in asking can you go BACK to those films/shows/music and experience it again without it being ruined? And should you? I remember The Cosby Show being such a big part of my evening's when I was younger and--from the snippets I can remember--it always felt so wholesome while being genuinely funny and entertaining. JUST before the whole Cosby thing broke I was actually looking to purchase the boxed set to watch again since it had been 20+ years since I last saw them. Naturally I didn't go through with it after the news came out, but I still sometimes think I'd love to see them again--and I get hit with that niggling little pang of guilt.

Your not having seen Deadwood actually brings up another point. I loved Deadwood. It was a phenomenal series and I still consider it to be possibly the best that HBO has ever produced. I would LOVE to recommend it to more people, but knowing that that asshole has a semi-regular part in it usually holds me back. I guess the fact that it's a big ensemble cast and he has a smaller part mitigates it somewhat, but is it wrong for me to still say "Oh you HAVE to watch it! It's great!" knowing that he may still profit from it?

I'm not saying this sort of thing keeps me up at night, but I always am conflicted about discussing my favorites from the past decades given how many fucked up people they evidently involved.

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I mean, if we never gave second chances, we would've never had Robert-Downey Junior's Iron Man! ;P

I know RDJ had drug problems, but I'm not really including those types of troubles. Everyone has their issues, really. I'm talking more along the lines of abuses and actions that effect other people to the degree the people I listed did: physical and/or sexual abuse (I would include mental but that's a lot harder to prove, I think).

I don't consider issues like what RDJ went through to be on the same level. He apologized for being a drug addict and worked his way back from that and it's admirable, but could anyone say "Oh, Michael Jackson was inappropriately touching children but he said he's sorry and now he's making good music again so it's all okay"? Doubtful.

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But I WILL say it will impact my viewing of LW5 (as in I won't watch it), since apparently Mel Gibson's comming back to play the character. =/

Me either, honestly. I kind of set up a rule for myself where anything before I KNEW about the problem is "okay", but anything after I will not support in any way. But even then I come to the same crossroads I mention above where I feel conflicted.

[mvaliz]

Me either, honestly. I kind of set up a rule for myself where anything before I KNEW about the problem is "okay", but anything after I will not support in any way. But even then I come to the same crossroads I mention above where I feel conflicted.

Well, if you can't resist the fandom curiosity of being a LW fan - but don't want to give Gibson any mone, there's always the other route!

"Yar har, Fiddle-De-DEE!!!" ;P

Seriously, if it's just money you don't want to give - there's alternative options. ;P

[Benggaul]

Well, if you can't resist the fandom curiosity of being a LW fan - but don't want to give Gibson any mone, there's always the other route!

"Yar har, Fiddle-De-DEE!!!" ;P

Seriously, if it's just money you don't want to give - there's alternative options. ;P

Hush now. I'm aware of that, but, you know, forbidden topic.

Plus, that's also taking money away from the other, "good" people who worked on the projects. I'm sure it works out to literal pennies overall, but still.

[Ashleyxoxo]

Title made me think this was about paintings. I am disappoint.

[melodramocracy]

Yes and yes.

[Kumorii]

To me it's easy since I enjoy the piece of art because of what it is, not because of who the person who made it is.

If it's a good movie, it's a good movie. If it's good music, it's good music, etc etc.

[dope_danny]

Yes. Especially if its something made by more than one person. But still now and again i can enjoy the works of HP Lovecraft without thinking he was some stand up dude i would want to hang out with. Theres always going to be some stuff your own personal boundaries could conflict with but i take each piece of media as it is in a vacuum. I know outrage culture is the language of our time but i always look at it this way: I used to work at a McDonalds in my college days where one of the managers later revealed himself to be a massive racist and nazi skin head, the real deal not 'people on the internet i disagree with' modern usage. Now and again he came to cook the burgers. Maybe a middle eastern family came in, bought his cooking and ate it and enjoyed it never knowing the horrible shit he was probably thinking. I'm sure if they knew they would feel bad retroactively but you really have no idea how much of the average stuff you partake in every single day has in some way put money in the pocket of a monster. Shit look at Hollywood in general right? everyone has limits but you can't police everything and a lot of the bad stuff you never find out till long after the fact so sometimes you can ignore it but thats up to you.

