Could something be done to make people tank?

[Ariktu]

I do not tank because in many situations the other players do not let me get better. they push and rush me so I just do not tank. I have tanked a rare raid for a group of friends or done the off tank thing. I have only done that for friends who are more willing to deal with a screw up if I make a mistake.

Being willing or not to tank has zero to do with the DPS it does.

[SirCowdog]

Then what of the terrible players and mediocre players? An MMR system matches you with players of similar skill and ranking. These systems are great for PVP for obvious reasons, but not PVE. It's not designed at all for an environment like that. Terrible players vs terrible players works because you're facing things at your skill level... But if you're terrible players vs decently challenging content - you just end up with people quitting mid runs and never finishing it and quitting that content altogether.

Please don't confuse this suggestion as an attempt to remove people's ability to find groups. Manually made groups would still exist. I could even see an option for both ranked and unranked matchmaking being available. But there definitely needs to be something to help curb the nonsense that goes on in current random groups.

If people quit mid-run because they can't handle it, their rank goes down, and when using ranked mode they'd get put with people at their same level. People that stick it out would eventually rise and sort out their place in the ranking as well.

This isn't even remotely getting into how ilvl and classes play a fundamental role with how well you can perform in dungeons, M+ or raids too. It's not viable for it, because those ranking systems were designed for people facing other people, especially in controlled environments. It'd work great for those who are above-average or good at MMORPGs and then they'd always have great players to play with, but everyone else would kind of get fucked by the system.

I don't know how the actual details of the ranking system would work. That would, of course, be something for the devs to work out internally. I'm just talking about theoretical concepts. Any such system would of course have to take ilvl into account, among other factors.

I don't think "everyone else would get fucked by the system" would be something that would be implemented. Anyway, "I'm fucked by the system" sounds like something a bad player would use as an excuse because they don't like having their actual skill level shown to them. That's half the problem in current random groups: People thinking they're much better than they are, and shitting on anyone that doesn't meet their unrealistic and inflated sense of entitled perfection for groups.

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Wow you must only play top level mythic plus dungeons because I was in three earlier today were nobody cared about the tank pulling extra mops the only thing we cared about was the tank being a dumb ass and not understanding what AOE threat is on a Demon Hunter

If I understand correctly, when pushing higher keys, the extra time required to deal with an unexpected or unplanned pull can hurt the time of the overall run.

What happens, though, is that lower keys think this is super-critical because they don't actually understand the strategy or tactics of pushing higher keys. They're just emulating what the actual pros are doing. So they freak out when perfection doesn't happen, not because it's actually bad, but because they THINK it's what needs to happen.

It's the same thing that's been going on forever in wow. M+ just highlights it for tanks.

[Dimmak]

The only time I've played tank, it was when the DK blood a lot of damage from revenge, it was a lot of fun, until he was nerfed and I stopped playing it.
There is a big problem here, and there are very few tanks, because they are very boring and slow killing ... is there any solution? I have a solution, eliminate the tank role. Maybe they should invent a new role, maybe support or dps / tank ..or protector, something but that does not imply that you do less damage than a dps ... is that, what more hays are dps, precisely because they are fun.Every time there are fewer tanks, because they are increasingly boring.

I miss tanks dealing the same dps as dps when they were actually tanking. What I mean is they can't naturally do that much damage. But they should have reactive and reflective damage abilities for when a boss hits them. Make it hit hard but when you are sitting as off tank you can't really trigger these abilities.

This is so you can't just stack the raid with tanks.

Don't get me wrong in an aoe fight I pull some nice numbers as a bear but it would be nice to see those blood DK numbers again.

It probably won't happen though since we'd have the same complaint from DPS again.

[Lex Icon]

would you rather try to develop a system that tries to matchmake people who behave in a similar manner or just remove the dependency of the role?

[Liftinmammals]

I think the pressure of taking on responsibility like that to lead is what gets most. More often than not most groups look to the tank to keep things smooth. He is the guy controlling things and a lot of players just aren't interested in the pressure. They just want to play the game and that's ok. It just takes a certain kind of quality on a person to answer the call and take on that role.

[Sliske]

Remove tanks and healers and make all classes DPS/Tank hybrids or DPS/off-healers(support). And let talents define/enhance the roles further.

GW2 did this and it didn't work. See Island expeditions and scenarios for GW2-style content. ArenaNet even buckled and has continued to buckle over the years. First it was no dedicted healer, then they introduced an entire dedicated healer spec for rangers - the druid. Then elementalists could heal, then mesmer could tank and so on.

