Do you believe in the supernatural/otherworldly/etc?

[PC2]

If I've never seen a ghost, my default state is to believe they don't exist.

Your default state should indeed be non-belief however the only good reason for that non-belief is that there's no explanation for ghosts. You shouldn't reject things you haven't 'seen' before because then you'll go through life being ignorant of a vast amount of true things and events. For example you have not seen Hydrogen being fused in the core of the sun, but because we have good reason to think that's how the sun generates so much heat we should still hold that position because it has good explanatory function.

I'm not going to assume without good cause that ghosts exist.

When you say "cause" do you mean "reason"? If so then yes that is exactly why you shouldn't make the assumption.

If I told you there was a teapot orbiting around Mars, would you believe me?

No because I do not currently have the explanation for how the teapot got there.

But why believe in such a thing when there's no reason for there to be a teapot in such a place?

Exactly, never believe something without the reason. There's zero reason to believe in ghosts and that is precisely why we shouldn't believe in them.

[Adamas102]

/snip

Well, as expected no answer. Just guesses. You throw around the word "likely" to back up all your claims, but you're pretty much just saying "I don't know, so I'm just going to guess". So without any knowledge of how our brains developed, we'll just assume there was an "awakening" that marks the point between when humans had imagination and when they didn't. And since then we've just been stagnant, apparently. Why NOT "one and done"? And don't fucking say "use your imagination". That's an absolutely ludicrous way to try to support a claim. I can imagine a great many wondrous, fantastical things, but why should YOU believe any of them?

So not only are you assuming that there will be another awakening, but you're also assuming that said awakening will apparently lead to a "terrifying" change in how we understand reality. Maybe you're right. Maybe the awakening will involve mankind transcending the idea of the supernatural and no longer being hamstrung by the idea that there MUST be more to this reality. Or maybe there won't be an awakening at all. Either way, this is hardly a good way to suggest that ghosts are real.

[Dhrizzle]

OK. Now they're suddenly also defined as immaterial, totally and utterly weightless and massless. How do people claim to see them? Sight requires light bouncing off material substances and hitting our eyes.

Would you look at that. I kept asking questions and suddenly you need to redefine ghosts yet again!

The human brain invents things all the time, it's entirely possible for you to "see" something in your field of vision that isn't actually reflecting or emitting photons into your eyes. It seems you've decided what you want the definition of ghosts to be and refuse to look at anything that isn't easily disprovable. I gave you a stripped down definition of what a ghost could be earlier - a manifestation of information being transferred from a deceased person to a living one.

[Ghostpanther]

I don't know, it is possible it could be shared psychosis or something like that too. If someone tells you about something and you forget your brain can fill in the blanks in a situation where it does not understand what is going on. we also know the body creates DMT in small amounts and there could be environmental factors that increase the production causing hallucinations without your knowledge.

My experience was environmental changes others felt with auditory and a feeling of dread/impending doom like when you almost die (I have almost died a few times so I know the feeling unfortunately). It was creepy that is for damn sure.

I do not think so, but I can not prove to you, you are wrong ether.

But I do agree the human mind is more perceptive and creative to the point our studies of it have not even scratched the truth of it all. Faith alone is a powerful force within all humans.

[Teleros]

I would ask why if ghosts are dead people that they behave in such strange ways. Why is grandma terrifying the kids and causing havoc to her family she loved?

Are you sure it's grandma & not something else?

Here's the problem with that.

If something is verified by evidence, then its nature can be determined by science and therefore the mysterious "supernatural" thing ceases to be supernatural and becomes merely "natural."

Not so, because you can have evidence that cannot be subjected to the scientific process. Courts consider such evidence all the time, as do philosophers and mathematicians.

If I've never seen a ghost, my default state is to believe they don't exist. I'm not going to assume without good cause that ghosts exist.

If I told you there was a teapot orbiting around Mars, would you believe me? Can you prove the teapot isn't there? No. But why believe in such a thing when there's no reason for there to be a teapot in such a place?

Teapots orbiting other planets are extraordinary in the literal since - they are out of the ordinary, and hence there should be solid evidence of such a thing existing before you believe in it. Similarly, if you come from a background, culture, or what-have-you in which supernatural encounters are rare to non-existent, then it's entirely sensible to be sceptical of such claims.

