[Lore]Blizzards big mistakes - When did it all start going wrong? And what caused it?

[dragi]

They should stop making crucial character from player, make a player as a witness...

[valky94]

• The final boss of WoD is Archimonde. No, not alternate timeline Archimonde. Blizzard decided that there is "one Legion that pervades across all timelines". Oh, and demons can only die if killed in the Twisting Nether, and Archimonde (who is an Eredar, not a demon) has now been retconned into being a demon. WTH? This completely negates the weight of Warcraft 3's ending, where the Night Elves sacrificed their immortality to defeat Archimonde and save the world. A complete spit on the face of Warcraft 3 players and Night Elf fans.

Archimonde got infused with so much fel power to the point that he became a demon, same thing with other eredar NPCs we encounter in legion who are classified as demons instead of humanoids

[Skildar]

• More hiding crucial plot twists and character development in ancilliary novels. Illidan Stormrage was salty that his brother, Malfurion, was so chad, that Illidan's crush Tyrande picked his Malfurion of him. He then run away to Outland to become a dictator, taking over the world, sacrificing innocents to empower himself, etc. He was an evil villain the player overthrew and killed in Burning Crusade. Then, in Legion, Illidan is now all of the sudden the great savior who will save our world from the Burning Legion. Wait, what? What is going on? Well, you will only find out if you had read a novel called Illidan, which retcons Illidan's backstory and explains that ACKSHUALLY he was working to fight against the Legion all along! (And for some inexplicable reason, didn't stop to tell us he was doing so, instead going "muwhahaha I'm so evil" the entire time...). None of this is explained ingame.

The whole thing about Illidan is very well explained in wc3 and legion. You just don't read quests... Xera sees him as a savior and a chosen one and he is not, it is only xera's pov.

[Ielenia]

• The entire WoD expansion was a filler expansion. Mists of Pandaria ended with an obvious lead in to Legion (which Blizzard admitted was supposed to be the next expansion)... and then we deteour to another planet in an alternate timeline that never comes back up again in the story. Felt like it only existed to cash in on the Warcraft movie that was releasing that year and featured the same characters.

When did this happen, please?

• More hiding crucial plot twists and character development in ancilliary novels. Illidan Stormrage was salty that his brother, Malfurion, was so chad, that Illidan's crush Tyrande picked his Malfurion of him. He then run away to Outland to become a dictator, taking over the world, sacrificing innocents to empower himself, etc. He was an evil villain the player overthrew and killed in Burning Crusade. Then, in Legion, Illidan is now all of the sudden the great savior who will save our world from the Burning Legion. Wait, what? What is going on? Well, you will only find out if you had read a novel called Illidan, which retcons Illidan's backstory and explains that ACKSHUALLY he was working to fight against the Legion all along! (And for some inexplicable reason, didn't stop to tell us he was doing so, instead going "muwhahaha I'm so evil" the entire time...). None of this is explained ingame.

When did this happen, please? As far as I recall, the only attacks against the Azerothian races were caused by Kael'Thas and his minions, which we find out, in the expansion itself, that he had sided with Kil'Jaeden for quite some time.

In Legion, Illidan is brought back and treated as the hero of the story who everyone worships... despite the fact that he is a backstabbing traitor and a brutal dictator who took over Outland and began using people's souls as fuel. Yet, the narrative and the characters of Legion treat him as this paragon who will lead everybody.

That is really not what went on in Legion. Illidan had to be rescued resurrected because Gul'Dan planned on using Illidan's body as Sargeras' next avatar. He is never treated as this "paragon who will lead everybody" by anyone. Except for X'era and maybe the Illidari. If you pick Kyan Sunfury.

The "Light" is retconned as not being a truly holy, righteous anchor in this chaotic world, but just "another side of the same coin" in a poor attempt at being "morally grey". Completely undermines why the Light was so special in the first place, and a spit upon paladin and priest players.

Was it really retconned, considering we had paladins and priests on both factions, killing each other? I think it was pretty obvious that the "Holy Light" was never as "holy" as people made it out to be to anyone with a bit of a critical eye.

Azshara and the Naga storyline being hyped up for years, being an expansion's worth of material with several subplots and dozens of involved characters. Is dealt with in a single raid. Worse, despite Azshara having comitted mass genocide and being one of the most evil characters in the setting, the protagonists just let her go so she can come back as a quest NPC in another expansion.

I never felt like that about Azshara. The naga have always been about Azshara and... that's it. And Azshara was not "dealt with". Did you not raid Ny'alotha? She walks away, ready to cause more trouble in the future.

The N'zoth storyline being hyped up for years, being an expansion's worth of material with several subplots and dozens of involved characters. Is dealt with in a single raid. Worse, Blizzard kept insisting that N'zoth had a master plan... only for him to turn out to be a nothing throw away baddie who is killed in a forty second long cutscene.

