if you have to call one of these characters, a mary sue, which one would it be??

[Aucald]

wait, here the problems is that jaina went against what is established for her (and wizard) abilities, not that she displayed "new" abilities. we passed from a jaina that was exausted from a single mass teleport (and she was already a powerfull teleporter), collecting all wod's time artifacts for a single powerful spell, the knowledge that mages stucks on leylines to have more mana, to a jaina that from nowhere teleport a fuckton giant boat , enhanching it with arcane cannons and levitating it with telekinesis, frozen an entire battlefield, instant conjure a telekinetic shield and casted another mass teleport.
oh, and remember that a titan possessed medivh, covered with powerfull artifacts and living rightly above a leyline was exausted only after a (gigafucktons) powerfull fireball.

There's no real established criteria for what a Mage is or isn't capable of in WoW, though; all the marquee Mage characters from Jaina to Khadgar to Rhonin have been able to use spells and abilities heretofore unseen as the plot requires - just by dint of having access to the right power source, prior knowledge, or experience(s). A lot of your examples are abstractions that are down to separation of gameplay and story, such as it taking time for Jaina to mass-teleport people away (a mechanic necessary for the RTS game and used again in the Hyjal raid in TBC). Jaina has also historically cast a fireball strong enough to knock a Scourge Necropolis out of the sky pre-WotLK (in the canon Wildstorm comics), Khadgar performed any number of insane feats (like leading the cast to teleport the entirety of Dalaran), combining all three classical Mage forms of energy into a single massive spell to destroy a metal dam and flood a Blackrock foundry, as well as the creation of an Artifact-tier ring for the PC using random relics from Draenor.

As for Medivh, he was pretty much constantly struggling against Sargeras' control since adolescence and almost always on the verge of exhaustion until he was more fully possessed by Sargeras before his death - and the spell he used on Arcanagos/Nightbane was made using a portion of his own very essence, the only to bypass the Arcane protection the blue dragon was using. That this might exhaust him is understandable given his already conflicted state, plus it turned Arcanagos into an undead wretch that persisted long after Medivh's death at the hands of Lothar and Khadgar.

[Aresk]

From which he didn't need any saving since as per Blizzard commentary he wasn't corrupted or anything of the sorts. Garrosh was in control in that regard.

Thanks for the reminder! I had completely forgotten that Blizzard had stated that Garrosh was free from corruption.

And with regards to the putting him in that position, I mostly mean by not killing him, we gave the opportunity for everything else to happen. Not that players have agency in that regard (and it was mostly Taran Zhu's fault for deciding to put him on trial in Pandaria).

[Grazrug]

Thanks for the reminder! I had completely forgotten that Blizzard had stated that Garrosh was free from corruption.

And with regards to the putting him in that position, I mostly mean by not killing him, we gave the opportunity for everything else to happen. Not that players have agency in that regard (and it was mostly Taran Zhu's fault for deciding to put him on trial in Pandaria).

Actually it was mostly the fault of Wrathion, Kairoz and that goblin merchant. Don't shift the direct blame around.

[Aresk]

Actually it was mostly the fault of Wrathion, Kairoz and that goblin merchant. Don't shift the direct blame around.

Except with exception of Kairoz taking him to alternate Draenor, none of that really mattered. He was put on trial where the verdict was already decided before testimony was given: mercy. As soon as Garrosh was taken to Pandaria, his crimes were forgiven by the judges. Wrathion and Kairoz and the rest who freed Garrosh are guilty of attacking the trial, but given the trial was a sham, it was the one who decided to put him through the kangaroo court that prevented the Horde or Alliance from accomplishing their goals.

[Cyram]

This posts shows you people really don't understand the term "Mary Sue".

Anduin is a Mary Sue - he has the best, most holiest and pure power and everything just works out in his favor.

Thrall was a Mary Sue during Cataclysm.

Jaina isn't a Mary Sue. Sylvanas isn't a Mary Sue - her entire plan kinda worked out because of dumb luck.

[Kwento]

Neither.
I wish I could say it about both, but I just cannot. Both have reasons for the power they have (should they have that power or not, even if it hurts the narrative, doesn’t matter).

[TheRevenantHero]

Jaina hands down. She used to be an interesting character but she hasn't been such since like....Cataclysm. She's a boring, terribly written Mary Sue. Sylvanas is pretty fucking bad at this point but I think Jaina is actually worse.

- - - Updated - - -

This posts shows you people really don't understand the term "Mary Sue".

Anduin is a Mary Sue - he has the best, most holiest and pure power and everything just works out in his favor.

Thrall was a Mary Sue during Cataclysm.

Jaina isn't a Mary Sue. Sylvanas isn't a Mary Sue - her entire plan kinda worked out because of dumb luck.

Jaina can kill Gorak Tul with little effort. She can summon the entire Kul Tiran fleet. She can make massive galleons fucking fly. She can conjure up a tidal wave large enough to obliterate Orgrimmar. She is all powerful somehow as a human. She also is never considered to have ever really done anything wrong ever. She fucking went on a killing spree of blood elves and the the Alliance just shrugged, despite innocent people getting slaughtered. So saying she isn't a Mary Sue means YOU don't know what one is.

