if you have to call one of these characters, a mary sue, which one would it be??

[Mehrunes]

Given that we have seen and even taken part in Jiana’s profess in power with things like the throne of thunder staff quest I’d say sylvanas is more of one if i had to pick with her just getting a massive powerboost off screen and doing what ever she needs with it while jiana sticks to known mage ability’s.

Except for the part where we didn't. Jaina's own quest text in that ToT quest says she was acting on a rumor. That rumor was explicitly false and we've known it to be false for ages. We've also seen Wrathion being the one to actually get something from Thunder King in that exact same patch. Meanwhile Sylvanas got power from a soul engine that also serves as a power source to something akin to a god. And she used it to get more varied magical arrows, which she used prior to it as well, as well as dark death-related magic which she also used previously as well. Congrats, yet again every single thing you said here is wrong.

[Cathululock]

but they are not. you could very well ask :
what if you had to call one of those vegetable a banana?

it just doesn't work

Both in this case. keep simpen'

[schwarzkopf]

Neither - neither even closely fits the definition of a Mary Sue... not even close.

[Aucald]

It's also a disingenuous one. Of those, Kael'thas is functionally dead at the end and has to be resurrected much weaker and we foil his plans in TK. Garrosh loses and is put in chains. Gul'dan has already been foiled, Illidan just finishes him off and Azshara is crawling on the ground and requires N'zoth to bail her out. Ditto, Helya is at least disrupted and Odyn is freed. Jaina is neither foiled - since she succeeds in what she aimed to do, that being delaying the PCs and securing the escape of most of the army - nor injured, there's an off-hand line about how she's still recovering, but that's in a cutscene five seconds later and she's completely functional the next time we see her. Not even her health bar is down, for fuck's sake.

Kael'thas isn't resurrected, though; he was saved from death by Delrissa's intervention and even snarks to A'dal about being "beaten but alive," and how A'dal's champions failed to finish their jobs (by killing him). Garrosh is completely alive at the end of SoO, and him being put in prison and on trial a bit later speaks to that. The list was about people who did not *die* in their star turn as the final boss of a raid, and how Jaina was not unique. Your charge of me being disingenuous is mostly a laundry list of quibbles that don't actually change the fact that these examples are quite alive. Helya doesn't die, either; confirmed to be alive and recovering in BfA. Also, in-game health bars don't equal lore, as has been debated and discussed many times now. There's a canon statement in cut-scene that she was injured and needed time to recover, how much or how little time is again just a quibble. Like the rest of the list she was hurt but survived her star turn as a raid boss.

If she'd have to recover for the next patch, not only would that make the fight more meaningful while preserving Jaina's tactical victory in achieving her goal for the Alliance and so putting them in the lead, but the plot would make more sense. In 8.1.5 it'd exacerbate why Derek is a danger to her and why Jaina considers it a risk for herself to go meet with Baine, whereas normally she'd be able to ice everyone there with ease. In 8.2, with Jaina not at her best for a while there'd be a reason why she doesn't just lift the ships as they tumble into the abyss at Nazjatar and either give her a mini-story where she buffs back up there with the help of the samurai fish or Bob or focus on Shandris more. The benefits are endless.

The list wasn't about the quality of plot nor making the Battle of Dazar'alor "more meaningful," it was to point out that the statement that Jaina is the sole boss who survives her raid is a false one on several scores.

[Mehrunes]

The Thunder King staff thing is bullshit, since she never actually uses it ever again and she's markedly weaker in War Crimes.

The Thunder King staff is bullshit because it never existed to begin with. The staff is placed on the dais in the middle of his throne room to drain that room because Jaina heard a rumor that Lei Shen's source of power was hidden there. But that rumor was pure bullshit. Lei Shen's power came from what he stole from Ra (including the bit of Aman'thul's soul hidden in Ra). And we've seen Wrathion get the same vision Ra got when he at Lei Shen's heart, making it clear he's the one to get something from the Thunder King. Becase Lei Shen's heart actually came from where Lei Shen's source of power was, i.e. Lei Shen himself. Jaina got the power of millennia of uncleaned dust.