That said, I can prove the teapot isn't there, because we know enough about orbital mechanics and teapots to be able to rule it out. It cannot be orbiting too close to Mars or it'd have crashed, it cannot be orbiting too far or it wouldn't be in orbit. It cannot be too large or too small, because it would either collapse under its own gravity or be unable to store tea in it, etc etc etc.

Finally, as to the reason for the teapot being there or not, that's irrelevant as to whether it actually is there. Maybe one of the astronauts on the 2042 manned Mars missions decided to play an elaborate practical joke... who knows.

[deepr]

I can't, but I'd like to. I love the mystery that surrounds it.

[Fahrenheit]

Supernatural, as in ghosts, demons, angels, God, etc... Hellz no.

Otherworldly, yes, but nothing substantiated as of yet. Just knowing how many planets there are orbiting how many stars there are in how many galaxies there are, intelligent alien life exists. But, they're probably so far spread out and space travel isn't easy, so that for all intents and proposes we're alone.

[Unholyground]

I do not think so, but I can not prove to you, you are wrong ether.

But I do agree the human mind is more perceptive and creative to the point our studies of it have not even scratched the truth of it all. Faith alone is a powerful force within all humans.

The human brain looks for patterns in all things, I am pretty open minded so I don't rule out anything since brain science is still in it's infancy and too many things are not explainable by current methods. I just remain open to anything but I am always skeptical too.

[Powerogue]

I'm reminded of the Amazing Randi one million dollar challenge, a payout to anyone that could demonstrate paranormal abilities.
Of course, anyone that was the real deal would either not need such money, or would likely be fearful of public scrutiny.

His show was freaking hilarious, let me tell ya.



I think he eventually caved and decided that million dollars was better off donated to science education than sitting around waiting for something that was never going to happen.

Both of my grandmas passed during this challenge and would have certainly wanted their families to have a million dollars.

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That said, I can prove the teapot isn't there, because we know enough about orbital mechanics and teapots to be able to rule it out. It cannot be orbiting too close to Mars or it'd have crashed, it cannot be orbiting too far or it wouldn't be in orbit. It cannot be too large or too small, because it would either collapse under its own gravity or be unable to store tea in it, etc etc etc.

The teapot is actually made out of reinforced titanium and contains in it not tea, but the secret to the universe's most tasty biscuits to dip in tea, carved on the interior, and left there with careful precision in the orbit of Uranus by extraterrestrials.

As pointed out before, we could do that all day. The person claiming the teapot needs to present evidence.

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The human brain invents things all the time, it's entirely possible for you to "see" something in your field of vision that isn't actually reflecting or emitting photons into your eyes. It seems you've decided what you want the definition of ghosts to be and refuse to look at anything that isn't easily disprovable. I gave you a stripped down definition of what a ghost could be earlier - a manifestation of information being transferred from a deceased person to a living one.

Now that's a very different definition. But to go back to the beginning, what are our predictions based on that which are falsifiable? I can't think of any. I would think you'd need to demonstrate ghosts first before making it to "they can use telekenesis to beam information directly into our brains." I don't know how we'd separate it from a sudden burst of insight or delusions based off of someone's memory of a person.

[Moadar]

Are you sure it's grandma & not something else?


s.

That's my point exactly. Majority of supposed encounters dont behave in any way like a person, especially a loved one. Also if you come to the conclusion that something is so strange and unexplainable that ghosts are your only possible conclusion doesnt that also open the door to other possibilities?

[Teleros]

That's my point exactly. Majority of supposed encounters dont behave in any way like a person, especially a loved one. Also if you come to the conclusion that something is so strange and unexplainable that ghosts are your only possible conclusion doesnt that also open the door to other possibilities?

Oh there should definitely be other possibilities - I can go straight to the good book for cases of possession and the like, so I've got some possibilities right there just for starters.

[Shadowferal]

That's my point exactly. Majority of supposed encounters dont behave in any way like a person, especially a loved one. Also if you come to the conclusion that something is so strange and unexplainable that ghosts are your only possible conclusion doesnt that also open the door to other possibilities?

Definitely other possibilities.
That doesn't exclude ghosts however.

