Mega-Thread: Democratic 2020 Primaries

[JohnBrown1917]

So which was it?

The media was on his side? Or the media didn't declare him over?

Always been on the side of whoever their billionare masters like. Maybe you have heard of this thing called 'capitalism'. This is hardly unique to the US. The UK invented this shit.

[Themius]

I've been having to let it stew in my mind overnight, but slowly and surely I'm becoming ok with Biden as the likely nominee. Not because I think he's a good candidate or even has good policy positions but simply because he's Not-Trump and he at least has a shot at winning IMO. I do hope Bernie stays in it until the end to keep Joe on his toes and extract concessions to the progressive movement from Joe and the Democratic establishment. Maybe not M4A, but he can push the $15 minimum wage or the New Green Deal. I think most of the Democratic voters could get behind those.

But fuck, you people could be a little more gracious in your likely victory. Instead this thread is constantly filled with gloating and superiority and shit-talking Bernie and his supporters. You make it real hard to get on board with Joe when you shove your hand in Bernie's supporters faces at every opportunity. Let folk grieve for awhile and get over it, most will come around in the end.

I don't understand why M4A is controversial at all.

[Elegiac]

If her top priority is truly pushing a progressive agenda she should drop out now and put her full support behind Bernie. Even if Bernie is not the nominee by pushing him as high as possible it will give that much more weight to the progressive movement.

I disagree, for the reasons outlined previously. Bernie is a hindrance to progressivism this cycle.

She stands more to gain by extracting progressive policy concessions from Biden, at this point. It's not ideologically pure, but it is feasible and sensible, which is exactly on brand for her.

[Edge-]

Right untill the SC surge, and how is it lazy? All media empires are owned by billionares.

Right up until the SC surge, and even shortly afterwards as polling was still indicating Sanders firmly in the lead.

I get it, we're using the standard "MEDIA ARE ALL BAD BECAUSE BILLIONAIRES!" argument that holds some weight, but it's not a blanket argument that's your "Trump" card every time you don't have any evidence to back up your arguments.

Show me where they've been fawning over and boosting him prior the sudden turn with the SC election. Because Sanders similarly saw very positive articles about his momentum following his early wins as well, so it's not unique to Biden.

How the fuck are you people this naive?

Because you guys make terrible arguments with little to no evidence backing them up and rely on emotional foundations like "BUT BILLIONAIRES!" as if that's an instant "I win" card.

[TigTone]

I don't understand why M4A is controversial at all.

Some Americans believe less taxes = better quality of life.

So M4A to them = more taxes = bad life.

[Grapemask]

But fuck, you people could be a little more gracious in your likely victory. Instead this thread is constantly filled with gloating and superiority and shit-talking Bernie and his supporters. You make it real hard to get on board with Joe when you shove your hand in Bernie's supporters faces at every opportunity. Let folk grieve for awhile and get over it, most will come around in the end.

Whoa there buddy. As we all know, only Bernie Sanders supporters are toxic toward other people in political discussions. Everyone else nods and smiles politely. That's what political discussions on the internet were known for until Sanders came along. All that civility.

[starlord]

Some Americans believe less taxes = better quality of life.

So M4A to them = more taxes = bad life.

its more than that. a lot of americans have an aversion to government run programs in general, plus hearing horror stories of canadian health programs for years. obviously its not all true, but the bias is there.


not directed entirely at you, but if people want to progress the progressive agenda they need to be able to address criticisms with more than oversimplifications.

[Draco-Onis]

No, she did NOT. Why are you pushing this false narrative?

The numbers don't lie her poll numbers were tanking even before the establishment put their finger on the scale. She is not establishment per say but her stock as a progressive is on a downward trajectory.

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its more than that. a lot of americans have an aversion to government run programs in general, plus hearing horror stories of canadian health programs for years. obviously its not all true, but the bias is there.


not directed entirely at you, but if people want to progress the progressive agenda they need to be able to address criticisms with more than oversimplifications.

They do address the criticism with facts and numbers besides the "horror stories" from Canada are nothing compared to the US.

[Dacien]

Some Americans believe less taxes = better quality of life.

So M4A to them = more taxes = bad life.

I just don't think it's a good idea to completely overhaul our healthcare system in a government takeover. We need to do something, but that sounds like a terrible solution. Especially since they can't even tell us how to fund it without tricks like slashing payment rates 40% and expecting that it won't affect staffing or quality of care.

Every time they talk about how to pay for M4A they use sleight of hand. And adherents push the dubious explanations like a Trump supporter pushing Trump's "50% approval rating!" It's not accurate, but it unfortunately just doesn't matter.

[Draco-Onis]

Interesting fun fact: Biden spent decades in the Senate building coalitions.

Bonus fact: Of the two, only one is actually a Democrat.

I am glad you agree that the party should eventually split.

[Edge-]

The numbers don't lie her poll numbers were tanking even before the establishment put their finger on the scale. She is not establishment per say but her stock as a progressive is on a downward trajectory.

