So when will Blizzard stop giving players rental powers?

[Kalisandra]

I am glad they did what they did with Legion - it had to be done. I do wish they would review it a bit in Shadowlands, because nowadays Demo plays well, but its niches are not really viable in core content. You can't really have ST only + burst AoE ranged spec with shoddy mobility in a world where spread cleave or multidotting is generally king.

I love the concept of Demonology these days - they summon demons. Hordes and hordes of demons. The demons do most of the work.

I do think they need to change up BM Hunters though - they can feel too much like the same thing. If Demo summons hordes of demons, BM should be about having one really amazing pet.

[docterfreeze]

I'd have no problem with the temporary abilities and powerups if the base classes were fun. Build our spellbook back up and these rental powers would feel like less of a crutch.

[Kokolums]

This is not true at all. There are quite a few very strong Essences that are trivial to get and the necklace now is basically automatically punted to 55 with 70 easily within reach. You can burn through cloak levels extremely fast too off the back of basic gear. You can buy gold, mythic carries and be competitive probably in less than a week. No difference from older systems.

Your argument didn't work in Legion either as one AP item on a new alt eventually just put you like 10 ranks behind everyone else or something crazy.

Rental power just lets them slack on creating interesting specs. They don't need to make any systems that stand the test of time, or deal with small tweaks to core gimmicks in a spec. They can just throw shit like Igneous Potential at a spec and let it limp through content for 2 years barely functional.

Honestly thinking about it, that annoys the hell out of me. All of the pieces are there for every spec in the game to have some interesting pole to build a spec's gameplay around. Affliction used to have stuff like Soulburn and Reap Soul. Warlock themes have always included rituals and demonic summoning. Between Malefic Grasp, Shadow Bolt Nightfall procs, rituals, demons, Reap Soul, Soulburn, Haunt, etc there is enough there to build a killer Affliction spec. It nearly designs itself when you look at the pieces they've added and removed over the years and they still prefer this rented shit.

I never claimed Blizzard was *good* at employing rental powers to block buying carries.

[jzhbee]

They create THE SAME SYSTEM over and over. Just different flavour and since Legion they just change name - artifact power/azerite shit/ and now anima in shadowlands. Oh and luck, we can get random dude in new expansion that will unlock yet another tree with passive and active or two But it is totaly new and not just reskin of past systems like crucible :P

I don't know how many times the devs need to say "It's not AP, it's not AP, it's not AP" for people to stop saying "It's just AP"
From the interviews, it sounded more like War Resources/Valor, not AP.

[kaminaris]

Top class M+ leaderboards are filled with Destros for a good reason. The burst is ridiculous and is frequent enough to have teams play around it.

Demo is really unnecessary nowadays for M+ as Warlock, for the reasons I already stated - you do as well with Destruction and on top of that it's a great spec for raiding and FOTM in PvP.

Overall Warlocks are still weaker pick for M+, but as I said - if you want your +15 keys - you don't need to play Demo and if you want to push hard to the top - you don't bring Warlock anyway. Which leaves Demo with literally no use nowadays, unless you simply want to gimp yourself.

Demo is a spec that plays great, but it almost useless as it is now, given the great alternative just one click away. Blizz needs to address that in Shadowlands - Demo was always an underdog after rework, but right now it's simply pointless because its toolkit does not really cater to content we have.

Yeah the reason is nobody wants to play and gear up for demo. Top scores are like 2700 hard carried by DH/Rogue while doing +19 keys. Far from hard.
I've been doing +17 in demo (DH+Fury warr) without any magic strats so we are not there yet.

So yeah for lower keys like 19 destro is enough, people will start playing harder keys and either nobody will play destro or there will be some lonesome demo in there.

Cause realistically speaking anything that lives just about the duration of dot is lower keys.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't know how many times the devs need to say "It's not AP, it's not AP, it's not AP" for people to stop saying "It's just AP"
From the interviews, it sounded more like War Resources/Valor, not AP.

Cause we ain't gettin fooled by it?

