New interview with Steve Danuser about BfA

[Orby]

Yes, and the Internet was right.

And only now, is one of the writers claiming that was the plan the entire time.

So, people are upset because either Blizzard was lying initially when they claimed Sylvanas was NOT Garrosh 2.0, or Danuser is lying now about that always being the plan. Or both.

When did Blizzard ever say she wasnt though? Although I am not sure Blizzard used the term Garrosh 2.0 they did state, as I mentioned before in a Q&A lore panel at Blizzcon, 2 years back(?), that when asked by an audience member that 'is Sylvanas becoming like Garrosh' one of the writers replied that Sylvanas see's Garrosh as an amateur in comparison to her'. Thats all we got.

If you can find anything that says otherwise I haven't heard it, so please share :P

[Gelannerai]

"One of the major themes in this expansion was expressed by Sylvanas in the opening words of the Battle for Azeroth trailer: "Ours is a cycle of hatred." To demonstrate that there is a cycle, we created a story structure for Sylvanas that, on the surface, echoed many broad strokes of the road Garrosh took. A warchief promoted under questionable circumstances. A brutal act of aggression that instigated conflict. Distrust among the inner circle that led to an uprising. These parallels were intentional. But it's within the nuance that we sought to show the story grow and change."

I mean yeah. Ultimately the story of BFA would not have been possible without MOP. We never experienced the burning legion orc stuff first hand. We weren't a part of that. Garrosh is essentially that, but for us, completing the parallel between us and Saurfang throughout the expansion, and utilized to give us sympathy to his position of frustration and defeat towards the Horde, who seem to repeatedly fall to darkness.

This expansion is a key example of what I've always said is Blizzard's greatest writing strength: Taking some writing they didn't like and expanding on it with new writing that makes it seem like it was all the grand plan all along. Jaina's arc is iconic in that regard. A perfect example of it, watching her change particularly from MOP to now. Thrall's arc is iconic in that regard, watching him through "Green Jesus" Cataclysm, through WOD, through Legion, through now.


What's different this time?
We are.

The expansion is over. Take a step back. Look at all of it, start to finish. I don't think it was perfect, but they accomplished a lot and I can see what they tried to do.

Have they actually tried? Their dogged adherence to the trite and lazy faction war says otherwise. We’ve had multiple plot lines that would logically lead to peace (if not outright unification of the factions) that have lead absolutely nowhere. But no, here we still fucking are with garbage story arcs that otherwise supposedly intelligent characters are forced into by having the idiot ball jammed into their hands over and over and over and over again. Then, when the players are like “ok screw it, FOR THE ALLIANCE/HORDE,” we’re absolutely beaten over the head with Blizzard’s writers turning around and saying “shame on you, war isn’t the answer and you’re all monsters for thinking it is” as if we were ever actually given a choice. Danuser is the very definition of a hack, and unfortunately he isn’t the only one Blizzard has on the payroll.

[Mehrunes]

Oh I am not a victim, I know I can be confrontational, but I very much doubt it is your place to defend this guy. Not that I even attacked him halve as much as you attacked me for some reason. I just explained why his argument was problematic, based on circumstantial evidence that I was myself witness to. You proceeded to insult me instantly and you keep doing it, expecting people to revere you as some kind of teacher god that tells everyone the truth.

"I am not a victim" says the person continuing to paint themself as someone that has been "attacked". Sorry to be the bearer of bad news again but pointing out that your post was fallacious in certain way constitutes neither an attack nor an insult. It's, to use your wording from the end of your post, merely pointing out that there was a problem with your post.

At which point I need to remind you that you presented you doing that to the post you were replying that as not an attack. Hell, you outright contrasted that to my reply. Which means you're trying to have it both ways. Either pointing problems with what one is replying to is not an attack, in which case your accusations here lose any merit, or you attacked another poster yourself (and did so first), making your moral high ground you put yourself on evaporate.