"The establishment" didn't do squat. What happened was politics, and Biden out-maneuvered Sanders and worked his connections. That's literally just politics.

And there's actually a lot of questions about exactly why her numbers tanked so hard. Her debate performance was largely solid, and she turned in some great recent showings that seemed to have minimal effect. A lot of folks tie her slide to her M4A plan and the sticker shock that resulted from it, but even then there doesn't seem to be much agreement on exactly why her promising campaigning and numbers suddenly disappeared.

[starlord]

The numbers don't lie her poll numbers were tanking even before the establishment put their finger on the scale. She is not establishment per say but her stock as a progressive is on a downward trajectory.

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They do address the criticism with facts and numbers besides the "horror stories" from Canada are nothing compared to the US.

then explain to us why M4A is controversial?

[Telogrus]

Not having a Republican president is also in black interests.

I'd be very wary of casting stones at black voters by implying they're low information or aren't actually concerned about America's socioeconomic problems, if I were you.

Tbf, 6 in 10 South Carolinans voted based on Clyburn's endorsement.

[Elegiac]

I just don't think it's a good idea to completely overhaul our healthcare system in a government takeover. We need to do something, but that sounds like a terrible solution. Especially since they can't even tell us how to fund it without tricks like slashing payment rates 40% and expecting that it won't affect staffing or quality of care.

Every time they talk about how to pay for M4A they use sleight of hand. And adherents push the dubious explanations like a Trump supporter pushing Trump's "50% approval rating!" It's not accurate, but it unfortunately just doesn't matter.

Fortunately for you, someone has a plan for that.

I think she also has a plan to address literacy too.

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Tbf, 6 in 10 South Carolinans voted based on Clyburn's endorsement.

Tbf, Bernie Sanders didn't even approach Clyburn to try and obtain his endorsement.

Please explain how he's demonstrating effective campaigning, here?

[Draco-Onis]

I just don't think it's a good idea to completely overhaul our healthcare system in a government takeover. We need to do something, but that sounds like a terrible solution. Especially since they can't even tell us how to fund it without tricks like slashing payment rates 40% and expecting that it won't affect staffing or quality of care.

Every time they talk about how to pay for M4A they use sleight of hand. And adherents push the dubious explanations like a Trump supporter pushing Trump's "50% approval rating!" It's not accurate, but it unfortunately just doesn't matter.

There are several analysis and plans on how to pay for it you just don't want to read them so you cannot be helped. I have yet to hear any alternatives from the right to our deteriorating health care system one with 87 million Americans plus left out of it.

[Rasulis]

Right up until the SC surge, and even shortly afterwards as polling was still indicating Sanders firmly in the lead.

I get it, we're using the standard "MEDIA ARE ALL BAD BECAUSE BILLIONAIRES!" argument that holds some weight, but it's not a blanket argument that's your "Trump" card every time you don't have any evidence to back up your arguments.

Show me where they've been fawning over and boosting him prior the sudden turn with the SC election. Because Sanders similarly saw very positive articles about his momentum following his early wins as well, so it's not unique to Biden.



Because you guys make terrible arguments with little to no evidence backing them up and rely on emotional foundations like "BUT BILLIONAIRES!" as if that's an instant "I win" card.

The preliminary analysis indicates that, despite record or near record breaking turnouts in all states, youth turnout was down from 2016 level in North Carolina, Virginia, Tennessee, Vermont and Alabama. Bernie lost four of those states.

[Draco-Onis]

then explain to us why M4A is controversial?

Same reason the ACA was people are scared of change especially the demographic that's on socialized medicine already the old.

[Grapemask]

then explain to us why M4A is controversial?

Ironically, the group it seems to be most controversial with is the group that already gets it. Boomers are killing us.

[Elegiac]

"The establishment" didn't do squat. What happened was politics, and Biden out-maneuvered Sanders and worked his connections. That's literally just politics.

And there's actually a lot of questions about exactly why her numbers tanked so hard. Her debate performance was largely solid, and she turned in some great recent showings that seemed to have minimal effect. A lot of folks tie her slide to her M4A plan and the sticker shock that resulted from it, but even then there doesn't seem to be much agreement on exactly why her promising campaigning and numbers suddenly disappeared.

I mean...there's an explanation, it's a question of how far that rabbit hole you're willing to go.

Nor is it made up out of whole cloth when you consider the demographics of people in Massachusetts that support or oppose her. Hint: It's very obviously divided along the lines you probably guessed.

[Lenonis]

I disagree, for the reasons outlined previously. Bernie is a hindrance to progressivism this cycle.

She stands more to gain by extracting progressive policy concessions from Biden, at this point. It's not ideologically pure, but it is feasible and sensible, which is exactly on brand for her.

I'm not saying you are wrong but I'm fairly confident that your opinion is an outlier and probably isn't part of Warren's calculus.