mmigration: No visas for low-skilled workers, government says

[Mayhem]

I'd be excited to hear what magical enchantments exist on the UK labour market that make the lowering of the supply of labour NOT improve the wages of Labourers.

Minimum wage laws might have more to do with the wages than the supply of labour but just stick to your boogeyman of more people equal fewer wages because it's simpler maths, therefore, it's truer.

[Draco-Onis]

As I previously posted. A labor shortage can be solved ONLY one way- with cash.

proof that you aren't even reading what I am typing.

As for penalties for hiring illegal labour? That is functionally and rhetorically impossible to do. We can't even get these people to pay taxes, let alone police under the table and the various legal schemes here.

People break laws so don't make laws? I don't see any flaw in this logic.

Shortages you describe are as I describe, an unwillingness to pay labour,

You are not reading just ranting we have shortages in labor due to a number of reasons like one example I gave doctors and nurses.

More rants

So again you don't need me just going to keep talking to yourself you basically sound like a college student who just found out about the military industrial complex or something /sigh

[Machismo]

Lassiez faire economics don't work. Trying to implement them always ends in disaster; see also the Great Depression and the Great Recession. Turns out that when 'government gets out of the way', corporations will do what generates the most short term profits even at the cost of long-term stability.

Except what we had was corporatism, and that's something I oppose. Bernie supporters are closer to being corporatists than I could ever be.

Supporting the free movement of labor and capital is a great thing.

[d00mGuArD]

As I have already stated and provided examples of such rising wages aren't a magical item that cures every problem there is a cap on wages just like everything else. Apparently you don't believe that labor shortages can happen even though we have so many examples of that even in the US for seasonal and hard labor jobs.

I am 100% certain shortages will happen. They must happen so that they will cause things to get better. Shortages is what is wanted in this case. That is how workers get stronger. If there are 100million workers waiting to replace you, you don't have any bargaining power at all.
It may take a few years of shortages but things will sort out. To the benefit of the workers.
It is basic supply and demand. You just ignore the elasticity and you think things will happen fast. It will take many many years!

- - - Updated - - -

why not vote for a higher minimum wage?

there is no such vote. like what? a referendum? I 100% support that there should be some sort of mini-referendums for every important matter like the Swiss are doing. Extra bonus that it would take power away from the rich and the lobbies!

[I Push Buttons]

I do love how this entire argument can be sidestepped with the simple solution of just making the Lords pay people more.

But they can't gin up cancerous nativism without immigrants to blame, so. guessilldie.jpg

'The lords' are already trying to automate and export abroad all the jobs they can even with minimum wage as low as it is.

All drastically increasing minimum wage will do is create more economic incentive for them to accelerate that process by devoting far more resources toward accomplishing it.

[Draco-Onis]

I am 100% certain shortages will happen. They must happen so that they will cause things to get better. Shortages is what is wanted in this case. That is how workers get stronger. If there are 100million workers waiting to replace you, you don't have any bargaining power at all.
It may take a few years of shortages but things will sort out. To the benefit of the workers.
It is basic supply and demand. You just ignore the elasticity and you think things will happen fast. It will take many many years!

If you go beyond economics 101 you will understand that labor markets are more complicated than supply and demand even supply and demand rules do not apply to all goods hence the concept of elasticity. There are not infinite amounts of trained workers or infinite amount of people available or willing to do the work there is also a cap where salary no longer affects the attractiveness of a profession and employer margins are too low for them to reach.

- - - Updated - - -

'The lords' are already trying to automate and export abroad all the jobs they can even with minimum wage as low as it is.

All drastically increasing minimum wage will do is create more economic incentive for them to accelerate that process by devoting far more resources toward accomplishing it.

False unless you think automating a process happens magically happens overnight, the drive to do so at a fast pace always exist because companies are driven by profit.

[I Push Buttons]

False unless you think automating a process happens magically happens overnight, the drive to do so at a fast pace always exist because companies are driven by profit.

I don't think its going to happen overnight, I think its going to take decades and my concern is with the future. When the time finally arrives, there will be tens of millions of unemployable people at the bottom of society, they will need to be provided for, probably through some form of UBI. So having open borders in all but names and inviting tens of millions of the world's poor into the country over those coming decades is entirely counter intuitive in planning for that eventuality.

And yeah, rising wages will increase the rate. Look at McDonald's, as an example... For decades did you ever hear much about their push to automate their restaurants? I don't know about you, but I didn't hear much of anything for my entire life. Fast forward to the last few years with all the push for a national $15/hour minimum wage, now I see stories every few months about how McDonald's trying to automate their entire front end, spending billions acquiring AI and tech startups to accelerate their automation, etc. As you say, they are driven by profit, paying millions (including franchise workers, McDonald's employs upwards of 2,000,000 people) several dollars more per hour, if not outright doubling their wage depending on where they work, makes automation far more economically viable. They probably already have some automation solutions ready to go, they are more expensive to implement at present than just continuing to pay people shit wages, thus they remain on the back burner.