Likewise, I didn't say you attacked @Jastall either. It's rather weird of you to reduce everything to someone being attacked. Also again, if you don't want other people to reply to your posts to someone else, do take it to PMs. Alternatively, accept what forums are and what their function is. And look at that, speaking of Jastall they just confirmed how off-point your reply to them was, precisely in the ways I mentioned.

There IS more solo content, that is what the game is about now. There are like 20 chapters of solo content to play through. Of course that is not much content to begin with, but it a ton more solo content then raid content or group content. On top of that all dungeons have a solo mode, so you do not even have to group up for those. I did actually play SWTOR when it launched and went back precisely to play the story a few month ago, so I know what I am talking about. Not sure where you get your information, but if you need the Devs to come out and say that they ignored the raiding community for years then you will never get a satisfying answer. Which I am pretty sure is what you want anyway.

I can't exactly recall denying that there IS more solo content so something tells me your reply here doesn't actually address what you're quoting. I'd use the term non-sequitur but that's apparently an attack now.

Still not sure when you became his attorney in law, but sure. Turn it all you want, I explained my point 3 times now, you do not want to understand it, so it is pointless to keep talking.

I understand your point just fine. Unlike you, I also understand Jastall's point. Which is why I know your reply was not on point. Which I pointed out and which they confirmed.

Not so much a point as an analysis of your post history in various threads. You have not said anything positive about an Alliance character in the last years and you proceed to attack those people that do and I still am foggy on why you think attacking my taste in cinematics makes for a good argument. Guess you will do you anyhow.

I just gave you an example of how totally on point your amazing analysis (which totally wasn't an attempted "attack" on my tastes in turn, but I guess it's OK when you do it) is.

Considering you called my arguments "fantasies" and did not even understand what they were nor have the knowledge of the game in question to refute them and then insulted me for liking a cinematic... yeah I am gonna stick with "attack".

Yeah, no. Your "evidence" of me not having knowledge about the game in question stems from you blatantly misreading what I wrote. And given how in your previous reply you went out to flat out confirm my remark how you were making claims about SWTOR without any proof, your shift to how I "did not even understand what your arguments were" is not very believable.

And I attacked you for liking a cinematic too now? I thought it was me calling your non-sequitur (as confirmed by the person you were replying to) a non-sequitur that was the "attack"?

Forums are for discussions, which I did with Jastalls post. I did not say he made up something, did not call his point a fantasy and did not insult him for it, I merely pointed out that there was a problem with it.

You are repeatedly trying to pin SWTOR's general state on the story aspect of it. When all your arguments in favor of that notion consists of you pointing out that there exists more solo content than raid content and enumerating examples of said solo content. I.e. all you have is no causal link but plenty of confirmation bias. And you continue to do so even after it's been pointed out to you that FFXIV faces no such issue with multiplayer content despite offering plenty of good quality and consistent storytelling. And solo content, including soloable dungeons just like SWTOR. Though I'm not sure why you moved the goalposts from story to solo content to begin with. Calling your confirmation bias a fantasy is apt because it's kinda what confirmation bias is by definition. Which, you know, is a problem with your post. Which I pointed out. Then again you already made it apparent in an earlier paragraph that things are fine if you're the one doing them.

You simply jumped at me without even understanding what I wrote nor did you have a point to make, you just went on slinging mud. That was why I even bothered to reply, because your behaviour sucked and I felt it necessary to point out, but as with all replies to your posts it was just completely wasted time.

Once again, you flat out confirmed that you have no proof for your claims about SWTOR's case and Jastall flat out confirmed your remark was a non-sequitur. If you're going to make things up about how I "jumped" at you without "even understanding what you wrote" (let alone that I did not have a point to make because I was quite clear on my points) in order to defend your post, try to do so in a way that's even remotely believable. Otherwise there's little point to you doing that and even less of that defense.