Plot convenience-wise, "My entire country decides to embrace love and peace because I had a flashback that proved the exact opposite, and I'm a victim in ToW despite being the aggressor in Cataclysm" ranks about the same as "Oh, I was actually winning all along, despite failing at every turn".

Technically Sylvanas was secretly playing a different game altogether so her failing at what her opponents assumed she was playing at and her actual underwater checkers on fire are two different things.

lol oh damn. thats a list lol.

That's a list that doesn't actually address what @Aucald was replying to. All of those characters have been significantly impaired, like Kael had to be put on Fel crystal life support. Meanwhile the post they were replying to was about raid bosses that survived their own fight unharmed. So this list is completely immaterial. The only thing Aucald said that was actually on point was half a sentence on how Jaina "needed some time to recover". Nothing more. And even then, recover from what? And how much is that some time? She didn't mention anything in particular and physically she didn't even appear to get a finger cut. For all we know she needed time to recover from nothing more than exertion. Especially since she was up and running as if nothing ever happened shortly afterwards.

[Super Dickmann]

Kael'thas isn't resurrected, though; he was saved from death by Delrissa's intervention and even snarks to A'dal about being "beaten but alive," and how A'dal's champions failed to finish their jobs (by killing him). Garrosh is completely alive at the end of SoO, and him being put in prison and on trial a bit later speaks to that. The list was about people who did not *die* in their star turn as the final boss of a raid, and how Jaina was not unique. Your charge of me being disingenuous is mostly a laundry list of quibbles that don't actually change the fact that these examples are quite alive. Helya doesn't die, either; confirmed to be alive and recovering in BfA. Also, in-game health bars don't equal lore, as has been debated and discussed many times now. There's a canon statement in cut-scene that she was injured and needed time to recover, how much or how little time is again just a quibble. Like the rest of the list she was hurt but survived her star turn as a raid boss.

These aren't quibbles, since I never disputed they were alive, it's that them being alive doesn't make them comparable to Jaina as in my post I explained that Jaina was neither foiled nor meaningfully harmed, both being true, something that applies to no other end boss. Kael'thas lost Tempest Keep and was fixed by Delrissa, turning him into a gaunt crack addict. The Heart of Y'shaarj was destroyed and the True Horde lost while Garrosh's loss meant he was taken captive. Consequences followed from the raid encounter, no consequences follow from Jaina's raid encounter - her injury consists of an off-handed line and she's able to function at full capacity for the entire rest of the expansion. Given that she succeeded in her goal and took no harm that wasn't resolved by her next appearance, the entire encounter might as well not have happened, everyone involved could have gone home and the same chain of events would play out going forward. That is unique among all end bosses and among faction bosses within this same raid.

[Mehrunes]

i dont disagree but he claimed "only one to ever come out of a fight unharmed". By just that, Jaina did get harmed, same as Garrosh or Azshara. Just the end result wasnt one in chains or imprisonment for torture. Had he said, "only one ever to come out of a fight ahead" then he would have been 100% correct.

@Aucald's list is 100% immaterial to that anyway.

[Aucald]

These aren't quibbles, since I never disputed they were alive, it's that them being alive doesn't make them comparable to Jaina as in my post I explained that Jaina was neither foiled nor meaningfully harmed, both being true. Jaina achieved her goal and she didn't suffer any consequences as a result nor did she change. Kael'thas lost Tempest Keep and was raised by Delrissa. The Heart of Y'shaarj was destroyed and the True Horde lost. Consequences followed from the raid encounter, no consequences follow from Jaina's raid encounter - her injury consists of an off-handed line and she's able to function at full capacity for the entire rest of the expansion. Given that she succeeded in her goal and took no harm, the entire encounter might as well not have happened, everyone involved could have gone home and the same chain of events would play out going forward.

