The Brexit aftermath thread

[Elegiac]

There wasn't really any decision to make there to be fair.

Trumps nonsense demands painted the UK into a corner, by standing up to Agent Orange we will probably incur his ire, maybe even his wrath, however if we had complied it would have sent a catastrophic message to the rest of the world that the UK is now Trumps bitch and we will do whatever ridiculous/stupid thing he demands of us (not a great look just as you leave the EU and the world is actively looking to make you it's bitch lol).

The funny thing is, the USA doesn't even have an alternative to Huawei to offer lol, so Trumps master plan to bully us into buying American could never have worked in the first place xD

I’m sorry that the US tried to stop you from infecting your entire telecoms network with Chinese spyware? Lol.

Of all the things to bitch about you picked the least insane thing Trump has done.

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We both will, give it 15-20 years and the UK will be back in the EU, and with a much stronger appreciation for it. Yes the next decade or two will be rough but in the long run the EU will be stronger due to the greater solidarity and the USA's relationship with the UK (and thus influence over the EU) will be weaker.

Bold assumption that there will be a UK that far down the line.

I’ve no doubt England will be the last of the former British countries to rejoin the EU.

[caervek]

I’m sorry that the US tried to stop you from infecting your entire telecoms network with Chinese spyware? Lol.

Of all the things to bitch about you picked the least insane thing Trump has done.

Don't believe everything you hear.

The reason nobody with a brain buys into that spyware scaremongering is because Huawei already play a big part in the EXISTING system, just like they do in most first world countries. Allowing them to supply hardware for the 5G network is of zero threat because firstly it would be found prior to installation and secondly it's only the public system, any government/military/etc stuff going through the public system is always encrypted anyway.

Don't be fooled there are no real security concerns with Huawei supplying more hardware to us, this was simply a case of Trump getting mad that China get to sell something to an ally (even though the USA don't even make it and the options were pretty much China or Sweden) and throwing his rattle out of the pram, then people scrambling to cover for his idiocy with the nonsense security claims.

[Elegiac]

Don't believe everything you hear.

The reason nobody with a brain buys into that spyware scaremongering is because Huawei already play a big part in the EXISTING system, just like they do in most first world countries. Allowing them to supply hardware for the 5G network is of zero threat because firstly it would be found prior to installation and secondly it's only the public system, any government/military/etc stuff going through the public system is always encrypted anyway.

Don't be fooled there are no real security concerns with Huawei supplying more hardware to us, this was simply a case of Trump getting mad that China get to sell something to an ally (even though the USA don't even make it and the options were pretty much China or Sweden) and throwing his rattle out of the pram, then people scrambling to cover for his idiocy with the nonsense security claims.

Cool, I'll choose to not believe what I'm hearing from you since concerns about Huawei have been extant on both sides of the political spectrum long before Trump ever took office.

[Skroe]

There wasn't really any decision to make there to be fair.

Trumps nonsense demands painted the UK into a corner, by standing up to Agent Orange we will probably incur his ire, maybe even his wrath, however if we had complied it would have sent a catastrophic message to the rest of the world that the UK is now Trumps bitch and we will do whatever ridiculous/stupid thing he demands of us (not a great look just as you leave the EU and the world is actively looking to make you it's bitch lol).

The funny thing is, the USA doesn't even have an alternative to Huawei to offer lol, so Trumps master plan to bully us into buying American could never have worked in the first place xD

There was.

First of all, it isn't "Trump's Nonsense Demand". It's the US Intelligence Community's recommendation.

Second of all, as far as statements about independence goes, this is a self defeating one, because it just showed the world that the UK is now behold to China because it is addicted to easy Chinese money and dare not tell its China paymaster "no". Not on nuclear plants. Not on 5G. Not on anything.

Thirdly, the US does have alternatives, just somewhat more expensive.

Fourthly, the best alternative at the moment is "Nothing", because 5G technology is incredibly immature. 5G... real 5G.... as it stands, is range limited and easily blocked by walls. Its best near term usage will be in places like parks and stadiums. But streets and inside buildings and homes will require putting antennas on every floor, around every corner, and in every room.