[ilgynoth]

When did Blizzard ever say she wasnt though? Although I am not sure Blizzard used the term Garrosh 2.0 they did state, as I mentioned before in a Q&A lore panel at Blizzcon, 2 years back(?), that when asked by an audience member that 'is Sylvanas becoming like Garrosh' one of the writers replied that Sylvanas see's Garrosh as an amateur in comparison to her'. Thats all we got.

If you can find anything that says otherwise I haven't heard it, so please share :P

There are over 5 Interviews where they (Ion Haz. Steve D. John hight, Alex Afrasiabi etc) literally said Sylvanas is not Garrosh 2. 0 . Those Interviews were all linked here on MMO-C and even diskussed. Have you been sleepen all the time?

[Orby]

There are over 5 Interviews where they (Ion Haz. Steve D. John hight, Alex Afrasiabi etc) literally said Sylvanas is not Garrosh 2. 0 . Those Interviews were all linked here on MMO-C and even diskussed. Have you been sleepen all the time?

I really don;t expect myself to watch every interview, but once again if you have a link to these interviews... And I aint saying people are wrong to say otherwise, I am just pointing out that I have never heard them actually say that Garrosh WASN'T Garrosh 2.0. But I have seen interviews where they have drawn similarities :P

Have they actually tried? Their dogged adherence to the trite and lazy faction war says otherwise. We’ve had multiple plot lines that would logically lead to peace (if not outright unification of the factions) that have lead absolutely nowhere. But no, here we still fucking are with garbage story arcs that otherwise supposedly intelligent characters are forced into by having the idiot ball jammed into their hands over and over and over and over again. Then, when the players are like “ok screw it, FOR THE ALLIANCE/HORDE,” we’re absolutely beaten over the head with Blizzard’s writers turning around and saying “shame on you, war isn’t the answer and you’re all monsters for thinking it is” as if we were ever actually given a choice. Danuser is the very definition of a hack, and unfortunately he isn’t the only one Blizzard has on the payroll.

While I agree BFA hasnt been perfect, there are many questionable plot points that don't make sense, 8.3 being a horrible mess, the best stuff was early on, The Jaina redemption story arc and the Saurfang story was some of the best Blizzard have done. Old Soldier is one of my favourite cinematic Blizzard have ever done.

Although anything with Sylvanas I just hate... anything she appeared in was just me constantly letting out a loud groan lol.

I do think Blizzard 'try', well their story department, their publishing and over paid high ups can go fuck themselves, but we know little of the limitations to how their story process works, their main issue is they having too many damn writers. And even the writers are not writing the story. Christie Golden has gone on to say she doesn't make up the lore, there are people telling the writers what to write about and the writers job is to just to tell it.

Which makes me so annoyed when people put on the blame on Christie Golden for ruining the ;lore., when she isnt even making it up, she is basically doing her job of what she is told to write. Also Golden is a lovely woman, and the hate she gets is so uncalled for in my opinion.

[Mehrunes]

I really don;t expect myself to watch every interview, but once again if you have a link to these interviews... And I aint saying people are wrong to say otherwise, I am just pointing out that I have never heard them actually say that Garrosh WASN'T Garrosh 2.0. But I have seen interviews where they have drawn similarities :P

I think it kinda goes without saying that Garrosh wasn't Garrosh 2.0.

[Orby]

I think it kinda goes without saying that Garrosh wasn't Garrosh 2.0.

That much speaks for itself. As it stand now we are at the end of the BfA yes, she wasnt Garrosh 2.0/

Now I don;t know what nuances mean in Steve Danuser terms, but I suppose that much is to confirm that separation...

[allawyn]

They ignore the Horde except when it comes to hitting them with the Villian bat. They have apologized for a ton of other things, but have called that a success. Conclusion, nothing will change. That is why I unsubscribed.

[Syegfryed]

As it stand now we are at the end of the BfA yes, she wasnt Garrosh 2.0/

Except we have the lead dev saying she was

[Eggroll]

How is that a bad thing, everyone joked "lol Blizzard making Sylvanas Garrosh 2.0 Blizzard suck and are unoriginal" now you are upset she isn't Garrosh 2.0.... The fickle levels are off the charts when it comes to this forum.

