Iowa Caucus 2020 - MegaThread

[Mihalik]

Again, the short circuiting on display when confronted by someone who is progressive and yet not a Bernie supporter is mildly amusing.

Y'all have been so eager to claim that Bernie isn't a Democrat, why are you getting mad when someone agrees with you?

Oh, I know why. It's because saying as such might damage his chances and truth comes secondary to victory in Bernie land. See, I can blatantly make shit up too.

Huh? What? I don't even understand what you are trying to say there.

And by the way...with the risk off coming engaging in a no true scottsman fallacy, I'm not exactly sure what about you is progressive right now. Because your priorities seem to be Party Machine>Everything, right now. I'm not convinced you have any principles at this junction beyond party loyalty. Even Skroe has certain identifiable and characteristic principles that go beyond "Defeat Trump" and "Party Loyalty" and I'm not even sure he is a democrat.

[Elegiac]

Huh? What? I don't even understand what you are trying to say there.

And by the way...with the risk off coming engaging in a no true scottsman fallacy, I'm not exactly sure what about you is progressive right now. Because your priorities seem to be Party Machine>Everything, right now. I'm not convinced you have any principles at this junction beyond party loyalty. Even Skroe has certain identifiable and characteristic principles that go beyond "Defeat Trump" and "Party Loyalty" and I'm not even sure he is a democrat.

I'm not gonna have my left wing credentials questioned by a bunch of xenoi whose closest encounter with an actual left wing political movement was watching the Rebel Alliance on Star Wars, quite frankly.

And yes, an expatriate to America is a brainwashed Democratic Party apparatchik. Yep. I was grown in a test tube for the explicit purpose of becoming a naturalised American citizen that helps buttress the DNC's evil partisan status quo.

Y'all are delusional, sometimes.

[Telogrus]

Where the heck is the other 38%

[Elegiac]

The asshole part of me is curious what it would look like if Bernie dropped out due to health reasons and the Bros have to suck it up and vote for Warren as the progressive candidate.

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Where the heck is the other 38%

In. The urban. Districts.

You know, those places with high population density and therefore take more time to count and verify?

Have y'all never watched an election night before?

Who is John Galt?

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I'm also curious why being mean to Bernie supporters runs the risk of them voting Trump, but Bernie supporters being mean to...well, everyone...is just "weeding out the real progressives" and could have no possible negative consequences.

I mean, y'all have managed to turn at least one Klobuchar delegate off Bernie due to your "passion" in the Iowa caucus. Remind me how Bernie is supposed to win if delegates for candidates that drop out switch to candidates that aren't Bernie?

[Mihalik]

Nice strawman.

I'm saying party membership has its responsibilities and it's nonsensical how quite a few people think they should be waived for a particular candidate they deem to be in the moral right.

But yes please do go on about how all those nasty liberal democracies with closed primaries are the incarnation of authoritarianism.

And I am saying that there's a whole lot of people who couldn't give less of a flying fuck about the party, and the fact that Sanders is running on a democratic ballot is simply the most practical and convenient way for achieving a certain objective.

The Democratic Party is not entitled to the votes of Bernie supporters. It technically could shut Bernie out of the ticket, but then it would have to deal with the consequences. As in ...with losing those votes.

So it is a marriage of convenience between Sanders and the Democratic party, but that technicality is irrelevant to the voters who are supporting the Democratic party because the policies Sanders and his surrogates bring to the party, but if they are being duped and cheated and insulted in this marriage of convenience they might just feel like withholding their votes from the party.

I...Do...Not...Give...A...Fuck...About...The...Party, and I am a registered democrat who was voted in every election since the 2006 (corrected the date, I turned 18, late December 2004, so I missed the Presidentials) midterms (since I turned 18). I voted democrat because my interests typically align with the interests of the Democratic Party. I very rarely felt represented by the party tho, and typically I would be very promptly disappointed by the people I voted for, but that is nor here or there. The point I am making is that I (and millions upon millions of others) don't give a fuck about the party and I don't blame people for not voting or sometimes voting the other way when they not feeling represented.

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I'm not gonna have my left wing credentials questioned by a bunch of xenoi whose closest encounter with an actual left wing political movement was watching the Rebel Alliance on Star Wars, quite frankly.

And yes, an expatriate to America is a brainwashed Democratic Party apparatchik. Yep. I was grown in a test tube for the explicit purpose of becoming a naturalised American citizen that helps buttress the DNC's evil partisan status quo.

Y'all are delusional, sometimes.