You want something from Huawei, a front for Chinese intelligence, to have that level of infrastructure penetration? Are you people insane.

The rational choice was "nothing". First because there is no urgency in implementing 5G, and second because Huawei is trojan horsing the hell out of it. But hey, it's the UK Government. They don't do rational choices anymore. Haven't in 15 years.

There is no special relationship. It was something, but it died in the 2000s when the UK cut its influence to the bone. Now it's a cry for relevancy to a power that scarcely pays attention to it anymore.

[Elegiac]

There was.

First of all, it isn't "Trump's Nonsense Demand". It's the US Intelligence Community's recommendation.

Second of all, as far as statements about independence goes, this is a self defeating one, because it just showed the world that the UK is now behold to China because it is addicted to easy Chinese money and dare not tell its China paymaster "no". Not on nuclear plants. Not on 5G. Not on anything.

Thirdly, the US does have alternatives, just somewhat more expensive.

Fourthly, the best alternative at the moment is "Nothing", because 5G technology is incredibly immature. 5G... real 5G.... as it stands, is range limited and easily blocked by walls. Its best near term usage will be in places like parks and stadiums. But streets and inside buildings and homes will require putting antennas on every floor, around every corner, and in every room.

You want something from Huawei, a front for Chinese intelligence, to have that level of infrastructure penetration? Are you people insane.

The rational choice was "nothing". First because there is no urgency in implementing 5G, and second because Huawei is trojan horsing the hell out of it. But hey, it's the UK Government. They don't do rational choices anymore. Haven't in 15 years.

There is no special relationship. It was something, but it died in the 2000s when the UK cut its influence to the bone. Now it's a cry for relevancy to a power that scarcely pays attention to it anymore.

You'd think "products made by appendages of the CCP tend to be absolutely loaded with spyware" would be a politically uncontroversial position, but here we are.

Like the US government was putting backdoors into the software that the Soviets were pirating to exploit later down the line, something which is a recorded historical fact, but somehow China doing the same thing is a myth from Fantasy Island.

[Kallisto]

You'd think "products made by appendages of the CCP tend to be absolutely loaded with spyware" would be a politically uncontroversial position, but here we are.

Like the US government was putting backdoors into the software that the Soviets were pirating to exploit later down the line, something which is a recorded historical fact, but somehow China doing the same thing is a myth from Fantasy Island.

Even the chief of MI6 last year was telling the Tories not to put in Huawei. Anyone thinking this is some kind of Trump demand is likely someone who thinks "West did one bad thing meaning they are equal to china doing lots of bad things." or denial of the situation.

Trump not wanting Britain to be in bed with Huawei is basically "Stopped watch is right twice a day." situation.

[gtempest]

I personally believe all the posturing Boris is doing at the moment is to set up for the inevitable ground he will have to give.
He has managed to sell his deal to his powerbase and the former red belt as being better than Mays even though overall its patently worse.
Boris is setting up a narrative where he can again convince those same people he did a great deal, and in all honesty aslong as frontline NHS service is preserved he can probably get away with just about anything and claim he saved the NHS after everyone said it would be on the block.
The people largely would be shielded from bad press if he leveraged the services industry to launder even more Russian money, if new immigration system is essentially just a money for visas scheme for certain Asian countries, he could even leverage fishing vs EU and agriculture vs US and claim a win. Gibraltor is a tough one but I think if he paints it in the right light, ie Those lazy expats who made their bed and now need to lay in it or they arent real brits anyway, something similar and the northern english would back it anyway.
The opposition here is in chaos, the media is owned by Boris' overlords and as so succinctly expressed the masses here are more concerned with reality television and the premier league to worry much about the political landscape.

[Elegiac]

Even the chief of MI6 last year was telling the Tories not to put in Huawei. Anyone thinking this is some kind of Trump demand is likely someone who thinks "West did one bad thing meaning they are equal to china doing lots of bad things." or denial of the situation.

Trump not wanting Britain to be in bed with Huawei is basically "Stopped watch is right twice a day." situation.