I can't help but keep an open mind to everything. It's more wondrous to explore it all rather than confine myself to the boring mundane snoozefest, playing it "safe," which just might not be the answer. Considering how fundamentally limited humanity is, I find it likely that some strange crazy shit is out...somewhere.

[Orby]

I don't believe it but I love to want to. This world is so damn boring, give us aliens, ghosts and demons god dammit :P

[Shadowferal]

I don't believe it but I love to want to. This world is so damn boring, give us aliens, ghosts and demons god dammit :P

Ever see the movie "Annihilation?"

[Vorkreist]

If you do the right psychedelics you can challenge your beliefs.
Ghosts and crap is medieval level of "otherworldly" .

[Pony Soldier]

I won't say I BELIEVE in ghosts or dimensional beings but I don't deny the existence of that stuff either. I guess you can say I have an agnostic view on it. Although I love reading and watching movies and documentaries about that stuff. I find it really interesting.

I have to add too that when it comes to extraterrestrial beings I do believe in them. Maybe not so much when it comes to visiting our planet and mingling with our government (but again I don't deny it either) but regarding their existence in general I'd say they're out there somewhere. The universe is just way too big for there to be no other life forms or even intelligent life forms out there. Billions and billions of planets within millions and millions of galaxies. How could there not be intelligent life on at least one or two of those planets?

[Orby]

Ever see the movie "Annihilation?"

I really been meaning to but never got around to it :P

[unbound]

Considering those numbers, I find it hard to believe that we're alone and that everything else out there is just a bunch of dead rocks and gas.

It does become an interesting discussion at the end of the day. Many will point to Drake's equation, but few seem to notice that it is a mix of simple and complex.

Drake's equation is:

N = R* * fp * ne * fl * fi *fc * L

where:

R* = average rate of star formation in our galaxy
fp = fraction of those stars having planets
ne = number of planets that can potentially support life
fl = fraction of planets that could support life that actually develop life at some point
fi = fraction of planets with life that actually go on to develop intelligent life
fc = fraction of civilizations that develop a technology that releases detectable signs of their existence into space
L = length of time for which such civilizations release detectable signals into space

R* is something we can estimate pretty accurately and is measured in the hundreds of billions.

fp is something that we are finding is probably pretty common and is likely to be at least 50% (possibly much higher).

ne is also something that is likely reasonably common but is currently much harder to determine. Probably on order of 0.5 to 1 planet per star overall.

fl is something that is completely unknown and involves hundreds (if not more) factors. It could literally be anywhere from 1 in a million to 1 in ten.

fi is also something that is completely unknown and also involves thousands (if not more) factors. From our own planet, the mechanism that allows for larger scale life (therefore even the possibility of intelligence) was mitochondria which appears to only have happened once (most other biological things happened multiple times). That element alone could be anywhere from 1 in a billion to 1 in hundreds. And that still doesn't even necessarily get us to intelligent life.

fc is pure speculation at this point. We don't have convincing evidence of it to this day besides ourselves.

L is also pure speculation at this point.

So, when you put those things together, the first 4 elements of the equation make it look like a slam dunk, but the last 3 elements are so complicated that you can get anywhere from tens of thousands of civilizations to only a handful (or less), and it's entirely guesswork on our part.

So, life is extremely likely in our universe (bacteria and virus level). Intelligent life is a much different conversation and actually remains very speculative as to the odds.

[Shadowferal]

I really been meaning to but never got around to it :P

Well, I admit it dragged for me. But to me, the utter horror of this movie revolved around the fact that the alien...was just that; utterly alien in every way. There just wasn't any connection to anything remotely that a person could equate to...no mathematics, language, symbols....the thing tried to grasp human form by using indigenous plant life, but it was scary to see that much.
My point however regarding the subject is that this could have easily be an example of an alien species.

[deepr]

I also believe there is (intelligent) life out there somewhere. Regardless of the chances that it exists, I doubt we will ever see it and I doubt it will ever come to us.
Our radio signals have only been here for a short while and also degrade into the background noise after a few light years. I think it's safe to say nobody even knows we're here. Further away into the galaxy and universe, aliens could have spotted our planet, with no possible way of knowing that we are here.
Also take into account that by far most of the observable universe (from any point in space) is forever unreachable because the expansion of space is causing everything to move away faster than the speed of light. So these aliens are going to need FTL capability and such, which makes it all the more unlikely.