Are you reading what you just wrote? What the shit?

[mvaliz]

Huh? What? I don't even understand what you are trying to say there.

And by the way...with the risk off coming engaging in a no true scottsman fallacy, I'm not exactly sure what about you is progressive right now. Because your priorities seem to be Party Machine>Everything, right now. I'm not convinced you have any principles at this junction beyond party loyalty. Even Skroe has certain identifiable and characteristic principles that go beyond "Defeat Trump" and "Party Loyalty" and I'm not even sure he is a democrat.

@Skroe's always been a die-hard Republican to a fault (like Regan-Bush Admin Republican, not Dump Supporter Tratorpublican, which honestly isn't that far off IMO - but apparently it is just enough for him) and he has never pretended to be otherwise, he has openly admitted he's only voting Dem because of Dumbass Dump with full intentions to go back to his Rhetoric once things get rebalanced. This is nothing he's hid, he's openly said this and will most likely even nod in agreement with my post (up to this point, at least).

However, when some people claim "Bernie isn't even a Democrat!" as if to suggest he's not on their side, it makes my blood boil because these same people LOVE to colab together with Skroe - who also openly admits he's not a Democrat but works with forum Dems here, and fully intends to go back to being a Tratorpublican when balance is "restored". It's like the pot calling the kettle black! >_< I mean, that's half the reason Skroe and I have backed eachother up on quite a few posts together... you know, that whole "one America, no team" mentality??? o_O

[Edge-]

However, when some people claim "Bernie isn't even a Democrat!" as if to suggest he's not on their side, it makes my blood boil because these same people LOVE to colab together with Skroe - who openly admits he's not a Democrat and fully intends to go back to being a Tratorpublican when balance is "restored". It's like the pot calling the kettle black! >_<

...Skroe isn't running for office, dude. That's a completely insane comparison.

Don't worry though, once we get a sane president back in office this forum will go back to arguing to high hell with him. We already got a taste of that in the Iran thread as folks had seemingly forgotten that yes, despite being on the "same side" on Trump, Never-Trump Republicans are still very much Republicans and still very much ideologically opposed to Democratic policies. That isn't Skroe specific, that's a harsh wake up call for a lot of Democrats who have likely gotten pretty used to being on the same side as the likes of Bill Kristol or Rick Wilson.

[Elegiac]

And I am saying that there's a whole lot of people who couldn't give less of a flying fuck about the party, and the fact that Sanders is running on a democratic ballot is simply the most practical and convenient way for achieving a certain objective.

-snip-

Political compromise for me, but not for thee.

I didn't claim the DNC was entitled to Bernie's voters, anywhere. I said the DNC is entitled to run a closed primary process and that doing such is not democracy's swan song and that it's stupid for Bernie's supporters to get in a huff because they have to play by someone else's rules when they themselves chose to make a shibboleth of being distant from the rulemaking process.

As far as I'm concerned if they deem the GOP an acceptable alternative to the Democrats because the DNC is a clique, they aren't left wing. They're selfish people trying to extract value from the state and would be entirely willing to throw other demographics under the bus to get their way.

Fortunately, not even half of Bernie's supporters qualify for this particular brand of cancerous behavior. But there are enough Bros to be worrying about and it's troubling that rather than try to wrestle with that, the Sanders camp chooses to ignore it, excuse it, or gaslight others about when it happens.

Question: if Bernie isn't even capable of building a good working relationship with the DNC how in the fuck is he going to do it with anyone else in government as President.

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Are you reading what you just wrote? What the shit?

Yep, and I'm hoping you now get why it's beyond insane to speculate that I'm a closet Trump supporter or a DNC shill.

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@Skroe's always been a die-hard Republican to a fault (like Regan-Bush Admin Republican, not Dump Supporter Tratorpublican, which honestly isn't that far off IMO - but apparently it is just enough for him) and he has never pretended to be otherwise, he has openly admitted he's only voting Dem because of Dumbass Dump with full intentions to go back to his Rhetoric once things get rebalanced. This is nothing he's hid, he's openly said this and will most likely even nod in agreement with my post (up to this point, at least).

However, when some people claim "Bernie isn't even a Democrat!" as if to suggest he's not on their side, it makes my blood boil because these same people LOVE to colab together with Skroe - who openly admits he's not a Democrat and fully intends to go back to being a Tratorpublican when balance is "restored". It's like the pot calling the kettle black! >_< I mean, that's half the reason Skroe and I have backed eachother up on quite a few posts together... you know, that whole "one America, no team" mentality??? o_O

Why do y'all want a single party state.