The only real difference is that there will be (presumably) weekly cap and if you wen't over, you will be able to spend that on some other stuff.
I mean this is a good next iteration but almost the same as we have now. People with OCD had issues with it as my weekly cap was just 3xM island expedition.

The main problem with AP system WAS and hopefully won't be is that it was waaaay overpowered in legion. Now it just doesn't give you anything once you unlock those slots. In legion it was literally more efficient to farm AP than to upgrade your gear as each level gave you tons of power until concordance of LF which was about 0.5% dps per level. Now it is more like 0.05% per level.

[Nykolaz]

I agree! Add to it you have to grind this useless crap out if/when you return to get Pathfinder in old content. It's all busy work to keep the subscriptions coming. "All WORK, little play makes Jack a dull boy"-- and a miserable experience. Poor reflection on their programmers and content designers. Instead of sticking band-aids on open wounds [failed ideas], think harder, create better, and give us all a game that works for us, not against us.

[Doffen]

The main problem with AP system WAS and hopefully won't be is that it was waaaay overpowered in legion. Now it just doesn't give you anything once you unlock those slots. In legion it was literally more efficient to farm AP than to upgrade your gear as each level gave you tons of power until concordance of LF which was about 0.5% dps per level. Now it is more like 0.05% per level.

Stop spreading false information. Each point in concordance after the first one gave you around 0.1% dps upgrade. They even buffed it to 300 up from 200 for each point because it was so weak. It was a whole of 48 main stat in average counting from the proc, and for some specs in Legion main stat was less than half the strength of secondary.

The thing that gave you 0.5% from each was the first iteration of the artifact weapon. They said it was too strong, took it away and gave everyone 5% damage as a one pointer instead. I mean, that's what they learned after 7.0-7.1, 0.5% was too much. Which is why they decided to make concordance the way they made it in the first place

The overpowered weapon was made as an end expansion thing. It didn't affect anything but numbers. Concordance of Legionfall did not give you 0.5% per point. To even put that out here, literally lying just to try to achieve a point is just silly. You seem to be confused with the big numbers in Legion so you can't compare it properly to BfAs lowers numbers.

No matter how powerful it was, it was much better to have 2 things to upgrade compared to 4 that we have now. That was the a actual strength of Legions rental power instead of having to farm for 4 different power ups like in BfA. And I like how you don't include that we also got essences and corruption(again ) that gives you far more power per point than even the first iteration of the weapon ever gave us.

[FlubberPuddy]

No matter how powerful it was, it was much better to have 2 things to upgrade compared to 4 that we have now. That was the a actual strength of Legions rental power instead of having to farm for 4 different power ups like in BfA. And I like how you don't include that we also got essences and corruption(again ) that gives you far more power per point than even the first iteration of the weapon ever gave us.

It is pretty crazy how strong we can be nowadays. There's also the legendary cloak at rank 12 which will be an insane boost with the main stat 3.5k proc. Add it with all the above (plus being able to socket each piece of corrupt gear) and damn you can be crazy powerful above the artifact weapons.

It feels like we're getting to the point where we need some sort of paragon class to our classes imo (even though I know that our classes are technically what the prestige classes are from wc3).

Just seems like we're about to be surpassing "what a mage is" / "what a warrior is" / "what a shaman is" etc with the multiple unique effects (azerite traits) and item procs etc.

Feels a shame it's sort of all tied to gear and not inherently the classes. I hope we save more player power progression in Shadowlands and beyond.

[kaminaris]

Stop spreading false information. Each point in concordance after the first one gave you around 0.1% dps upgrade. They even buffed it to 300 up from 200 for each point because it was so weak. It was a whole of 48 main stat in average counting from the proc, and for some specs in Legion main stat was less than half the strength of secondary.

UNTIL concordance. Which means PREVIOUS points. Well maybe I worded it wrong but previous traits were super powerful. While each new concordance was indeed 0.1%.

The overpowered weapon was made as an end expansion thing. It didn't affect anything but numbers. Concordance of Legionfall did not give you 0.5% per point. To even put that out here, literally lying just to try to achieve a point is just silly. You seem to be confused with the big numbers in Legion so you can't compare it properly to BfAs lowers numbers.