[omeomorfismo]

There's no real established criteria for what a Mage is or isn't capable of in WoW, though; all the marquee Mage characters from Jaina to Khadgar to Rhonin have been able to use spells and abilities heretofore unseen as the plot requires - just by dint of having access to the right power source, prior knowledge, or experience(s). A lot of your examples are abstractions that are down to separation of gameplay and story, such as it taking time for Jaina to mass-teleport people away (a mechanic necessary for the RTS game and used again in the Hyjal raid in TBC). Jaina has also historically cast a fireball strong enough to knock a Scourge Necropolis out of the sky pre-WotLK (in the canon Wildstorm comics), Khadgar performed any number of insane feats (like leading the cast to teleport the entirety of Dalaran), combining all three classical Mage forms of energy into a single massive spell to destroy a metal dam and flood a Blackrock foundry, as well as the creation of an Artifact-tier ring for the PC using random relics from Draenor.

As for Medivh, he was pretty much constantly struggling against Sargeras' control since adolescence and almost always on the verge of exhaustion until he was more fully possessed by Sargeras before his death - and the spell he used on Arcanagos/Nightbane was made using a portion of his own very essence, the only to bypass the Arcane protection the blue dragon was using. That this might exhaust him is understandable given his already conflicted state, plus it turned Arcanagos into an undead wretch that persisted long after Medivh's death at the hands of Lothar and Khadgar.

i never say anything about the time to cast teleport, my point was that jaina continued endlessly to do amazing feats requiring lore-wise tons of mana one after another without any logic. she hasnt sources of power on her and she didnt come from a ley-line, then yes, maybe im using too much logic for the magic in this game, but if jaina can spam these feats why in first place helves with their powerful magisters had to made the sunwell? why an entire mageocracy full of archmages and magisters had to build dalaran on a ley line? why even conjure the guardian or train 100 mages to cast a mass flamestrike, damn how antonidas didnt spam nuked the scourge?... its incosistency in its purest form

[Soon-TM]

Anduin is a Mary Sue - he has the best, most holiest and pure power and everything just works out in his favor.

Correct.

Thrall was a Mary Sue during Cataclysm.

Correct.

Jaina isn't a Mary Sue. Sylvanas isn't a Mary Sue - her entire plan kinda worked out because of dumb luck.

As others have pointed before, Sylvanas fits quite neatly the Villain Sue trope. As for Jaina, it's hard to say - she's actually gone through a lot of !@$%, and her unwise/rash decisions have already had actual impact on her (her father getting killed and later her getting imprisoned, Theramore being nuked into oblivion, her being somewhat "kicked" out of the Kirin Tor council). But at the same time, she does have several of Sue-ish traits, as @TheRevenantHero correctly points out.

You're objectively wrong here. Sylvanas simply possesses more mary sue traits than jaina

This is also correct.

[Soon-TM]

its incosistency in its purest form

It's called ROOL F KEWL, silly But you're actually right.

Anduin isn't a mary sue, he clearly has failed in the past, doesn't know everything, isn't liked by everyone and isn't better at anyone else than anything really

Idk, teh golden boi does sure look like a Purity Sue. Especially this bit:

keep in mind that Purity Sue pretty much exists to be loved by everybody for being (as the plot tries to suggest) "perfect" (or close enough) in every way that matters. If it's less about the character's actions and more just about everybody's fascination with the character, it belongs here.

Right now, the only one who isn't kissing teh boi's ass is lolevil Sylvanas - which is a classic Mary Sue trait, aka people disliking him/her being portrayed in a very negative light. Tyrande? She just spewed a few angry words and gtfo'd, while e.g. Maiev or Shandris are completely a-ok with Anduin.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Jaina can kill Gorak Tul with little effort. She can summon the entire Kul Tiran fleet. She can make massive galleons fucking fly. She can conjure up a tidal wave large enough to obliterate Orgrimmar. She is all powerful somehow as a human. She also is never considered to have ever really done anything wrong ever. She fucking went on a killing spree of blood elves and the the Alliance just shrugged, despite innocent people getting slaughtered. So saying she isn't a Mary Sue means YOU don't know what one is.

Jiana uses the focusing iris to make the tidal wave it’s not something she can do on her own and she never went around slaughtering blood elf blizzard has said she only killed those who fought back and other wise teleported all others away.

[namecraft]

if I were mary sue would that be a bad thing?