It's insane, especially because it's probably one of the least ideologically relevant arguments.

It's literally just a question of whether or not it's good practice to source your telecoms equipment from a known surveillance state.

[zealo]

Going with Huawei for infrastructure projects such as 5G is nothing but shortsighted penny pinching, when there are European telecom companies such as Nokia and Ericsson for it.

There's absolutely a choice here, just one the UK isn't interested in.

[Skroe]

You'd think "products made by appendages of the CCP tend to be absolutely loaded with spyware" would be a politically uncontroversial position, but here we are.

Like the US government was putting backdoors into the software that the Soviets were pirating to exploit later down the line, something which is a recorded historical fact, but somehow China doing the same thing is a myth from Fantasy Island.

Yup. It's completely insane. The US has in the past intercepted shipments of technology goods, had our intelligence agencies put intelligence gathering devices in them, then sent them on their way. There has been no known incidents of a US company giving the US government an explicit back door, but that's not for lack of trying. The US is so concerend about Huawei doing this because it's something the US government has tried to do for years... difference being US companies could say no to Uncle Sam, but Chinese companies CANNOT say no to Uncle Jinping.

We are concerned because they are doing exactly the kind of obvious "it makes sense to do" thing that we'd do if our positions were reversed. If we were in the position to supply exclusive technology to an ally of China, you'd damn well bet we'd want to load it up with stuff.

Crazy.


The British hide behind words. Truth is: they are desperate for growth and don't know how to achieve it.

https://www.economicshelp.org/wp-con...-quarterly.png

Their economic trajectory is unsustainable for a country that has seen flat tax receipts for years. If not for austerity, the UK would be deep in the red. But austerity devastated communities and many functions of government, such as policing, the military, foreign service and scientific investment.

There has been talk about post-growth economics for 20 years. The US, luckily, has been able to avoid this by engaging in repeated rounds of stimulus, tax cuts and quantitative easing since 2007, that's yielded over a decade of solid, seemingly sustainable, if not remarkable economic grwoth. Growing from, on average, 2%-3% isn't like the pre-2007 3%-4% growth numbers, but it (along with increase borrowing) has put us in a far better position than the UK, which cannot afford to do this.

So what does the UK do? It needs to (A) grow it's economy or (B) cycle down it's government expenditures for a near-zero growth new normal. (B) would see Johnson's government fall, and besides, austerity was already a disaster, so a second helping wouldn't work. That leaves (A), by any means at any costs.

That's what their words dress up. Short term thinking. Keep a failing car running as long as they can. They're going to mortgage their future just so they don't have to make hard choices now. And they're going to do it to anyone. China first now. But I also expect them to go waffly on Russian sanctions soon. Why? Because the City of London is the bridge by where Russian oligarchs inject their stolen wealth into the Western financial system. The US closed that avenue off to them in New York years ago. The UK closed it a bit, but less so. Expect them to blow it wide open, because they'll need every bit of investment they can get.

Put aside the rhetoric, I think that's the end-point for Brexit as a whole: a national project by short term Tory looters to turn the UK into basically the North Atlantic Cayman Islands. A place where Russians and Chinese and Arabs and Americans and Europeans can dump and move their dirty money. This little island would take a cut, no questions asked, and could continue living their best life, damn the larger consequences of being that.

And if it all goes to shit they can always move to Europe or the United States. But most British citizens can't.

[Huehuecoyotl]

If not for austerity, the UK would be deep in the red.

Just about every economist in the world disagrees with you there sport. The economy was just about starting to trend upwards from the devastation caused to the world by your countries inability (unwillingness?) to keep a grip on your financial sector. Then the Tories got in, started their austerity drive and spent the next decade saying they just needed another 5 years to sort out the deficit.

Austerity added a trillion pounds to our debt. It wasn't needed, it was in fact economically counter-productive and it was driven purely from an ideological frame of mind.

But sure, you carry on coming to this thread telling us how terrible our government is while the rest of the civilised world pisses themselves laughing at what's going on in your country. At least we know that if we pull something laughing so much we won't bankrupt ourselves getting a doctor to sort it out.