[Mayhem]

Except what we had was corporatism, and that's something I oppose. Bernie supporters are closer to being corporatists than I could ever be.

Supporting the free movement of labor and capital is a great thing.

How do you expect corporatism from happening without rules when it's happening within rules?

[Draco-Onis]

I don't think its going to happen overnight, I think its going to take decades and my concern is with the future. When the time finally arrives, there will be tens of millions of unemployable people at the bottom of society, they will need to be provided for, probably through some form of UBI. So having open borders in all but names and inviting tens of millions of the world's poor into the country over those coming decades is entirely counter intuitive in planning for that eventuality.

And yeah, rising wages will increase the rate. Look at McDonald's, as an example... For decades did you ever hear much about their push to automate their restaurants? I don't know about you, but I didn't hear much of anything for my entire life. Fast forward to the last few years with all the push for a national $15/hour minimum wage, now I see stories every few months about how McDonald's trying to automate their entire front end, spending billions acquiring AI and tech startups to accelerate their automation, etc. As you say, they are driven by profit, paying millions (including franchise workers, McDonald's employs upwards of 2,000,000 people) several dollars more per hour, if not outright doubling their wage depending on where they work, makes automation far more economically viable. They probably already have some automation solutions ready to go, they are more expensive to implement at present than just continuing to pay people shit wages, thus they remain on the back burner.

I am not sure where you get this fiction that people want open borders most just want an immigration system that works.

As for McDonalds they timed that release for effect for PR, Do you think they just came up with that process overnight? they have been developing it for decades and kept it under wraps because it is bad for PR and they put it out at the right time. Even before the announcement McDonalds was testing kiosks, did they have a time machine too?

I think you are being gullible they were already doing it because fact labor can never be cheaper than automation overtime unless you plan to pay people $0.

[Daelak]

Yes and in an ideal economy, people refusing jobs due to low pay means the jobs go unfilled, the jobs presumably still need to be done though, which increases the demand for labor to fill the jobs, which increase the pay offered to fill those jobs until it reaches a point where people who once refused the jobs are actually willing to take the jobs for the pay offered.

That doesn't happen if you have an unending influx of poor migrants willing to take those jobs and work for peanuts. Such a circumstance drastically reduces the demand for labor and keeps wages low since there will always be someone willing to work for such low pay.

That process you summarize takes years and only if the job isn't absorbed by an existing job to make that employees life even harder. All under the assumption it will ever be filled even through a decade of it being unfilled. This is pie in the sky reasoning.

[I Push Buttons]

I am not sure where you get this fiction that people want open borders most just want an immigration system that works.

Because fringe leftists call for:

- No detention for illegal entry.
- No deportation for illegal entry.
- Amnesty and a path to citizenship for all who enter illegally.

If literally anyone can come here, remain here, and eventually become a citizen here, illegal or otherwise, how is that not an open border? The argument usually given in response is "Well we would deport convicted felons! So its not really an open border!"

I think you are being gullible they were already doing it because fact labor can never be cheaper than automation overtime unless you plan to pay people $0.

No doubt they have been working on it a while, but labor can definitely be cheaper than automation for a time... It doesn't matter if the automated system costs them $0 a year (it wouldn't, by the way) if at present it would cost them hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars per store to implement the system in the first place... It would take years, decades even depending on how many jobs it gets rid of to pay for itself... And in that time they might develop something even better/cheaper making that initial investment a huge sunk cost.

[Draco-Onis]

Because fringe leftists call for:

Not going to waste time defending fringe unless you want to talk about the views of the racists, Neo Nazis on your side. Libertarians also want open borders but the right seem to forget they exist for some reason.

No doubt they have been working on it a while, but labor can definitely be cheaper than automation for a time... It doesn't matter if the automated system costs them $0 a year (it wouldn't, by the way) if at present it would cost them hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars per store to implement the system in the first place... It would take years, decades even depending on how many jobs it gets rid of to pay for itself... And in that time they might develop something even better/cheaper making that initial investment a huge sunk cost.

I agree companies plan for the long term and McDonalds if you look beyond the PR and look at the company's expenses you know what they can't lie about it will tell you their spending didn't change much. All companies are driven to automation minimum wage doesn't speed up anything it's just a good time for companies to openly say they are being assholes.