They're quibbles because them being alive and kicking after their raids is was the entire point of the list - not a debate as to which of the survivors had it worst, or best, or whatever. Jaina achieving her goal or not achieving her goal is immaterial to the question of whether she is alone in the ranks of final bosses who survived as final boss of a raid. It wasn't about consequences or "victory," it was about surviving the raid. The claim was "Jaina is the *only* final raid boss to survive her raid unharmed," which is demonstrably a false one. Moving the goalposts as to what that claim means isn't really a great way to try to make it sound true.

[vipers]

Sylvanas just can't lose

[Mehrunes]

Garrosh is saved from Y'shaarj's influence and maneuvered into a place where he gets to head out to a whole new world and start up his own Horde, again. Yeah, we foil his plans for Stormwind, but we put him in a strong position (where he again tries to destroy Stormwind). I fully agree that I wouldn't count Gul'dan. Azshara is the only person that we fail to foil the plan (N'zoth is freed), escapes relatively unharmed (we see no permanent damage to her), and then we help in the next (major) content patch (by freeing her from N'zoth's clutches). I'm sure I'm missing other hostile survivals among raid bosses. Mekkatorque we fail to kill and inadvertently help in the next major content patch by helping out the mechagnomes that later save him; he is out of commission for awhile, but I can't say that I really noticed his absence (they could've put in situations where someone mentions he could've helped the Alliance, just to show that his loss was actually somewhat impactful).

We're not the ones who put him there. Wrathion was. Celestials and their sham trial may get some credit. And that doesn't change the fact that we smacked Garrosh so hard we beat Y'Shaarj's power from him. From which he didn't need any saving since as per Blizzard commentary he wasn't corrupted or anything of the sorts. Garrosh was in control in that regard.

[Super Dickmann]

They're quibbles because them being alive and kicking after their raids is was the entire point of the list - not a debate as to which of the survivors had it worst, or best, or whatever. Jaina achieving her goal or not achieving her goal is immaterial to the question of whether she is alone in the ranks of final bosses who survived as final boss of a raid. It wasn't about consequences or "victory," it was about surviving the raid. The claim was "Jaina is the *only* final raid boss to survive her raid unharmed," which is demonstrably a false one. Moving the goalposts as to what that claim means isn't really a great way to try to make it sound true.

I never claimed in my post that she was the only one to survive, so you're right, but meaninglessly so. Especially since while talking about moving goalposts you move them within this post from "Only raid boss to survive" to "Only raid boss to survive unharmed" - Garrosh, Kael, KJ and Azshara were all harmed. They all visibly either failed in their objective or were physically harmed or altered in some way. Being unharmed and surviving are notably different - it is you who is equating these things for some baffling reason.

Unless you're going to with a straight face tell me that us kicking Kael's ass and forcing a demon to jam a crystal in his chest to turn him weaker after busting his door down and kicking him out of his ship is equivalent to Jaina successfully stopping the Horde and then running away to be effectively fine in every subsequent appearance and constitute equivalent levels of 'harm'.

[Mehrunes]

Kael'thas isn't resurrected, though; he was saved from death by Delrissa's intervention and even snarks to A'dal about being "beaten but alive," and how A'dal's champions failed to finish their jobs (by killing him). Garrosh is completely alive at the end of SoO, and him being put in prison and on trial a bit later speaks to that. The list was about people who did not *die* in their star turn as the final boss of a raid, and how Jaina was not unique. Your charge of me being disingenuous is mostly a laundry list of quibbles that don't actually change the fact that these examples are quite alive.

The irony of you lodging this remark against @Super Dickmann when that list of yours was a reply to a post by @Grazrug in which they talked about raid bosses that survived their fight unharmed and not simply raid bosses that just survived is beyond measure. Because those examples being alive is immaterial to the post you were replying to (nor are they in any way comparable to how few hardships Jaina suffered). Which was, you know, Super Dickmann's actual point.

The list wasn't about the quality of plot nor making the Battle of Dazar'alor "more meaningful," it was to point out that the statement that Jaina is the sole boss who survives her raid is a false one on several scores.