Early artifact compared to your gear was even more powerful so for half of expansion each trait before concordance was super powerful and even more important than your entire gear.

No matter how powerful it was, it was much better to have 2 things to upgrade compared to 4 that we have now. That was the a actual strength of Legions rental power instead of having to farm for 4 different power ups like in BfA. And I like how you don't include that we also got essences and corruption(again ) that gives you far more power per point than even the first iteration of the weapon ever gave us.

No sorry that is just you being delusional. We don't power up anything besides AP back then and now.
We used to beg the mercy of RNG to get right legiondaries or delete character and try again if first 4 ones were bad.
Essences are deterministic, you know what you gotta do.
Tier sets no longer take 6 slot equipments and you can buy specific ones or drop specific ones from raid.
Corrupted gear is garbage as well but at least I don't need to farm all the shit I don't want to, to get the one I need.
And the drop rate isn't abysmally low so we would need bad luck protection.

Legion was absolute bottom of a pit when it comes to RNG in WoW. And absolute bottom when it comes to borrowed power.

[cparle87]

Oh we have more of this. "They did it to increase MAUs", "It's all Activision fault", etc. Seriously, I think many people don't even know what MAU is, in their mind it's some evil idol from Acti-Blizz shamans.

Nailed it. Every time Blizzard releases new content you'll have people go "They just added this to milk MAUs, this isn't REAL content."

[darklogrus]

I love the concept of Demonology these days - they summon demons. Hordes and hordes of demons. The demons do most of the work.

I do think they need to change up BM Hunters though - they can feel too much like the same thing. If Demo summons hordes of demons, BM should be about having one really amazing pet.

I like the concept as well along with general play. But when it comes to playing it in the new raid I actually hate it alot.

[Queen of Hamsters]

Oh we have more of this. "They did it to increase MAUs", "It's all Activision fault", etc. Seriously, I think many people don't even know what MAU is, in their mind it's some evil idol from Acti-Blizz shamans.

Indeed.

I also love the disconnected argument of proclaiming that "all they care about is keeping the cash cow running"... Like, they cannot do that unless they design content that makes people want to play...

Unlike the usual suspects of Mmo-C, normal people will stop paying for a product they do not enjoy spending time on. Free time is precious in our day and age.

So the only way to keep the cash cow going (although people always say how WoW brings pittance and never draws new customers anymore, another disconnected argument) is to create a game that draws and keeps people playing.

Alienating Customers would be something that only people with zero insight could ever consider a viable business model...

I adhered to the mentality for a while myself not long ago (Brutosaur mount outrage) but then I set feefees aside and looked at it through a lens of logic, and realized I was being a fool... Meanwhile, some here have been following the mentality with religious fervor for years...

[Doffen]

UNTIL concordance. Which means PREVIOUS points. Well maybe I worded it wrong but previous traits were super powerful. While each new concordance was indeed 0.1%.

I read it as the points were powerful while each concordance gave 0.5%. Then I am sorry for the misunderstanding.

- - - Updated - - -

It is pretty crazy how strong we can be nowadays. There's also the legendary cloak at rank 12 which will be an insane boost with the main stat 3.5k proc. Add it with all the above (plus being able to socket each piece of corrupt gear) and damn you can be crazy powerful above the artifact weapons.

It feels like we're getting to the point where we need some sort of paragon class to our classes imo (even though I know that our classes are technically what the prestige classes are from wc3).

Just seems like we're about to be surpassing "what a mage is" / "what a warrior is" / "what a shaman is" etc with the multiple unique effects (azerite traits) and item procs etc.

Feels a shame it's sort of all tied to gear and not inherently the classes. I hope we save more player power progression in Shadowlands and beyond.

Yeah, we are getting stronger and stronger and I am looking forward to see how much Ny'alotha will be "nerfed" by us dealing with the corruption more and more, and I kinda like the theme of that. We were super strong in Legion too, but I feel personally that to tie it to specs were better than what we have now overall. I don't mind rental power, but the feeling artifact weapon gave while the whole AP progression was more streamlined made the systems better in Legion in my opinion. One great thing they added in BfA is how AP counts for all specs. Looking back at Legion that was a bit rough gameplay wise.