[Rennadrel]

I tend to not care about sociopolitical noise. People make mistakes and do stupid things in life, we all have and we all will.

[PC2]

It can be really hard to seperate annoying actors from the art piece but technically the objective way to judge something is by considering it on its own merit, independantly of the subjects involved in making it. Or in the case of a rating system you would need to rate the movie based on how good it is compared to other movies in the same category.

You mentioned Mel Gibson so as an example somebody who was raised in isolation and has never heard anything about him should be able to judge his movies more objectively. An argument like "Mad Max is a third-rate movie because Mel Gibson is bad off air" seems similar to the guilt-by-association fallacy.

[Benggaul]

Title made me think this was about paintings. I am disappoint.

No reason not to include it. I know next to nothing about paintings apart from "I like the way this one looks", so I can not speak towards their creators. Feel free to fill in those gaps here yourself.

[Sunseeker]

First off, I'm not one of those sorts of folks who thinks a person is great because their product is great. I'm not saying I think they're terrible, I just don't really associate say, my love of Michael Jackson's music with Michael Jackson himself. Hell I can't even name the members of my favorite band Judas Priest.

I think the initial problem is associating a product with a person.

But yes I think there is a point and there are certain actions which would make a persons product tainted beyond being able to be enjoyed independently of them. I think that bar is probably more personal than factual. One lady in my office won't watch any movie with an actor (or actress) who has cheated on their SO. I think that's a fairly low bar, but it's probably more for personal reasons she does this than anything else.

I can't stand Kid Rock (as I think he's an obnoxious self-absorbed dickhead) and refuse to listen to his music, but I was introduced to Kid Rock seeing him interviewed before I heard his music. He's got some good songs when he's not singing about himself, and in all of those songs he sounds like the most arrogant twatwaffle on the planet.

So ya know, I think it depends on which way you come at it, and how much you associate product and producer to begin with.

[Benggaul]

I tend to not care about sociopolitical noise. People make mistakes and do stupid things in life, we all have and we all will.

I'm not talking about people such as Robert Downey Jr who had a drug problem and then overcame it. I'm talking about much more heinous things such as pedophilia and/or battery. These aren't simple "stupid mistakes" and aren't/shouldn't be forgotten.

[Queen of Hamsters]

Both of those are subjective.

I can and do separate the 2, especially since say, Kevin Spacey was never alone in making movies/shows great. There was a team, and punishing the team because of 1 asshole? No. Although, House of Cards died with his career, and that was a damned shame. I would've gladly accepted him returning to end the show, but no... he got punished, and so did everyone else.

And I am sure there are tons of undisclosed shitbags still working in media. I don't have time nor energy to be outraged to such an extent.

[PC2]

I'm not talking about people such as Robert Downey Jr who had a drug problem and then overcame it. I'm talking about much more heinous things such as pedophilia and/or battery. These aren't simple "stupid mistakes" and aren't/shouldn't be forgotten.

That has no relation to the merit of the performance though. For example you could've watched The Bill Cosby show and thought that Bill Cosby is good at delivering lines and making you laugh and you can't change that just because it turned out he was a monster. You can say you're too disgusted to watch the show again in 2020 or you can become a better movie critic, but how good the show really is can't change after it's released.

[Elegiac]

Death of the author, baby. Once it's in the public sphere it no longer belongs to you.

[EnclosedOne]

i actually have this issue recently with a musical artist that has an amazing voice, one of the best I've ever heard, but he is now sentenced to prison for being part of a dance club where underage women were taken and drugged/prostituted, also part of a chat room where they shared pictures/videos of women being raped and/or molested in some way, he was also found guilty of being part of at least two times where he drugged/raped a women he was supposed to be on dates with.

I have decided that I can and will listen to music i have from him from before I found out all those horrible things because i refuse to allow certain songs to be tainted by what he did because they're some of my favorite songs. IF he was ever able to make music again, hell no, I wouldn't listen to any of it which is a real damn shame because his voice is amazing. It angers me that he ruined his incredible gift by being such a sleaze