[Drutt]

"We survived Trump", huh? You know where else I've heard that?

"We survived Reagan".

The refrain of white liberals who don't seem to get that hundreds of thousands of LGBT people and people of color did not survive Reagan. But I'm glad to see throwing minority demographics under the bus is still a priority of many in the Sanders camp.

And yet the country is still here, isn't it? No one said his policies wouldn't hurt people, but that wasn't the point being refuted in the first place.

Framing issues into sensationalised end-of-days rhetoric isn't helpful; quite the opposite, in fact. Putting words into people's mouths and creating straw men isn't helpful either.

And what the fuck does "the Sanders camp" have to do with anything I said? It's incredibly sad that some people are so desperate to push an agenda.

[Fugus]

The asshole part of me is curious what it would look like if Bernie dropped out due to health reasons and the Bros have to suck it up and vote for Warren as the progressive candidate.

Dude, that's the only part of you we have seen today.

If Bernie dropped out I would vote Warren just fine, she is already my number 2 pick. Sanders would be the better option IMO, but I wouldn't lose any sleep with Warren instead.

I have already stated multiple times that I think one of them needs to back out and endorse the other, which one really didn't matter to me but one of them needs to because of the overlap in their stuff which has them poaching each others votes hardcore.

[Elegiac]

And yet the country is still here, isn't it?

Yes. And as I've said, that sort of "silver lining" is the refrain of people who had the means to insulate themselves.

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Dude, that's the only part of you we have seen today.

If Bernie dropped out I would vote Warren just fine, she is already my number 2 pick. Sanders would be the better option IMO, but I wouldn't lose any sleep with Warren instead.

Sure you wouldn't just stay home like you did in 2016? I thought the official line from Sanders' supporters was that Warren was a secret republican snake.

[Deus Mortis]

All this fighting and threats of not voting if the candidate that you want does not make it has me concerned. Everyone needs to remember that there is long term impacts if Donald Trump gets another 4 years, and the key one is Ruth Bader Ginsburg's deteriorating health. Some of you need to look towards the long term because if Donald Trump wins another 4 years and she dies during that time which I have a bad feeling is likely then a lot of your wants are going to be crushed for far longer than a 2nd term of Trump. The supreme court is a big reason why a lot of people who dislike Trump ended up getting behind him because they understood how damn important it is in controlling the supreme court to get some of your big goals accomplished.

[Elegiac]

All this fighting and threats of not voting if the candidate that you want does not make it has me concerned. Everyone needs to remember that there is long term impacts if Donald Trump gets another 4 years, and the key one is Ruth Bader Ginsburg's deteriorating health. Some of you need to look towards the long term because if Donald Trump wins another 4 years and she dies during that time which I have a bad feeling is likely then a lot of your wants are going to be crushed for far longer than a 2nd term of Trump. The supreme court is a big reason why a lot of people who dislike Trump ended up getting behind him because they understood how damn important it is in controlling the supreme court to get some of your big goals passed.

They don't care and would probably concede coverage for abortion/HRT/Truvada if it got them Medicare for All. *shrugs*

[Edge-]

All this fighting and threats of not voting if the candidate that you want does not make it has me concerned. Everyone needs to remember that there is long term impacts if Donald Trump gets another 4 years, and the key one is Ruth Bader Ginsburg's deteriorating health. Some of you need to look towards the long term because if Donald Trump wins another 4 years and she dies during that time which I have a bad feeling is likely then a lot of your wants are going to be crushed for far longer than a 2nd term of Trump. The supreme court is a big reason why a lot of people who dislike Trump ended up getting behind him because they understood how damn important it is in controlling the supreme court to get some of your big goals accomplished.

Agreed. Democrats need to weaponize the SCOTUS as the Republicans have done. It worked out great for them.

But some people think that driving the country into the ground for 4 years will be fine, because it will lead to some kind of progressive uprising that will totes fix everything and we'll all be peachy keen and the Trump administration won't have done any permanent damage over 8 years. Nope. Not one bit. Please ignore the hundreds of lifetime judicial appointments made, those don't exist.

Idealism is once against diametrically opposed to practicality.

[Elegiac]

Agreed. Democrats need to weaponize the SCOTUS as the Republicans have done. It worked out great for them.

But some people think that driving the country into the ground for 4 years will be fine, because it will lead to some kind of progressive uprising that will totes fix everything and we'll all be peachy keen and the Trump administration won't have done any permanent damage over 8 years. Nope. Not one bit. Please ignore the hundreds of lifetime judicial appointments made, those don't exist.

