Mega-Thread: Democratic 2020 Primaries

[NineSpine]

Do you think they are doing it for fun? Can you at least admit that some of the Bernie Bros are out of their fucking mind? Refusing to vote for any other (D) nominee? Other candidates have their insane followers. Are you surprised that Bernie has them as well?

The reason those people won't vote for a different nominee is that those nominees are garbage and have literally said they won't do a damn thing for those voters. Don't be shocked when "I can't do shit for you, I won't do shit for you, and fuck you for even asking" doesn't rally people to your side.

[cubby]

No. I literally said that like two posts ago.

Stop pretending you can't read.

Bah - crap, sorry I missed it. My bad.

[cubby]

The reason those people won't vote for a different nominee is that those nominees are garbage and have literally said they won't do a damn thing for those voters. Don't be shocked when "I can't do shit for you, I won't do shit for you, and fuck you for even asking" doesn't rally people to your side.

You're making my point for me. I can't believe you don't see the hypocrisy in you statement above.

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Possibly, but I think the cause of that is more that Bernie is able to mobilize voters who would otherwise never ever have bothered to vote because they regard the Democratic Party as just as corporately corrupt as the Republican Party. The fact that the USA needed to reach the year 2020 to finally have a social-democrat as an electable option is a sad story in itself. Social-democracy is such a strong ideology in the West that the USA election system has been effectively been alienating perhaps 25%-33% of it's potential voterbase.

Sanders' grassroots movement and mobilization is amazing. But if people can't take the big picture view and realize that getting Sanders elected isn't as important as defeating Trump, then we've lost before we've even begun.

[NineSpine]

You're making my point for me. I can't believe you don't see the hypocrisy in you statement above.

I'm not making a case for them. I'm going to vote for any Democratic nominee except Bloomberg. I'm simply explaining the reality of the situation to you. You need to inspire people to vote for you, not guilt them into voting for you.

[Thepersona]

Speaking of Israel, Bernie has already answered that question

[Hobb]

Well we'll know in seven days who really is the front runner. If it's still Sanders or someone else.

[NineSpine]

Sanders' grassroots movement and mobilization is amazing. But if people can't take the big picture view and realize that getting Sanders elected isn't as important as defeating Trump, then we've lost before we've even begun.

These aren't qualities that are exclusive to Sanders. Any of these other candidates could have a movement and mobilization. They choose not to by instead embracing bad policies and insulting their potential voters.

[cubby]

I'm not making a case for them. I'm going to vote for any Democratic nominee except Bloomberg. I'm simply explaining the reality of the situation to you. You need to inspire people to vote for you, not guilt them into voting for you.

And then if the candidate that doesn't inspire YOU gets the nod, they need to vote for that candidate. That is the point that isn't getting through, and where the hypocrisy is generated.

[NineSpine]

Well we'll know in seven days who really is the front runner. If it's still Sanders or someone else.

If Sanders wins SC its over.

[derpkitteh]

Do you think they are doing it for fun? Can you at least admit that some of the Bernie Bros are out of their fucking mind? Refusing to vote for any other (D) nominee? Other candidates have their insane followers. Are you surprised that Bernie has them as well?

they're not, because it's an election and you got plenty right to vote or not vote at your leisure.

[NineSpine]

And then if the candidate that doesn't inspire YOU gets the nod, they need to vote for that candidate. That is the point that isn't getting through, and where the hypocrisy is generated.

Your moral opinion of the situation is irrelevant, as is mine. The fact is that the other candidates have chosen a path of insulting, belittling and shaming voters, none of which is going to drive those voters to vote, no matter what your moral opinion of that is.

[Skroe]

Do you think they are doing it for fun? Can you at least admit that some of the Bernie Bros are out of their fucking mind? Refusing to vote for any other (D) nominee? Other candidates have their insane followers. Are you surprised that Bernie has them as well?

Personally I'm just looking forward to one of the two following futures. And one of them _will_ happen.

(Future A) - Bernie Sanders wins the election, encounters the overwhelming majority of House and Senate Democrats who don't care for his agenda and Mitch McConnell's party of No. Signs 4x $800 billion defense bills, and no medicare for all, which can't pass the House and doesn't come up for a vote in the Senate. Loses the House in 2022. Stuck engaging in very modest tinkering of Obamacare. So much for the Revolution. News reports of "betrayed Bernie supporters" 18 months in.