I don't think you understand what I just said. My point was: it IS Garrosh 2.0, that's the point. Only with boobs and a vagina.

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They ignore the Horde except when it comes to hitting them with the Villian bat. They have apologized for a ton of other things, but have called that a success. Conclusion, nothing will change. That is why I unsubscribed.

And they have ignored the nelves except when it comes to making them the Horde's punching bag.

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I think it kinda goes without saying that Garrosh wasn't Garrosh 2.0.

Lol, /10char

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Other than that, it's like a copy paste of every dev interview ever.

"We, the team, are happy, with the state of affairs and we have learned a lot, blabla..."

Next interview, rinse and repeat.

[ravenmoon]

They ignore the Horde except when it comes to hitting them with the Villian bat. They have apologized for a ton of other things, but have called that a success. Conclusion, nothing will change. That is why I unsubscribed.

No, other way round, they pay a lot of attention to the horde,t hat is why you get the villain bat, but you also get the hero bat.

Every time the horde goes down the villain path, it's the horde that rescues and saves teh horde and are teh bigger heroes. Alliance are just secondary support characters.


Your blizzard likes the hordde a lot, and tries to make it interesting, however, it doesn't seem tehy are doing the sort of story people enjoy. People are humans, teh sort of thing that will most appeal to them would fit the alliance, however, it doesn't mean the horde cannot be popular for what it is.

They 've just been terribly inconsistent, and failed to properly weave the mixed races into anything cohesive. This is partl ybecaue the horde just doesn't fit as one massive united empire. It just doesn't. You can't put blood elves and frosaken, nightborne and Pandas into that and expect it to make sense.

No the horde works better as being led by a bunch of warlords from each race, that need to come together only when there is trouble, similar to how the orc calns worked.

The misfit horde of classic doesn't exist anymore. Because they are not protrayed that way in game, the oppressed minority, valiantly standing up for their right to existence. I twas toyed with in Calssic, but ditched to go for the attractive powerful horde, with mighty warriors, and drop dead gorgeous elf barbie babes. And stories that were full of character heroes on steroids, just pumping fanfic levels of rubbish.

The horde turend from needing to fight for every inch against powerful alliance adversaries like night elves or the vastly populated humans into this power hog machine taht can smash and bulldoze anything in its path without much effort.

in thier over enthusiasm for the horde , they both made it unremarkable and consequently made the alliance irrelevant.


Alliance fans hate it because their faction is moulded into the horde with the high king nonsense, then never does anything meaningful or impactful when compared to the other faction hogging the spotlight constantly. On close observation they notice their faction is support for the horde's drama or whipping boys for their rock hard jerk off.

Horde notices that their horde is convoluted and always changing, too much is happening and the plots and twists are un-necessarily complicated. Getting the story spotlight but that actual story just somehow not managing to be enjoyed by people.


What is the reason for the poor faction portrayal? Bias. They stopped trying to write a great story, and instead to push their faction and character faves. Sure alliance race'd characters tend to show up a lot, notice it is NEVER for the alliance, and the horde have access to them like best buddies - (not complaining, But faction matters are always the horde, and they tend to dominate the story), notice it is never the alliance leading the charge against world threats, no, just individual characters that are of alliance race, not acting in faction motivations (which is fine, not complaining either, factions should play far less of a role, and races far more, with characters being the focal points)

Well, that has been the case since classic. but never this blatant.

[Varodoc]

I don't think you understand what I just said. My point was: it IS Garrosh 2.0, that's the point. Only with boobs and a vagina.

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And they have ignored the nelves except when it comes to making them the Horde's punching bag.

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Lol, /10char

It's not Garrosh 2.0 because her motivations are completely different. She does not want to build a utopian world in which her race can prosper. She wants to kill all living beings in the world, because she believes it is foolish to cling to hope and to life and she wants to free everyone from what she perceives to be the shackles of mortality.