Idealism is once against diametrically opposed to practicality.

Like I said.

Bernie Bros think they're being Lawful Good when they're being Lawful Stupid.

[xenogear3]

It should have an age limitation and health check.
Trump will either go crazy or die during his 2nd term.

[Drutt]

No in

We have gotten lucky. Lucky that he was constrained for half his term by very serious people advisers. Lucky that mueller wing clipped him. Lucky the Democrats won 2018. Lucky republicans didn’t fall in immediately which Bought time. Lucky impeachment dragged out 7 months.

But most of all we have gotten lucky there has been no true enormous criseses that test him. Just a few false starts. There has not been a major moment where only deft skill and a sharp mind gets us through it. We have been lucky he is not being challenged.

Our luck will run out. We can’t take the risk it won’t. He must be stopped.

I don't think we've been lucky at all. He's incompetent, lazy and more interested in the trappings of President than actually working as one. Doing real, lasting damage takes work, which is the one thing we can be sure he won't do.

If he gets re-elected (and I don't think he will, the margins of error last time were too fine for someone with his approval ratings/impeachment issues), he's not suddenly going to start working harder.

He loses almost every court case his administration is involved in, with a well under 10% win rate (lol). The rest of the world laughs at him. He was openly laughed at by most of the UN. He's a paper tiger in most regards, outside of executive orders. His staff think he's an idiot. Hundreds, perhaps thousands of federal positions are unfilled because he can't even be bothered to nominate anyone. Former employees, plural, write books, plural about how incompetent he is.

The lasting damage being done is largely through items that are nothing to do with him: namely, the shitstain left on a Senate unwilling to vote to convict a clearly guilty, corrupt man. And that's nothing to do with him, but a legacy of the weak men in the Senate and the poor checks and balances the US has. Remove Trump and those same weak men remain in office. Those same unfit checks and balances remain in place.

Trump's biggest opportunity for damage has passed: he had control of all three branches of government, and he did very little with it (because he's a lazy, incompetent manchild who wants to do little more than play golf, eat McDonalds and watch TV while tweeting). None of this makes him a good person (he's objectively not), but he's nowhere near the threat some make him out to be. He's the Nolanverse-Joker's proverbial dog chasing a car.

With any luck, we'll never get the opportunity to find out who is right.

[beanman12345]

It should have an age limitation and health check.
Trump will either go crazy or die during his 2nd term.

Need a IQ test check too.

[Fugus]

Sure you wouldn't just stay home like you did in 2016? I thought the official line from Sanders' supporters was that Warren was a secret republican snake.

I voted in 2016, I just wrote in Sanders rather than throw my vote away on Clinton.
I voted in 2018.
I voted in the special election since I was part of that district in North Carolina.
I will vote in 2020.

From what I read as for as the whole Warren/Sanders thing, Warren either tried to jockey for position and it backfired or she honestly thought he said something that would be completely out of character for him and that he denies. At which point she should have talked to him privately about such a thing before going public.

My biggest thing with Warren personally, is that she is too willing to play politics and not willing to hold her ground. She has already back tracked on Medicare for All which is what cost her support.

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They don't care and would probably concede coverage for abortion/HRT/Truvada if it got them Medicare for All. *shrugs*

If you cared, you would be trying to get Sanders a fair chance and keep his voters around instead of telling them to kick rocks because you personally don't like their views.

[Drutt]

Yes. And as I've said, that sort of "silver lining" is the refrain of people who had the means to insulate themselves.

No, it's the refrain of people who prefer to dealing with reality rather than trying to drum up hysteria. If you're concerned for people who can't "insulate themselves", then talk about specifics relating to that instead. It's not exactly hard. "The Trump administration is separating children from parents, arresting and holding US citizens in violation of their civil rights, and keeping people in unhealthy conditions that amount to modern day concentration camps." Took me perhaps 10 seconds to type, it has the bonus of actually being true, and as an added second bonus I didn't insult anyone in the process.

You won't win over people using hysteria and easily proven nonsense, most especially the people you need to win over. Obvious exaggerations as a huge turnoff to people not yet convinced. Stick to facts. They're more effective. There is more than enough to hit Trump over the head with without reducing things to a non-existent existential crisis.

Or you could talk about the end of the country and the evil of the mythical Bernie Bros instead, but I'll offer you a cast iron guarantee that you'll win precisely zero people over with that line of argument.