But why would you point out that a statement no one in this thread made is inaccurate?

[Aucald]

I never claimed in my post that she was the only one to survive, so you're right, but meaninglessly so. Especially since while talking about moving goalposts you move them within this post from "Only raid boss to survive" to "Only raid boss to survive unharmed" - Garrosh, Kael, KJ and Azshara were all harmed. They all visibly either failed in their objective or were physically harmed or altered in some way. Being unharmed and surviving are notably different - it is you who is equating these things for some baffling reason.

Unless you're going to with a straight face tell me that us kicking Kael's ass and forcing a demon to jam a crystal in his chest to turn him weaker after busting his door down and kicking him out of his ship is equivalent to Jaina successfully stopping the Horde and then running away to be effectively fine in every subsequent appearance and constitute equivalent levels of 'harm'.

I didn't make the original claim, I only refuted it - "only raid boss to survive unharmed" are the exact words made in the original post to which I replied. Jaina was also harmed, as confirmed by the cut-scene in Boralus, so no moving of the goalposts there unless you want to make the claim that "oh she was harmed, but not enough for it to actually matter for reasons I can't get into." So yes, the claim stands as countered, as she both survived but was harmed, just like the rest of the list provided.

Equivalent levels of harm was never in the original claim, which is why I said that it doesn't matter - she didn't escape unscathed, nor did the rest of the others. She may have got off lighter than the others, sure; but that wasn't the claim so it's immaterial and thus just a quibble because you don't like Jaina as a character. I would agree if the claim was "she's a final raid boss who survived and got off light in terms of injury," but that wasn't the claim originally made, either.

[Mehrunes]

They're quibbles because them being alive and kicking after their raids is was the entire point of the list - not a debate as to which of the survivors had it worst, or best, or whatever. Jaina achieving her goal or not achieving her goal is immaterial to the question of whether she is alone in the ranks of final bosses who survived as final boss of a raid. It wasn't about consequences or "victory," it was about surviving the raid. The claim was "Jaina is the *only* final raid boss to survive her raid unharmed," which is demonstrably a false one. Moving the goalposts as to what that claim means isn't really a great way to try to make it sound true.

So us beating Garrosh so hard he lost the power from heart of Y'Shaarj and was so weak he couldn't fight back constitutes him being unharmed? Us doing the same to Gul'dan (just swap the empowerment to a Fel one) constitutes him being unharmed? You're operating on some really weird definition of harm here. Which makes your remark about moving the goalposts to make one's argument sound true extremely hollow.

I didn't make the original claim, I only refuted it - "only raid boss to survive unharmed" are the exact words made in the original post to which I replied. Jaina was also harmed, as confirmed by the cut-scene in Boralus, so no moving of the goalposts there unless you want to make the claim that "oh she was harmed, but not enough for it to actually matter for reasons I can't get into." So yes, the claim stands as countered, as she both survived but was harmed, just like the rest of the list provided.

A list of bosses that were quite explicitly harmed (to the point that Helya was presumed dead) does in no way, shape or form refute anything in regards to @Grazrug's point on how Jaina was the only raid boss to survive unharmed. This is a really weird choice of a hill to die on.

[Super Dickmann]

I didn't make the original claim, I only refuted it - "only raid boss to survive unharmed" are the exact words made in the original post to which I replied. Jaina was also harmed, as confirmed by the cut-scene in Boralus, so no moving of the goalposts there unless you want to make the claim that "oh she was harmed, but not enough for it to actually matter for reasons I can't get into." So yes, the claim stands as countered, as she both survived but was harmed, just like the rest of the list provided.

Equivalent levels of harm was never in the original claim, which is why I said that it doesn't matter - she didn't escape unscathed, nor did the rest of the others. She may have got off lighter than the others, sure; but that wasn't the claim so it's immaterial and thus just a quibble because you don't like Jaina as a character. I would agree if the claim was "she's a final raid boss who survived and got off light in terms of injury," but that wasn't the claim originally made, either.