[Slant]

WARNING: THIS POST IS A JOKE!


Oh dear, you really don't understand how it works do you.

The EU is so big and powerful it can effectively dictate to and affect power over the USA when it comes to trade/regulations/etc. The UK has a special relationship with the USA. That means the UK can effectively dictate to and affect power over the EU.

THAT'S HOW TRIANGLES WORK!

I think you're too good at this. Are you sure you're not a closet Brexiteer?

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No, I was agreeing with Slant.

I figured the post was stupid enough for it's satirical nature to be obvious, forgot to take into account how low the standards of posting are around here ^^

The problem is that the exact thing you're saying is said seriously by Brexiteers. The only difference is that we know your posting history and now you made a nice disclaimer at the top, too.

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I’m sorry that the US tried to stop you from infecting your entire telecoms network with Chinese spyware? Lol.

During pretty much the same debate in German Parliament, the Government made a good point... banning Huwaei from building a 5G network is kind of pointless when they have chips in virtually any hardware other network giants would use to build up such a network. So you banned them from outright doing the buildup, but they still have the opportunity to insert malicious code via their chips.

What I'm saying is... either you let them do it openly and keep tabs on whatever it is they're doing, make them dependent financially on making the project viable so you can leverage them into being honest, or you ban every single network provider that includes even just one chip from China. Anything else is just lip service.

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Just about every economist in the world disagrees with you there sport. The economy was just about starting to trend upwards from the devastation caused to the world by your countries inability (unwillingness?) to keep a grip on your financial sector. Then the Tories got in, started their austerity drive and spent the next decade saying they just needed another 5 years to sort out the deficit.

Austerity added a trillion pounds to our debt. It wasn't needed, it was in fact economically counter-productive and it was driven purely from an ideological frame of mind.

But sure, you carry on coming to this thread telling us how terrible our government is while the rest of the civilised world pisses themselves laughing at what's going on in your country. At least we know that if we pull something laughing so much we won't bankrupt ourselves getting a doctor to sort it out.

If austerity added to your debt, it wasn't austerity.

[ranzino]

Tusk: There would be 'empathy' towards Scotland joining EU

nice to be optimistic, but nothing happens until Scotland is independent and asks for re-entry.

[Acidbaron]

Tusk: There would be 'empathy' towards Scotland joining EU

nice to be optimistic, but nothing happens until Scotland is independent and asks for re-entry.

I find that an unnecessary comment made by Tusk that serves absolutely nothing, Scotland already knew they were welcome and Tusk already knew that the EU has no say or influence in this matter and even if they did it would never happen because the EU does not as a whole support parts of an union or regions from a nation to obtain full independence.

Wrote that before reading the actual interview it is far more moderate of a comment, but BBC asked it. So i will go with a dumb question from the BBC from my perspective, perhaps in the UK where media generally has an anti-EU attitude this question makes more sense.

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Which I hope comes fast.

Would say at least a decade if you are optimistic and are allowed to vote for it, assuming the government after Bojo's will even allow that vote to happen in the first place.

[caervek]

Cool, I'll choose to not believe what I'm hearing from you

Well that's your choice, but dismissing facts simply because you dislike whoever brought them to your attention is pretty closed minded >.>

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There was.

There really wasn't. The government cannot put the upgrade of the mobile network on hold just because Trump is throwing a tantrum, especially when keeping it on track was one of their big election pledges.

First of all, it isn't "Trump's Nonsense Demand". It's the US Intelligence Community's recommendation.

Well it was a demand, it was made by Trump, and it was based on nonsense, that's pretty explanatory. Yes I'm aware that various members of the US Intelligence Community are backing Trump in order to court favour or help their careers or whatever, but that doesn't stop it being nonsense it just makes them look silly.

as far as statements about independence goes, this is a self defeating one, because it just showed the world that the UK is now behold to China

Wrong, by standing up to Trump it shows the UK won't be bullied and will stand up for it's own interests, even if it may well pay the price for doing so. A good message to send after shooting ourselves in the foot with Brexit and basically inviting the world to bully us.

Thirdly, the US does have alternatives, just somewhat more expensive.