(Future B) - Bernie Sanders loses the election and the House Majority gets wiped out. Arizona is held by Republicans in the Senate. Trump gets a second term. Bernie Bros refuse to recognize and accept their leading part in that catastrophe. Refuse to accept they didn't calibrate their message for the states needed to win. Refuse to accept they didn't build a broad coalition. And refuse to accept maybe... just maybe... Americans aren't down with the whole "Social Democracy" thing. They'll have lost cataclysmically, but it won't be what they believe at fault, or the way they went about the campaign. It'll be the moderate Democrats fault. Or NeverTrump. Or the "Mainstream Media". Or Russia. Or anybody but themselves.


There is no way this ends well for them. They either lose in power or they lose out of power.

[cubby]

Well we'll know in seven days who really is the front runner. If it's still Sanders or someone else.

Super Tuesday will definitely point to the top contender, if not make it abundantly clear - either someone is on top, or we'll have a contested primary.

[NineSpine]

Personally I'm just looking forward to one of the two following futures. And one of them _will_ happen.

(Future A) - Bernie Sanders wins the election, encounters the overwhelming majority of House and Senate Democrats who don't care for his agenda and Mitch McConnell's party of No. Signs 4x $800 billion defense bills, and no medicare for all, which can't pass the House and doesn't come up for a vote in the Senate. Loses the House in 2022. Stuck engaging in very modest tinkering of Obamacare. So much for the Revolution. News reports of "betrayed Bernie supporters" 18 months in.

(Future B) - Bernie Sanders loses the election and the House Majority gets wiped out. Arizona is held by Republicans in the Senate. Trump gets a second term. Bernie Bros refuse to recognize and accept their leading part in that catastrophe. Refuse to accept they didn't calibrate their message for the states needed to win. Refuse to accept they didn't build a broad coalition. And refuse to accept maybe... just maybe... Americans aren't down with the whole "Social Democracy" thing. They'll have lost cataclysmically, but it won't be what they believe at fault, or the way they went about the campaign. It'll be the moderate Democrats fault. Or NeverTrump. Or the "Mainstream Media". Or Russia. Or anybody but themselves.

There is no way this ends well for them. They either lose in power or they lose out of power.

You are underestimating a few things:

1. How much Sanders can do with executive orders. He can literally wipe out all federal student loan debt on day one by himself.

2. How much a president can strongarm his party.

3. What a president who actually attempts to use mass mobilization can accomplish.

Bottom line is that your assumption is that Sanders can't change anything, that as President he has no political power. It's an absurd argument.

[Draco-Onis]

Personally I'm just looking forward to one of the two following futures. And one of them _will_ happen.

(Future A) - Bernie Sanders wins the election, encounters the overwhelming majority of House and Senate Democrats who don't care for his agenda and Mitch McConnell's party of No. Signs 4x $800 billion defense bills, and no medicare for all, which can't pass the House and doesn't come up for a vote in the Senate. Loses the House in 2022. Stuck engaging in very modest tinkering of Obamacare. So much for the Revolution. News reports of "betrayed Bernie supporters" 18 months in.

(Future B) - Bernie Sanders loses the election and the House Majority gets wiped out. Arizona is held by Republicans in the Senate. Trump gets a second term. Bernie Bros refuse to recognize and accept their leading part in that catastrophe. Refuse to accept they didn't calibrate their message for the states needed to win. Refuse to accept they didn't build a broad coalition. And refuse to accept maybe... just maybe... Americans aren't down with the whole "Social Democracy" thing. They'll have lost cataclysmically, but it won't be what they believe at fault, or the way they went about the campaign. It'll be the moderate Democrats fault. Or NeverTrump. Or the "Mainstream Media". Or Russia. Or anybody but themselves.


There is no way this ends well for them. They either lose in power or they lose out of power.

How about this?

C) Bernie Sanders wins the election in spite of all the teeth gnashing and democrats wins a majority in both houses of congress giving him a tremendous deal of political capital. I am not sure why you didn't put that future in there since we've lived through a version of it with Trump.

[NineSpine]

How about this?

C) Bernie Sanders wins the election in spite of all the teeth gnashing and democrats wins a majority in both houses of congress giving him a tremendous deal of political capital. I am not sure why you didn't put that future in there since we've lived through a version of it with Trump.

Trump turned a party that hated him into his own personal cult and this guy he is here telling us presidents have no power to change political reality.

[Skroe]

Bernie's brand is authenticity. You are asking him to sacrifice that out of a fear of bad soundbites, when in reality sacrificing his brand would be far more damaging. This cowering, panicked state of fear that democrats are constantly in has led to nothing but failure, time and time again. The democratic party has spent thirty years chasing a mythical centrist through the power of being terrified of offending people. It's nonsense. It has never worked and it will never work. It's bad politics, and it always has been, and its a strategy with decades of failure behind it.