[omeomorfismo]

Jiana uses the focusing iris to make the tidal wave it’s not something she can do on her own and she never went around slaughtering blood elf blizzard has said she only killed those who fought back and other wise teleported all others away.

source?
i only find things about aethas' role and darnassus part. nothing about jaina

[Aucald]

i never say anything about the time to cast teleport, my point was that jaina continued endlessly to do amazing feats requiring lore-wise tons of mana one after another without any logic. she hasnt sources of power on her and she didnt come from a ley-line, then yes, maybe im using too much logic for the magic in this game, but if jaina can spam these feats why in first place helves with their powerful magisters had to made the sunwell? why an entire mageocracy full of archmages and magisters had to build dalaran on a ley line? why even conjure the guardian or train 100 mages to cast a mass flamestrike, damn how antonidas didnt spam nuked the scourge?... its incosistency in its purest form

I can't argue that it's not inconsistent, but that's because *all* such things in WoW are inconsistent - from feats of strength by melee type NPC's to Thrall's amazing Shamanism to various feats of magic. Gul'dan uses his own magic to raise an entire island chain from the bottom of the sea, after all, without any assistance from a known power source, relic, or artifact to aid him. Jaina does have access to powerful implements like the Staff of Antonidas, but she's very well capable of amazing feats never seen before without it, as well. But the same is true of Khadgar and Rhonin. Jaina is also recognized in-universe as one of the finest Mages currently alive, so even within the fictional narrative of the Warcraft universe she's a recognized prodigy capable of great feats.

Both the Sunwell and Dalaran (or Karazhan) being built on Ley line nexuses isn't about amplitude as much as it is availability - Silvermoon and Dalaran pretty much ran on magic, suffusing everything in the city itself. It powers automated enchantments like Silvermoon's animated brooms and makes spellcraft in the general sense easier. The ability to channel mana in terms of amplitude is more a personal thing, perhaps a matter of willpower to some degree, but availability and ease of access is more related to the relative proximity of a power source. That being said the Guardian is on a tier above any given individual Mage, including Jaina herself - there would probably be no contest between Jaina vs. an invested Guardian, with the Guardian winning hands down in almost every case.

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source?
i only find things about aethas' role and darnassus part. nothing about jaina

You can find several videos showing Jaina oft-discussing walk about Dalaran dealing with the Sunreavers. Most of them she teleports away, to the Violet Hold, but some will begin attacking you or her and they're often killed directly by her or her conjured elemental. The video below details Jaina both killing and teleporting Displaced Sunreaver NPC's:



I'd she teleports the majority of them, with you and Vereesa actually being the ones to kill high-value Sunreaver targets in specific quests (including feeding one of them to a shark for some bizarre reason), but any sign of aggression and Jaina does indeed kill them swiftly.

[Eazy]

Neither of them.
Mary Sue is a specific title for someone who has special traits, like Rey from the Star Wars. But Jaina or Sylvanas? They're for sure not one.

It's like saying

If you have to call one of these cars BMW, which one would it be?


It's pointless.

[Mehrunes]

As others have pointed before, Sylvanas fits quite neatly the Villain Sue trope.

How?

Jiana uses the focusing iris to make the tidal wave it’s not something she can do on her own and she never went around slaughtering blood elf blizzard has said she only killed those who fought back and other wise teleported all others away.

Aethas' guards apparently killed themselves.

Fair point - I think that's a niche that has to filled though, even then - we have seen points where Anduin does commit or condone less than pure actions, but as for being a mary sue, he simply doesn't meet the criteria

- everything goes their way = he failed to stop the destruction of teldrassil, then failed to end the war at lordaeron
- they are stronger than everyone else = saurfang easily incapacitated him at lordaeron
- they don't get hurt like everyone else does = Garrosh nearly killed him in MoP
- Everyone likes and agrees with them = Tyrande clearly isn't a fan on Anduin right now, and Genn disobeyed him in Legion

Less than pure according to whom in-story? Because he has purity detection system in his bones. If Anduin was to do something impure as far as the story is concerned we'd learn about it because he'd moan about his bone ache.

Also:
- Anduin even surviving Lordaeron thanks to his fifty layers of plot armor was an achievement;
- Saurfang immediately surrendered at Lordaeron after a chat, with no fighting, let alone him incapacitating anyone;
- Anduin got super powers out of his bout with Garrosh;
- Tyrande is a sole exception and is painted as blatantly wrong over her decision even by her adoptive daughter.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

source?
i only find things about aethas' role and darnassus part. nothing about jaina

I believe it was in a QA answer compile that I’m pretty sure I’ve seen linked on here before but I don’t actually know how to find them and have failed to just now so you can treat it as speculation.

[Mehrunes]

source?
i only find things about aethas' role and darnassus part. nothing about jaina

There was a Twitter post or maybe a Reddit comment from Blizzard. Mind you that refers only to Jaina walking around the city and sometimes killing people instead of teleporting them. So it does not apply to Aethas' guards. Whom she killed before she even made any demands to Aethas, let alone started the purge after he refused.

It's like saying

If you have to call one of these cars BMW, which one would it be?


It's pointless.

The Audi is closer to the camera, reflecting how BMW drivers are stereotypically prone to tailgating, making the Audi an obvious answer.

[tankbug]

Neither, Jaina was BfA's best written character ...

Did you misspell Saurfang?

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Aethas' guards apparently killed themselves.

I wouldn’t count people drawing weapons on a member of the council of six while defending a traitor as innocents being slaughtered but if you want to go ahead.