The harm she suffered was nonexistent. Again - suppose that she and the raid group all went home immediately after Blockade. Absolutely no aspect of the plot would change one iota. She's already 'recovered' in the meeting she has immediately after the raid. She didn't get off light in terms of injury - there was no injury past the raid itself. Her case is incomparable to all others listed because she succeeded in her objective - that being to stop the Horde and she was not wounded - no fel spike through the heart, no loss of the seat of power, no being sent back to the Twisting Nether/Elemental plane to recover. Try to apply the same standard - the raid group simply leaving to any of those other encounters and compare the result. There'd still be a true Horde and a Heart of Y'shaarj, Kael would still have the unlimited power of Tempest Keep, N'zoth would not be free nor would Azshara be his prisoner, Ragnaros would still have Molten Core as his seat and rule over the Dark Iron directly, etc. etc.

[Aucald]

The harm she suffered was nonexistent. Again - suppose that she and the raid group all went home immediately after Blockade. Absolutely no aspect of the plot would change one iota. She's already 'recovered' in the meeting she has immediately after the raid. She didn't get off light in terms of injury - there was no injury past the raid itself. Her case is incomparable to all others listed because she succeeded in her objective - that being to stop the Horde and she was not wounded - no fel spike through the heart, no loss of the seat of power, no being sent back to the Twisting Nether/Elemental plane to recover. Try to apply the same standard - the raid group simply leaving to any of those other encounters and compare the result. There'd still be a true Horde and a Heart of Y'shaarj, Kael would still have the unlimited power of Tempest Keep, N'zoth would not be free nor would Azshara be his prisoner, Ragnaros would still have Molten Core as his seat and rule over the Dark Iron directly, etc. etc.

"Recovery" belies the claim was "nonexistent" - you can't recover from something that didn't occur, after all. We're not talking about the plot of the Battle of Dazar'alor or the relative merits of additional drama, either; so that's equally immaterial. The standard is "harmed, but alive," met by all the examples in the original list. Trying to write off Jaina's injuries as immaterial because they're not severe enough to matter is an objective example of what moving the goalposts actually is: "she wasn't injured enough for it to count by an arbitrary criteria I don't want to get into." Garrosh wasn't visibly injured at the end of SoO, either; I mean he's fallen and he can't get up but he's visibly fine - just a bit tired from the ordeal is all, if you want to indulge in a bit of hyperbolic sarcasm. We have no idea how harmed Helya was, as she just disappears from the scene of the battle - she's known to be "recovering" as well, so by your standard above I'd assume her harm was also nonexistent (putting her in the ranks with Jaina as well).

[Super Dickmann]

"Recovery" belies the claim was "nonexistent" - you can't recover from something that didn't occur, after all. We're not talking about the plot of the Battle of Dazar'alor or the relative merits of additional drama, either; so that's equally immaterial. The standard is "harmed, but alive," met by all the examples in the original list. Trying to write off Jaina's injuries as immaterial because they're not severe enough to matter is an objective example of what moving the goalposts actually is: "she wasn't injured enough for it to count by an arbitrary criteria I don't want to get into." Garrosh wasn't visibly injured at the end of SoO, either; I mean he's fallen and he can't get up but he's visibly fine - just a bit tired from the ordeal is all, if you want to indulge in a bit of hyperbolic sarcasm. We have no idea how harmed Helya was, as she just disappears from the scene of the battle - she's known to be "recovering" as well, so by your standard above I'd assume her harm was also nonexistent (putting her in the ranks with Jaina as well).