Nope, the options were basically China or Sweden. Trump did suggest the US and UK should team up to develop an alternative but that's impossible in the timescale required.

Fourthly, the best alternative at the moment is "Nothing"

Not a valid option, at least not unless the 2025 target is being abandoned and as mentioned it was a major election pledge.

You want something from Huawei, a front for Chinese intelligence, to have that level of infrastructure penetration? Are you people insane.

As mentioned previously, it's only going to be used in the public network (where all government/military communication and most private communication using it is encrypted) and the security scaremongering falls flat on it's face due to the fact that Hauwei already play a big part in the existing network just like they do in most first world countries.

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If austerity added to your debt, it wasn't austerity.

It didn't, but a lot of people in this country don't understand why the debt keeps going up even though austerity is reducing the budget deficit. Sadly it's not even something you can explain to the average person either as usually when they find out the deficit run up by the Blair/Brown government is still adding billions to the debt a decade after it left office then they have comprehension issues and get mad (assuming you must be a Tory and making excuses) because Facebook says it's all the governments fault.

[thorplance]

well that's your choice, but dismissing facts simply because you dislike whoever brought them to your attention is pretty closed minded

You know NOTHING about the issue, stop doubling-down on stupid you retarded little tory. How many times?

[caervek]

You know NOTHING about the issue, stop doubling-down on stupid you retarded little tory. How many times?

1. Just because you don't understand it doesn't make those who do wrong.
2. I'm not a Tory, I have mentioned this to you.
3. I don't particularly like the Tories to be honest.
4. Acknowledging the facts even when they are favourable to the Tories doesn't make me one.

[Elegiac]

I was in London on Friday evening enjoying my last moments as a citizen of the EU with like-minded folk. Strangely (as I'm quite sweary), I refrained from yelling obscenities at the opposing tribe, not that that stopped them yelling them at me. The sentiment among my crowd was that of resignation, which is sad, given the lengths the opposition went to cheat.

All I can say is this: although I am no longer a citizen of the EU, I will try to behave as one and not as a McDonalds-eating, bible-bashing, climate change-denying member of a soon-to-be 51st state.

I'm only sad I came to this conclusion late. I should have been actively campaigning to Remain in 2016 instead of inadequately critiquing the faults of EU institutions from the sidelines. The benefits of hindsight.

Peace & respect to those on the continent who have had to tolerate this shitfest.

I look forward to sniping (verbally & maybe literally) at those who, like David Davis, think "we will all be winners". I can assure you, I will, on every level and at every opportunity, make life as difficult as possible for you. There will be no “healing”. There will be no “reconciliation”. Go fuck yourselves.

Lol maybe we should do a population exchange where the Leavers get deported to America (i.e. the South) while the residents of the blue states head over to the UK to rejoin Europe.

[eschatological]

Lol maybe we should do a population exchange where the Leavers get deported to America (i.e. the South) while the residents of the blue states head over to the UK to rejoin Europe.

TBH, I was thinking of moving to Europe if Trump wins re-election, and England was my first plan. Now I'm gonna have to brush up on my Spanish or something, and go live on some Spanish beach.

[Zaydin]

Tusk: There would be 'empathy' towards Scotland joining EU

nice to be optimistic, but nothing happens until Scotland is independent and asks for re-entry.

It'll be some well-deserved karma for the xenophobic rubes in England and Wales that forced Brexit on the whole of the UK lead to the dissolution of the UK with Northern Ireland rejoining Ireland and Scotland breaking away, rejoining the EU and taking the North Sea oil platforms with it while pointing their fingers at the Tories on their way out the door.

From an outsiders perspective, it feels like a lot of it was driven by old white people born during or after WW2 and growing up watching the British Empire disintegrate after the war because the territories the British had been oppressing for centuries got tired of upper-class twits in London ordering them around and gained independence and the Brexiteers wanted to reestablish some semblance of what they were told was the 'glory days' of British power. Unfortunately, no one bothered explaining them that that power is impossible to get back.

Especially since the UK has been hiding behind the US militarily for over 70 years now.