[Talrath]

Looks like people are posting with the purpose of arguing.

Look we all know the lore has been ham when you compare with other MMORPGS *ughem FF14 - GW2 etc*, we all know that the devs screwed pvp combat and pve. Basically they destroyed BFA. Reason? well for the combat system and progression system I understand that they have the incentive to let players invest a buck load of time into the game. Which means more subscription money. This most probably comes from Activision telling them to design a system that forces players to spend a considerate amount of time into the game.

The lore, I dont know…. Activision doesnt care about the lore, only about the money that gets in of game time cuz of game system. Steve Danuser isnt very well known in the writing section. I tried googling him and found almost to nothing, hes a senior game designer and lead narrative designer. Worked on some games, but dont know in which role. Going to Alex Afrisiabi as the Creative Director, again no other information is available to the public. But the writer of FF14 -Natsuko Ishikawa- , she worked on Stormblood and later became the mainwriter of Shadowbringers and even got a standing ovation of the latter. Most probably the devs liked her writing in stormblood and made her write the mainstory of shadowbringers. The thing is if you look into her bio you can see that she clearly has been a writer, while at WoW team you cant look up their bio on Google.

My impression of how the story has been of WoW is that it has never been good, it has always been meh, BUT they did nice stupid things. They had Space Satan and his armies and stuff like that. Right now, this has been trown out of the window and the story is now really bad. If they cant make an intricate story then dont try to do it, it will feel forced. An intricate story requires that you use every character in your disposal and create a story, one goes bad because something happens etc. Heck in FF14 you even symphatize with the main villain of his actions.

So all in all, Steve + Alex, just say the truth and say you messed up. If Activision fires you, well you got an amazing resume.

[Eggroll]

It's not Garrosh 2.0 because her motivations are completely different. She does not want to build a utopian world in which her race can prosper. She wants to kill all living beings in the world, because she believes it is foolish to cling to hope and to life and she wants to free everyone from what she perceives to be the shackles of mortality.

Well, it's her twisted view of reality, and she wants to force everyone else into it. That's even worse than Garrosh. It's Garrosh 2.0 on steroids.

To me it comes down to her fear of death, she's just too much of a coward to meet her maker. So everyone else has to suffer. If that's not megalomanic I don't know what is.

[Verdugo]

Well, it's her twisted view of reality, and she wants to force everyone else into it. That's even worse than Garrosh. It's Garrosh 2.0 on steroids.

Look at reality where Anduin rules.

Still think it can be worse?

[Eggroll]

Look at reality where Anduin rules.

Still think it can be worse?

I agree, he sucks, too. But he doesn't force everyone into his way of seeing the world.

[Varodoc]

Well, it's her twisted view of reality, and she wants to force everyone else into it. That's even worse than Garrosh. It's Garrosh 2.0 on steroids.

To me it comes down to her fear of death, she's just too much of a coward to meet her maker. So everyone else has to suffer. If that's not megalomanic I don't know what is.

But the fact that she's worse than Garrosh is what doesn't make her Garrosh 2.0. They even said at Blizzcon that Garrosh was an amateur compared to her. Because at the end of the day Garrosh just wanted to conquer the world, that's something a lot of villains want, it's pretty average, but Sylvanas literally seeks to break the cosmic balance that is the very framework of the universe. She is a lot more twisted than Garrosh.

I think the problem is that "She isn't Garrosh 2.0" sounds like a way to defend Sylvanas, when actually it's bashing her even more. She's not Garrosh 2.0 because she's Arthas 2.0, like Warbringers made obvious.

[Verdugo]

I agree, he sucks, too. But he doesn't force everyone into his way of seeing the world.

Nope, instead everyone is warped into it by writers.

[Black Goat]

We're proud of our storytelling in Battle for Azeroth...

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Ha.

[Zuben]

The story ending up being what it appeared to be is exactly what killed it for me and I don't think I'm alone in that thought. Danuser ought to take notes.