"Throwaway baddie". How else do you think N'Zoth should have been handled? Never made into a raid boss?

There were no consequences in BFA. A godzilla monster shoots a laser beam at Daz'Alor, and yet when you walk around the city, all is fine. Daz'Alor is raided by the Alliance, and yet when you walk around the city, all is fine. N'zoth is released... and then he doesn't do anything. He is killed, and all is fine.

The Alliance AND the Horde raided Orgrimmar. The city is all fine.

The premise of the eigth expansion, Shadowlands, revolves around traveling to the death realm. It is revealed that when people die, their souls are sent to the Shadowlands and used as a fuel for the people who inhabit the Shadowlands, powering their machines. This just seals the deal on modern WoW's nihilism, where nothing means anything at all, and a spit in the face of characters like Crusader Bridenbrad, who had an entire storyline revolving around his impending death and the comfort that he would go to the Light (way back when the Light was actually good and holy, and not just some "another side of the same coin").

Wrong. "Anima" is not the souls of the dead. Anima is the Shadowlands equivalent of 'mana'. Anima is the energy your soul generates through actions in the living world, and released when you die and your soul enters Shadowlands. It's not "your soul".

[zlygork]

They should stop making crucial character from player, make a player as a witness...

That is also my favorite type of storytelling in MMOs, there is no way of including the PC and making it satisfying imo. It's not like your character actually soloed any raid boss anyway.

That aside, I think the biggest problem with wow's story at the moment is their raging boner for suspense. It doesn't work when you only get to read 2 more pages of the book every half a year. The wait is too long for suspense to feel rewarding, it feels nonsensical and punishing instead.

Also, blizzard is at their best when shit is leaning towards Black and White and there are big explosions and planets getting stabbed.

[DemonHunter18]

everything went to shit when WC3 ended and WoW began.

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When did this happen, please?When did this happen, please? As far as I recall, the only attacks against the Azerothian races were caused by Kael'Thas and his minions, which we find out, in the expansion itself, that he had sided with Kil'Jaeden for quite some time.

he was sacrificing innocent souls and lives to empower his portals.

Illidan was straight up evil up in TBC up until they released Illidan novel.

[allawyn]

Blizzard did some dumb things. But they had recovered a lot in Legion. The place where things "fell off a cliff" and lead to the state of the game today was BfA. Bad mechanics and doing a hatchet job on lore that people saw their characters through turned out to be a mistake.

[DemonHunter18]

The whole thing about Illidan is very well explained in wc3 and legion. You just don't read quests... Xera sees him as a savior and a chosen one and he is not, it is only xera's pov.

yeah, WoW's version of WC3 but not the the original game.

[formerShandalay]

everything went to shit when WC3 ended and WoW began.

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he was sacrificing innocent souls and lives to empower his portals.

Illidan was straight up evil up in TBC up until they released Illidan novel.

He still did that in the novel. Souls from the still living and souls from the dead (in Auchindoun). Only his reasons for doing it were explained in the book, otherwise nothing was changed compared to his characterization before. Only Xe'ra wanted us to see him as a "one true hero" and the only one who could save the universe so it could feel good about forcing the role on him.

[DemonHunter18]

He still did that in the novel. Souls from the still living and souls from the dead (in Auchindoun). Only his reasons for doing it were explained in the book, otherwise nothing was changed compared to his characterization before. Only Xe'ra wanted us to see him as a "one true hero" and the only one who could save the universe so it could feel good about forcing the role on him.

it did though.

Illidan craved for power as he literally said that to Furion and Tyrande.

there was no behind the scenes stuff.

they only revealed that after more than 10 years.

[emilpor]

Blizzard's mistakes started somewhere WoD and kind of settled during Legion, with a definitive nail hammered to the coffin in BFA (imo).

I see people complaining about WoD. Boooo hoo. It was a good expansion, even if it didn't make sense in the lore.
I loved how they introduced the cinematic cutscenes and story-telling mode to quests. There was still epic-ness to the game, it's just that they didn't deliver a whole bunch of content, because of the Overwatch investment (i believe).

Some of the main problems that(i believe) drove people away were mostly: social experimenting on people, the clear drop in quality of work starting with WoD, the double down on RNG with the start of Legion, the removal/trivialization of everything that was remotely valuable and making end-game just a huge pain for little reward.

I took a break when I first heard of "pandas". For me the concept of having actual pandas in WoW was pathetic, but the expansion happened and it seems a lot of people even liked it.
I, returned before the start of WoD. I loved that expansion. The whole atmosphere, the gameplay and the pace (even though a lot of people like their expansions to roll faster, I very much loved the pace of WoD. It gave me time to do everything and I actually had time to play and enjoy PVP (im mostly a PVE player).