I explain my criteria pretty explicitly - had the boss fight not taken place, would literally anything have changed. All other end bosses, hell, bosses in general, either had their plans foiled or suffered harm that changed their condition. Garrosh lost the Heart of Y'shaarj and his army. Kael had to be revived and lost Tempest Keep. Sure, all he gets personally is a few bruises and some ditched shoulderpads, but our victory had a pronounced effect. Azshara was beaten down and crawling on the ground, and she had freed N'zoth - she went from being free and a queen to being a cpative of N'zoth. Helya was considered dead enough that Odyn was freed and then materialized, in all those cases something occurred as a result of the defeat - it had consequence. Jaina's encounter is meaningless, it not taking place is identical to it happening. Her recovery occurs entirely off-screen and is resolved literally the very next time we see her after the raid encounter.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Except for the part where we didn't. Jaina's own quest text in that ToT quest says she was acting on a rumor. That rumor was explicitly false and we've known it to be false for ages. We've also seen Wrathion being the one to actually get something from Thunder King in that exact same patch. Meanwhile Sylvanas got power from a soul engine that also serves as a power source to something akin to a god. And she used it to get more varied magical arrows, which she used prior to it as well, as well as dark death-related magic which she also used previously as well. Congrats, yet again every single thing you said here is wrong.

I didn’t even mention lei Shen, we use the staff to drain what’s left of the power of the throne with even the item text changing to reflect that.

As for sylvanas the soul engine happens off screen the deal with the warden happens off screen she gains the ability to fly with her body and kill people with her banshee fairy dust off screen.

But sure if you ignore what I actual write and make up something on your own then in the land of fairy’s and gumdrops I’m wrong.

[Aucald]

I explain my criteria pretty explicitly - had the boss fight not taken place, would literally anything have changed. All other end bosses, hell, bosses in general, either had their plans foiled or suffered harm that changed their condition. Garrosh lost the Heart of Y'shaarj and his army. Kael had to be revived and lost Tempest Keep. Sure, all he gets personally is a few bruises and some ditched shoulderpads, but our victory had a pronounced effect. Azshara was beaten down and crawling on the ground, and she had freed N'zoth - she went from being free and a queen to being a cpative of N'zoth. Helya was considered dead enough that Odyn was freed and then materialized, in all those cases something occurred as a result of the defeat - it had consequence. Jaina's encounter is meaningless, it not taking place is identical to it happening. Her recovery occurs entirely off-screen and is resolved literally the very next time we see her after the raid encounter.

That criteria is fine for what it is - in this case, what it is being immaterial to the previous discussion or claim. The claim wasn't about succeeding despite being defeating in the raid, or being interchangeable insofar as the story went, it was about whether or not they were harmed and/or survived their raid encounter. As for your example, you could even claim that Garrosh's defeat in SoO was merely a stepping stone to a more ambitious gambit in WoD, as it led to his escape from Pandaria and the recruitment of an even bigger army in the form of the Iron Horde to carry on his campaign of conquest. Similar too is Azshara, who is ultimately freed from durance in Ny'alotha and gets away with a Karma Houdini by disappearing after handing over the Xal'atath blade and is free to continue whatever plotting she's up to unhindered by the assembled heroes. You could argue Azshara leaves Ny'alotha in an even better condition than she had previously, as N'Zoth is defeated (removing a debtor in her case) and she's likely lost none of her prestige or authority over the Naga as a whole. Odyn being freed due to Helya's defeat is also a pretty minor consequence, on the scale you've established here I'd rate it on the same basic level as you rate the significance of Jaina's injuries due to the Battle of Dazar'alor - said recovery also happening entirely off-screen as well.

[Combatbutler]

I didn’t even mention lei Shen, we use the staff to drain what’s left of the power of the throne with even the item text changing to reflect that.

As for sylvanas the soul engine happens off screen the deal with the warden happens off screen she gains the ability to fly with her body and kill people with her banshee fairy dust off screen.

But sure if you ignore what I actual write and make up something on your own then in the land of fairy’s and gumdrops I’m wrong.

Jaina had the staff for ages and it did not give her a significant power-boost, prior to bfa, heck she had it and and was bitch slapped around to the point of dying in the warcrimes novel. Her power level are utterly inconsistent in this xpack alone, like any warcraft character really.


OT

Both of them are cancer, does that count?