Worth noting that it isn't even a clean healer or tank role, either. Nope, they have to clunky do it, similar to how people turn Diablo 3 characters into tanks. They don't actually tank, they just dodge a lot. Its so dumb. Healers don't actually heal that much, they just apply regeneration and shit.

It would be kinda like if your ele shaman was your healer and your havoc DH was your tank. Just clunky as shit. Theres a reason no one raids in GW2.

If you think no one wants to play tank in WoW, wait till you play GW2 and see how it is - when every mesmer in your group has a battle for 'who has to tank' as no one wants to do it. Its so fucking boring - up there with TBC beastmastery hunter in terms of gameplay.

Nah, WoW has it perfect in the BFA era. Tanks aren't gods - they need a healer, unlike in legion. At the same time, they aren't a DPS, or better than a DPS, unlike in MoP. They also aren't pathetic and weak, like in vanilla and tbc. And they aren't devoid of all utility, unlike in WoTLK.

Nope, they're in the perfect spot right now. Decent damage, great survivability, great utility, great APM and decision making (for some tanks anyway.. sorry bears)

[Thelxi]

Is there really a shortage of tanks though?

[Mardux]

When something going wrong healer and tank are most blamed persons. When i tanking always is..."too slow" ..."too fast"...."not this route" "not this spot:"...

Really? 9 times out of 10, if a dps dies in a key they either did something they shouldn't or didnt do something they should.

[Dug]

Linear straight forward dungeons with unskippable trash packs is the only thing I can guess. A lot of the stress comes from M+ and how dungeon layouts are now but then that brings with it boredom so /shrug

[Revamp Man]

Please don't confuse this suggestion as an attempt to remove people's ability to find groups. Manually made groups would still exist. I could even see an option for both ranked and unranked matchmaking being available. But there definitely needs to be something to help curb the nonsense that goes on in current random groups.

If people quit mid-run because they can't handle it, their rank goes down, and when using ranked mode they'd get put with people at their same level. People that stick it out would eventually rise and sort out their place in the ranking as well.



I don't know how the actual details of the ranking system would work. That would, of course, be something for the devs to work out internally. I'm just talking about theoretical concepts. Any such system would of course have to take ilvl into account, among other factors.

I don't think "everyone else would get fucked by the system" would be something that would be implemented. Anyway, "I'm fucked by the system" sounds like something a bad player would use as an excuse because they don't like having their actual skill level shown to them. That's half the problem in current random groups: People thinking they're much better than they are, and shitting on anyone that doesn't meet their unrealistic and inflated sense of entitled perfection for groups.

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If I understand correctly, when pushing higher keys, the extra time required to deal with an unexpected or unplanned pull can hurt the time of the overall run.

What happens, though, is that lower keys think this is super-critical because they don't actually understand the strategy or tactics of pushing higher keys. They're just emulating what the actual pros are doing. So they freak out when perfection doesn't happen, not because it's actually bad, but because they THINK it's what needs to happen.

It's the same thing that's been going on forever in wow. M+ just highlights it for tanks.

Oh God the last time something like that happened we got the personal loot system in Master lube was destroyed in the item level walk was implemented fuck today’s going to be destroyed

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Is there really a shortage of tanks though?

Not really in my experience tanks prefer to go with people they know and most of the time they still don’t care

[ReVnX]

Increased off-spec drop chance

[SirCowdog]

Oh God the last time something like that happened we got the personal loot system in Master lube was destroyed in the item level walk was implemented fuck today’s going to be destroyed

Here's the difference:

Master loot was removed because entitled people cried and cried until they got what they wanted, even when they didn't deserve it.

Ranked matchmaking for groups is the opposite: Giving people exactly what they deserve based on their actual actions.

[Gref]

yesterday tried to do an atal dazar 10 with my own key.
i love discovering stuff by myself. I really really hate watching videos and copy paste them. it really kills the game for me.
Before the start I told the dps,

I am still new to this obelisk stuff, I do not know the skips so please bear with me.

Immediately pro rog dps leaves saying; lol go watch some videos. why you do not.