Well then I salute you all as you authetically go down with the ship.

My bad, I thought we were trying to win an election here, not engage in honorable combat.

It comes down to this. Do you want to win Florida or not? Do you want to win Wisconsin or not? Do you want to win Pennsylvania or not?

You then say or do the things *ACKSUWALLY* required to win there, or you lose there, and you lose the election. No one has any time for your principled stand when it comes to winning elections.

And those "mythical centrists"? It's how Obama won those states in 2008 and 2012. And Florida is a lot harder to win in 2020 than it is in 2008 because there are more old white people there, by a lot, not less (see what I posted this morning).

So I ask you, do you want to win these states - and the election - nor not. Because the Bernie Sanders on display this weekend doesn't win swing states. He only wins places Democrats are going to win anyway.

And your so called political revolution will be over before it starts because of that. Because the only thing that matters it the electoral college votes of swing states, and not the enthusiasm and support of liberals in Brooklyn.

[Milchshake]

Also I was quite deliberate in my use of 'support', versus 'vote for'.

One entails a political reach around, the other is just NSA, to put it crudely.

Meh, Bernie has already demonstrated what kind of leader he is over 5 years. Pretending he will change is like people saying that congress and judges will teach Trump how to act more presidential.

I mean when the DNC gave Bernie concessions for the Unity council. He sends bomb throwers that pushed for more caucuses.

Or when he pushed for Ellison to be DNC chair, and got deputy chair instead. For people not paying attention to Ellison recently. He's making Perez look awesome.

Bernie's PAC and now extinct Sanders Foundation have pretty shady leadership.

These are people that Bernie gets to pick. His picks make him look Trumpian. He prefer loyalist hacks instead of policy and organizational experts.

Look at his loyalists on this thread, or moreso over the past 5 years. They've personalized their victimhood at the hands of the DNC to such aburd levels. There's no reasoning with them.

Looking forward to news of Bernie Campaign and their 500+ FEC violations. Thats alot! Not reporting waay too many excessive donations.

It's just willfully bad management at this point.

[Draco-Onis]

Well then I salute you all as you authetically go down with the ship.

My bad, I thought we were trying to win an election here, not engage in honorable combat.

It comes down to this. Do you want to win Florida or not? Do you want to win Wisconsin or not? Do you want to win Pennsylvania or not?

You then say or do the things *ACKSUWALLY* required to win there, or you lose there, and you lose the election. No one has any time for your principled stand when it comes to winning elections.

And those "mythical centrists"? It's how Obama won those states in 2008 and 2012. And Florida is a lot harder to win in 2020 than it is in 2008 because there are more old white people there, by a lot, not less (see what I posted this morning).

So I ask you, do you want to win these states - and the election - nor not. Because the Bernie Sanders on display this weekend doesn't win swing states. He only wins places Democrats are going to win anyway.

And your so called political revolution will be over before it starts because of that. Because the only thing that matters it the electoral college votes of swing states, and not the enthusiasm and support of liberals in Brooklyn.

Oh Obama yes the guy who ran as a progressive not a centrist? or do you mean the guy who governed as a centrist and lead democrats to the biggest losses on the states and local level in generations? that Obama? I am sorry but America does not like centrism they give it lip service but we always go for radical changes the unhappier the electorate is the bigger the swing.

[NineSpine]

Well then I salute you all as you authetically go down with the ship.

My bad, I thought we were trying to win an election here, not engage in honorable combat.

It comes down to this. Do you want to win Florida or not? Do you want to win Wisconsin or not? Do you want to win Pennsylvania or not?

You then say or do the things *ACKSUWALLY* required to win there, or you lose there, and you lose the election. No one has any time for your principled stand when it comes to winning elections.

And those "mythical centrists"? It's how Obama won those states in 2008 and 2012. And Florida is a lot harder to win in 2020 than it is in 2008 because there are more old white people there, by a lot, not less (see what I posted this morning).

So I ask you, do you want to win these states - and the election - nor not. Because the Bernie Sanders on display this weekend doesn't win swing states. He only wins places Democrats are going to win anyway.

And your so called political revolution will be over before it starts because of that. Because the only thing that matters it the electoral college votes of swing states, and not the enthusiasm and support of liberals in Brooklyn.

Ok buddy, keep convincing yourself that the only way to win an election is to do what Hillary Clinton did. You guys are so fucking delusional it's unbelievable.