[gushDH]

There are 2 basic alternatives:

1. Having a complex but constant system: This is great, but will eventually become boring. Cookie-cutter builds will be established and then it will be like the system does not exist at all.

2. Keeping the old systems and keep adding on them: The problem here is that the total system will become pointlessly complex. The sub-systems will not cooperate with each other, resulting in a total mess.

[Merin]

It is the exact same as the gear cycle. Saying it is lazy for them to keep coming up with new things, good or bad, doesn't really fit either.

Can’t imagine how daft a person would have to be to consider it the same. You may want to consider applying for a job, you may have a knack for destroying game systems.

Rental styled leveling and personal character growth has been shamed out of several games I can think of. It only persists in WoW due to extreme arrogance and refusal to come to grips with reality.

People can blame activision all they want, blizzard now has a team with multiple people with minimal game design history in charge and more others on top of that which have only shipped dogshit products and were hired due to desperation or nepotism.

[Nak88]

If they keep this trend, then hundreds of thousands of players like me won't ever touch Retail again.

[Cosmic Janitor]

It feels like we're getting to the point where we need some sort of paragon class to our classes imo (even though I know that our classes are technically what the prestige classes are from wc3).

Just seems like we're about to be surpassing "what a mage is" / "what a warrior is" / "what a shaman is" etc with the multiple unique effects (azerite traits) and item procs etc.

See I don't feel like that at all, certainly not on caster classes and neither on most melee. Half the things we do aren't related to our class, alot of power is from an item that I may change next week, it feels like I'm the rich merchants son that got his daddy to deck him out in artifacts and the best you can buy from artisans across the realm, because at the end of the day I'm still spamming noob-bolt and 2 other abilties in an endless rotation to whittle down my enemies.

For those knowledgable in manhua I feel essentially like the protagonist in a cultivation story that has trained his shit-tier basic moves beyond any reason because my "treasures" make up for the actual difference in power.

[Dapower]

It's just lazy design. The whole picturr is, they want to complete a pack of new stuff to make you buy an another expansion every few years, to keep the activision pleased. They first have to keep creating reasons to do so, a new lore or a new balance or a new marysuey trait. If you want better gameplay you shoud come play MoBAs with me. Its not about selling expansions in that market.

[kaminaris]

Indeed.

I also love the disconnected argument of proclaiming that "all they care about is keeping the cash cow running"... Like, they cannot do that unless they design content that makes people want to play...

Unlike the usual suspects of Mmo-C, normal people will stop paying for a product they do not enjoy spending time on. Free time is precious in our day and age.

So the only way to keep the cash cow going (although people always say how WoW brings pittance and never draws new customers anymore, another disconnected argument) is to create a game that draws and keeps people playing.

Yep, its common sense and obvious how business works. The moment i see "activision ruined blizzard" or "shareholders" pseudo argument is the moment I spot a mindless sheep.

Alienating Customers would be something that only people with zero insight could ever consider a viable business model...

I adhered to the mentality for a while myself not long ago (Brutosaur mount outrage) but then I set feefees aside and looked at it through a lens of logic, and realized I was being a fool... Meanwhile, some here have been following the mentality with religious fervor for years...

Well... brontosaur still is scum move. Whatever the reasons they have, I never said it's all about making artificial scarcity and making more money of the tokens but artificial scarcity WILL be a result of it. Blizzard is at fault here one way or another as if they said at the start of expansion, that this will be limited time only mount - no problem.
And their reasoning is also full of shit. "Like all dinosaurs, the Mighty Caravan Brutosaur’s days are numbered."
Well seems like other dinosaurs are doing juuuust fine.

It doesn't have to be all about money to be shit decision.

[Aliven]

So the only way to keep the cash cow going (although people always say how WoW brings pittance and never draws new customers anymore, another disconnected argument) is to create a game that draws and keeps people playing.

It is not the same as creating game people WANT to play and enjoy playing it.