I feel terribly sorry for these people copy/paste everything they see and thinking they are playing the game.
For me it is directly accepting you are inferior to the people in the video. Why do you think they know the best? Cant you find something better? Or simply enjoy the satisfaction of discovering new stuff.

we are 2? 3 weeks in to the new season and you expect people to know all the skips in advance. Excuse me but with that attitude + this new affix enabling skips and you know dps will rage for not knowing skips, totally discouraging tanks I can say.

Gonna do +11KR tonight tho hehe.

[SirCowdog]

yesterday tried to do an atal dazar 10 with my own key.
i love discovering stuff by myself. I really really hate watching videos and copy paste them. it really kills the game for me.
Before the start I told the dps,

I am still new to this obelisk stuff, I do not know the skips so please bear with me.

Immediately pro rog dps leaves saying; lol go watch some videos. why you do not.

I feel terribly sorry for these people copy/paste everything they see and thinking they are playing the game.
For me it is directly accepting you are inferior to the people in the video. Why do you think they know the best? Cant you find something better? Or simply enjoy the satisfaction of discovering new stuff.

we are 2? 3 weeks in to the new season and you expect people to know all the skips in advance. Excuse me but with that attitude + this new affix enabling skips and you know dps will rage for not knowing skips, totally discouraging tanks I can say.

Gonna do +11KR tonight tho hehe.

Many people get their enjoyment out of mechanics and performance, and not exploration and discovery.

And to be fair, if you want to take your time and explore and derp around, do that with your friends. Did you put the nature of the run in the description? Or wait until people joined to tell them? Be honest. I'm not saying the people who rage against that are right, but you do need to go into random groups knowing what to expect.

[Firefall]

Remove necrotic, grieveous in m+ and add vengeance again.

Yes please. This. Like really m+ affixes are only hard for tanks.

[Super Kami Dende]

If a tank did the same damage as a dps, there would be no reason to play dps.

Well that isn't true at all. People would still play DPS far more. As evidence by when Vengeance was a Mechanic that allowed good tanks to absolutely destroy the DPS meters and People still played DPS far more.

Most DPS don't tank because Tanks don't do enough Damage. They don't tank because they don't like the role/responsibility or just like being lazy DPS.

[Osmeric]

The DPS have a lot of responsibilities, the problem is the insanely low skill level/reflexes, of the players overall, they prefer to whine than actually play the game to its full extent.

So, you're pointing out the game is poorly designed for the audience it has.

[Caprias]

I do like the idea of adding fights with more tanks. But it has the downside of putting more emphasis on raiding. Maybe they'd also have to change dungeons to need 2 tanks as well?

It would make for slower fights, as less DPS output would happen. Fights would inevitably become more complex as well.

Still, I think it's an idea worth exploring.

Why?
The thing is healer/tank balance, there are more healers simply because you need more for raiding, might not be the only reason but a big one.

If you invest in a character you want something out of it in the end-endgame, raiding is still a huge thing for pve but guilds usually only need 2 Tanks but up to 3-6 Healers, even a lot of pugs already have tanks they know.
1 heal 1 tank 3 dd's for dungeons seems quite optimal for me, no need for a change there i guess.

I really don't think the whole "players are mean to tanks" is a big factor in this, tanks aren't that hard to play anyway nowadays, i was able to learn the ropes and up my pace pretty fast and never had to deal with impatient dds again simply because i gave them stuff to mow down.

Sure, 1 out of 10 M+ random runs there is a douche simply ignoring healer mana or pulling too much, but even then they get the flak since it's usually pretty obvious who's at fault.

[Gref]

Many people get their enjoyment out of mechanics and performance, and not exploration and discovery.

And to be fair, if you want to take your time and explore and derp around, do that with your friends. Did you put the nature of the run in the description? Or wait until people joined to tell them? Be honest. I'm not saying the people who rage against that are right, but you do need to go into random groups knowing what to expect.

of course I did. I know obelisks will enable skips. or different pulls. So my description although it was short was; +10AD, 1st time with ADobeliskpatience

I am honest. I warned before we started and rog left, got a new person, and guess what it was cleared.

[Revamp Man]

Here's the difference:

Master loot was removed because entitled people cried and cried until they got what they wanted, even when they didn't deserve it.

Ranked matchmaking for groups is the opposite: Giving people exactly what they deserve based on their actual actions.

Blizzard tried this back in WoD
In order to do heroics via group finder you had to do silver proving grounds for that role

The result was terrible and I think there was a video about it by preach gaming

You see a rank based matchmaking system cannot work in WoW because you will have the worst players feel punished