[Daelak]

I don't think its going to happen overnight, I think its going to take decades and my concern is with the future. When the time finally arrives, there will be tens of millions of unemployable people at the bottom of society, they will need to be provided for, probably through some form of UBI. So having open borders in all but names and inviting tens of millions of the world's poor into the country over those coming decades is entirely counter intuitive in planning for that eventuality.

And yeah, rising wages will increase the rate. Look at McDonald's, as an example... For decades did you ever hear much about their push to automate their restaurants? I don't know about you, but I didn't hear much of anything for my entire life. Fast forward to the last few years with all the push for a national $15/hour minimum wage, now I see stories every few months about how McDonald's trying to automate their entire front end, spending billions acquiring AI and tech startups to accelerate their automation, etc. As you say, they are driven by profit, paying millions (including franchise workers, McDonald's employs upwards of 2,000,000 people) several dollars more per hour, if not outright doubling their wage depending on where they work, makes automation far more economically viable. They probably already have some automation solutions ready to go, they are more expensive to implement at present than just continuing to pay people shit wages, thus they remain on the back burner.

Free flow of migration and capital between North, Central, and South America would extinguish your labor glut fever dream. You are being conned by conservative arguments being masked as economic ones, when it has always been xenophobic and grounded in white supremacy.

[DKjaigen]

That process you summarize takes years and only if the job isn't absorbed by an existing job to make that employees life even harder. All under the assumption it will ever be filled even through a decade of it being unfilled. This is pie in the sky reasoning.

That is simply not true. We already seeing the positive effects of labour shortage in Britain.

https://www.theconstructionindex.co....-salaries-up-9

When you are difficult to replace your employers cannot make your live difficult otherwise you will just strike.

[Draco-Onis]

That is simply not true. We already seeing the positive effects of labour shortage in Britain.

https://www.theconstructionindex.co....-salaries-up-9

When you are difficult to replace your employers cannot make your live difficult otherwise you will just strike.

The article states vacancies still exist and shortages continue, what do you think happens to the market because of that? in the case of construction that means less houses which means higher cost of living for everyone. There is no such thing as a free lunch and wages cannot go up infinitely.

[DKjaigen]

Free flow of migration and capital between North, Central, and South America would extinguish your labor glut fever dream. You are being conned by conservative arguments being masked as economic ones, when it has always been xenophobic and grounded in white supremacy.

And this is the reason why so many people will vote for Trump again 2020. The working class is suffering under current Globalist economy and instead of taking the problem seriously you label them xenophobe for idealogical reasons. This is the reason why the current left wing party and their utterly worthless ideas needs to be trampled into the dust and humiliated.

[I Push Buttons]

Not going to waste time defending fringe unless you want to talk about the views of the racists, Neo Nazis on your side.

'My side'... There you go again.

And my mistake, its not even 'fringe leftists' who embrace those positions... Both Sanders and Warren overtly call for all of those things I listed, Buttigieg seemingly joins them in calling for a path to citizenship for all illegal immigrants in the country and a 'humane approach to immigration enforcement that more effectively meets our public safety needs', IE: only detain/deport criminals (I say 'seemingly joins them' with regard to this part, since the language used doesn't overtly say what his plan is).

Libertarians also want open borders but the right seem to forget they exist for some reason.

Yes, I ignore retarded arguments from people like Machismo, who's ideal America is basically billions of people migrating to the US, all of them living in squalor, fighting for $.01/hour jobs, and dying in the streets because the welfare state will be abolished in his libertarian utopia.

[DKjaigen]

The article states vacancies still exist and shortages continue, what do you think happens to the market because of that? in the case of construction that means less houses which means higher cost of living for everyone. There is no such thing as a free lunch and wages cannot go up infinitely.

Good let them build a backlog when the recession hits. This forces companies to keep their construction workers instead of throwing them away when it suits them.

[Draco-Onis]

Good let them build a backlog when the recession hits. This forces companies to keep their construction workers instead of throwing them away when it suits them.

First since there was already a shortage why would they throw them away? second you do know the reason they get thrown away in recessions is because companies are going out of business right? third you think recessions are good for those workers?

- - - Updated - - -

'My side'... There you go again.

And my mistake, its not even 'fringe leftists' who embrace those positions... Both Sanders and Warren overtly call for all of those things I listed, Buttigieg seemingly joins them in calling for a path to citizenship for all illegal immigrants in the country and a 'humane approach to immigration enforcement that more effectively meets our public safety needs', IE: only detain/deport criminals (I say 'seemingly joins them' with regard to this part, since the language used doesn't overtly say what his plan is).

Non right wing nut job citation please no candidate to my knowledge has called for open borders.

[Dezerte]

While I think it would be a good thing if this pressured wages to become more competitive, the other side (and problem) of the coin is the actual labor shortage itself. So perhaps wages will rise, but also perhaps the economy will stagnate and/or shrink.