In Legion, the pace skyrocketed, so I had less time to do any PVP, but no problem, I focused on PVE mostly.
The content was good, I loved the first half of it (for me, Legion mostly ended after Gul'Dan). The story was interesting and everything was overall nice (except gameplay balancing). I actually played until the opening of Antorus. My guild was defeated by the Avatar of Sargeras on Mythic in that expansion, unfortunately. (because people were burned out)

Here comes the RNG double down. Drop-able Legendary items and titanforging.
Let's completely forget about the devaluation of Legandaries (and the fact that I, a core member of one of the top 10 guilds on my realm did not get my bis legendaries until the end of the expansion, which rendered me benched, even though I farmed the hell out of them in m+), and focus on the titanforging.
This crap system was the beginning of the end.
This system completely threw high-end raiding under the bus. Devalued armor and removed the sentiment of "completeness"(that feeling when you are done with your character for the moment, it's at it's best potential).
The only rewards left were cosmetics(hey, those are good too! imo).
Yep, so if those are the last worthwhile rewards that you can get from clearing the difficult content, they removed that also. (with BFA)
Not only the cosmetics, but the fundamental ... system that we were used to (get your tiers first, to start doing being a bit stronger, then focus on the rest -> which for me was a great feeling every expansion).

Now we have some gameplay, but unrewarding experience overall.
Puke-inducing, cringe worthy & kid-tailored story, but increasingly harder end-game with increasingly lower rewards.
I sometimes add 30 days, just to look around. I love the art & soundtrack, especially the ones that were recently added in the Naga patch.
I wonder for like a week or so, finish everything that is to be done and then log off, for a year or so.

I keep my eye on mmo-champion every 6 months for updates, to see if there's something interesting, but it seems there isn't.
Same old stuff or worse (W3 Reforged).

I'd be excited to play WoW again, I've always wanted to play WoW, but not at the cost of being insulted by Blizzard for my money.
They can offer a free monthly subscription to those who agree to be experimented on, but not on me, on my money.

Their problems started when they merged with Activision and those problems will never go away.

[Mehrunes]

The whole thing about Illidan is very well explained in wc3 and legion. You just don't read quests... Xera sees him as a savior and a chosen one and he is not, it is only xera's pov.

First of all, it wasn't. WC3 Illidan was a power hungry maniac. He was only slightly retconned in the WotA trilogy. On top of that, given how @Val the Moofia Boss' point was that retconned in Legion, pointing out to Legion's quests as proof how it was explained isn't really an argument against the retcon. Especially since that "explanation" was just Xe'ra showing us random garbage Illidan was doing and fawning over how pure his heart was.

When did this happen, please? As far as I recall, the only attacks against the Azerothian races were caused by Kael'Thas and his minions, which we find out, in the expansion itself, that he had sided with Kil'Jaeden for quite some time.

Do Azerothian races have a monopoly on innocents or something? Because if not, nothing you said here even addresses the point you were responding to there.

That is really not what went on in Legion. Illidan had to be rescued resurrected because Gul'Dan planned on using Illidan's body as Sargeras' next avatar. He is never treated as this "paragon who will lead everybody" by anyone. Except for X'era and maybe the Illidari. If you pick Kyan Sunfury.

All Class Orders and Dalaran were involved in getting Illidan back because of how amazing and special he was. Just like they were involved in Xe'ra's storytelling about how amazing and special he was.

"Throwaway baddie". How else do you think N'Zoth should have been handled? Never made into a raid boss?

That's some weird false dichotomy you're operating on here.

[Traveler Voltin]

i would say the novel that tied in bfa. i dont remember the name. the push of Calia and retcon forsaken lore.

[ravenmoon]

• The "Light" is retconned as not being a truly holy, righteous anchor in this chaotic world, but just "another side of the same coin" in a poor attempt at being "morally grey". Completely undermines why the Light was so special in the first place, and a spit upon paladin and priest players.

The Light thing was the worse - (and I know some people like that) but it totally changes what the light is, and I was like wtf, this is not good.

Like re-inventing concepts that don't need it. The light was fine as it was for what it represented... and if the "light" can be what they showed it in legion, there are better ways to do it.. the writers don't get such concepts.

[kansor]

That sounds like more than similar, it sounds like an almost identical copy paste

I looked it up. In WH the male leader is named Orion, in WC3 it's Furion. Both of them have stag horns and a big cape of leaves. So yeah. The Sundering is also taken from Warhammer, name and all.

In the same vein, D&D Forgotten Realms has the elf city of Silverymoon and the elf moon goddess Selune.

[Ielenia]

he was sacrificing innocent souls and lives to empower his portals.

Illidan was straight up evil up in TBC up until they released Illidan novel.

Again, when? You're saying it happened, ok, but I want to know when this information was made public, so I can verify it, please.

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Do Azerothian races have a monopoly on innocents or something? Because if not, nothing you said here even addresses the point you were responding to there.

And what you wrote there makes zero sense and I fail to see how it even connects to what I wrote.

All Class Orders and Dalaran were involved in getting Illidan back because of how amazing and special he was. Just like they were involved in Xe'ra's storytelling about how amazing and special he was.

Um... what? I had a mage, a dh, a dk, a warrior and a paladin during Legion, and I only remember dealing with rescuing Illidan with my DH and the Illidari. Unless you're talking about the fight against Gul'Dan, at which point I refer to my previous post: they were there to stop Gul'Dan from turning Illidan's body into Sargeras' next avatar.

That's some weird false dichotomy you're operating on here.

Except there is zero dichotomies in what I wrote, much less false ones. I asked how he would have rather N'Zoth be handled, and I offered one idea that came into my mind. At no point whatsoever I put it as "either this or that".

[Reinhart11]

I think in regards to the factions, Alliance and Horde, it really started with MoPs story. Maybe even with Green Jesus and Varians crap comics and book in Cataclysm. Blizzards desire, or the desire of the authors, to teach players badly thought through morality lessons is the core of all problems. A lot of races got their identity destroyed long before MoP though, like the Tauren, Darkspear and the elven races.

[Skildar]

First of all, it wasn't. WC3 Illidan was a power hungry maniac. He was only slightly retconned in the WotA trilogy. On top of that, given how @Val the Moofia Boss' point was that retconned in Legion, pointing out to Legion's quests as proof how it was explained isn't really an argument against the retcon. Especially since that "explanation" was just Xe'ra showing us random garbage Illidan was doing and fawning over how pure his heart was.

In warcraft 3, illidan is clearly shown at the mercy of the demons and trying to escape their grip. That's the whole reason he went to outland. He thought he could gain some power and hide from the eredar. He never was a legon pawn, just struggling to bring them down.
His whole power hungry crazy aspect was inherited from the books by Knaak.

[DemonHunter18]

Again, when? You're saying it happened, ok, but I want to know when this information was made public, so I can verify it, please.

it was literally stated in DH starting experience.

and in the book.

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In warcraft 3, illidan is clearly shown at the mercy of the demons and trying to escape their grip. That's the whole reason he went to outland. He thought he could gain some power and hide from the eredar. He never was a legon pawn, just struggling to bring them down.
His whole power hungry crazy aspect was inherited from the books by Knaak.

no, Anti-Hero stuff comes from Knaak.

power hungry maniac comes from WC3.

[Mehrunes]

And what you wrote there makes zero sense and I fail to see how it even connects to what I wrote.

You not understanding what you're replying to and - self-admittedly - not seeing how it even connects to what you wrote doesn't mean what I wrote makes zero sense. @Val the Moofia Boss wrote in the relevant point that Illidian sacrificed innocent. Your "rebuttal" to that was mentioning how it was Kael, not Illidan, who comitted the only attacks against "the Azerothian races". But what if I told you that there are these groups of people called "not Azerothian races"? Which also happen to be the groups that Illidan, not Kael, sacrificed? Do you see now how your "rebuttal" there doesn't actually address what you quoted?

Um... what? I had a mage, a dh, a dk, a warrior and a paladin during Legion, and I only remember dealing with rescuing Illidan with my DH and the Illidari. Unless you're talking about the fight against Gul'Dan, at which point I refer to my previous post: they were there to stop Gul'Dan from turning Illidan's body into Sargeras' next avatar.

No, I'm talking about the giant floating core of Xe'ra being present in any and all Class Order Hall in 7.0 and our Class NPCs sending us to help the Illidari with the search for Illidan in 7.2.

Except there is zero dichotomies in what I wrote, much less false ones. I asked how he would have rather N'Zoth be handled, and I offered one idea that came into my mind. At no point whatsoever I put it as "either this or that".

Instantly going to the complete extreme of not actually doing anything with N'Zoth as the alternative to what was done with him in light of the latter being criticized looks rather dichotomic.

In warcraft 3, illidan is clearly shown at the mercy of the demons and trying to escape their grip. That's the whole reason he went to outland. He thought he could gain some power and hide from the eredar. He never was a legon pawn, just struggling to bring them down.
His whole power hungry crazy aspect was inherited from the books by Knaak.

Illidan being at the mercy of the Legion and trying to escape their grip after he failed with his initial plan of tackling the Lich King for Kil'Jaeden is neither here nor there to the topic at hand. Likewise, no one called him a Legion's pawn and it's also completely besides the point. As for your claim about Knaak's books, that's simply flat out wrong. The power-hungry maniac stuff comes directly from WC3's manual and the original description of WotA contained therein. It's Knaak's books that softened this.