Mega-Thread: Democratic 2020 Primaries

[Edge-]

UGH. I just saw it on my FB feed from The 98%.

I'm sad that they didn't get shuttered along with Think Progress or whatever. Both are garbage tier sites with garbage tier reporting that just physically hurts to read -_-

[Telogrus]

I promise that I’ll vote for Biden as long as Biden Boys stop acting so toxic

[Skroe]

It does kind of tickle me that people are using the direct $1200 payout that the Senate is deciding about right now as some Universal Basic Income moment. It tickles me pink. The US did something similar in 2008 (the Economic Stimus Act) and after the Dot Com crash in 2001. This is hardly unprecedented. It's an efficient emergency economic stimulus, not UBI.

Pure fucking bad faith hijack job.


Not that we shouldn't do it. We should. But it's in no way makes any sort of case for UBI. It's a fire hose. Not a new entitlement.

[d00mGuArD]

It does kind of tickle me that people are using the direct $1200 payout that the Senate is deciding about right now as some Universal Basic Income moment. It tickles me pink. The US did something similar in 2008 (the Economic Stimus Act) and after the Dot Com crash in 2001. This is hardly unprecedented. It's an efficient emergency economic stimulus, not UBI.

Pure fucking bad faith hijack job.


Not that we shouldn't do it. We should. But it's in no way makes any sort of case for UBI. It's a fire hose. Not a new entitlement.

The chances of a UBI in the midst of a looming financial crisis are more remote than ever.
It was impossible to do UBI before, now it will be quadruple impossible.

[Draco-Onis]

The chances of a UBI in the midst of a looming financial crisis are more remote than ever.
It was impossible to do UBI before, now it will be quadruple impossible.

It's impossible politically fiscally we can easily pull it off we have given more than that in tax cuts, bailouts to corporations and rich people.

[Telogrus]

You know that your nominee is bad when the strategy is to have him appear in the public as little as possible because you know that whenever he talks, his poll numbers go down. I wouldn’t be surprised if Biden’s campaign convinced him to not go to the debates

[Endus]

While your criticism is obviously welcome, I don't think that statements like these boil down to anything but ad hominem.

First of, in the USA people don't get to vote for 'policies', 'ideologies' or 'political factions' - they end up having to vote for a personality. Obviously then when that choice is criticized people will come to the defense of the personality - being given very little choice in the matter.
Also even if then your personality of choice does something wrong it becomes politically stupid to throw them under the bus for it, because that diminishes your own political power. Again very little pragmatic options are available in such situations.

Seems to me like it's more of a structural problem with the US election system where people are encouraged to band around personalities, rather than ideas.

It's not a consequence of the US system. It's a consequence of the US electorate. You folks keep choosing this, and nobody's forcing you to.

Otherwise I'd like to hear why there would be a difference in the behavior of supporters between Sanders and any other democratic candidate (spoiler: the study has already been performed with no noticeable difference in behavior spotted, save for a lack of passion / motivation for Biden supporters).

Your own source provides the answer that contradicts you;

Bernie followers act pretty much the same on Twitter as any other follower. There is one key difference that Twitter users and media don't seem to be aware of. Bernie has a lot more Twitter followers than Twitter followers of other Democrat's campaigns.

Same for Trump, whose follower numbers are huge by comparison.

The analysis only looks at the percentage chance per capita that a Twitter follower was negative. So Tweets supporting their candidate would, obviously, not count. But, by the same analysis, there's a lot more Sanders followers taking themselves to Twitter in the first place, and we know now pretty conclusively that this does not translate into a greater number of followers at the ballot box. So it's not that there's more Bernie supporters. Just a higher percentage of them on Twitter.

It doesn't actually argue that Bernie Bros don't exist; that greater number of Twitter followers says otherwise. It says Bernie Bros don't get more abusive, per capita, than other followers, but there's more of them, so there's more total abuse coming from Bernie supporters overall (and still more from Trump supporters, by a wiiide margin, I'll note). It's not the rate that gives them the image, it's that absolute figure. People notice the stand-out abuse, and there's a lot more of it coming from the Bernie camp than any other Democratic camp, by the study you linked.

Also; the "Bernie Bro" tag wasn't just about "being negative in Tweets", in the first place, so really, the study doesn't actually establish its premises very well.

[Telogrus]

It's not a consequence of the US system. It's a consequence of the US electorate. You folks keep choosing this, and nobody's forcing you to.



Your own source provides the answer that contradicts you;

Bernie followers act pretty much the same on Twitter as any other follower. There is one key difference that Twitter users and media don't seem to be aware of. Bernie has a lot more Twitter followers than Twitter followers of other Democrat's campaigns.

Same for Trump, whose follower numbers are huge by comparison.

The analysis only looks at the percentage chance per capita that a Twitter follower was negative. So Tweets supporting their candidate would, obviously, not count. But, by the same analysis, there's a lot more Sanders followers taking themselves to Twitter in the first place, and we know now pretty conclusively that this does not translate into a greater number of followers at the ballot box. So it's not that there's more Bernie supporters. Just a higher percentage of them on Twitter.

It doesn't actually argue that Bernie Bros don't exist; that greater number of Twitter followers says otherwise. It says Bernie Bros don't get more abusive, per capita, than other followers, but there's more of them, so there's more total abuse coming from Bernie supporters overall (and still more from Trump supporters, by a wiiide margin, I'll note). It's not the rate that gives them the image, it's that absolute figure. People notice the stand-out abuse, and there's a lot more of it coming from the Bernie camp than any other Democratic camp, by the study you linked.

Also; the "Bernie Bro" tag wasn't just about "being negative in Tweets", in the first place, so really, the study doesn't actually establish its premises very well.

Because he has like over 60% of the 45 and under age group?

[cubby]

The US system is the Electoral system.

It's written into the very foundation of our constitution so except for a Amendment passing 2/3 of congress and house, or a constitutional convention (which has never been done since the constitution was written). Nearly impossible in even the best circumstances.

Almost forget..., Feel Free to Venmo me your debt anytime.

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...-Nominee/page5

I love that you skip over all the salient points and then post something we already know. Not sure what your goal is, but having a conversation about a serious subject isn't it.
@Endus made several points and you ignored them all. Especially about the Bernie Bros and Twitter data.

[d00mGuArD]

Yes, that's different.

Anything socialist that works or is good, that's different.

Internet. that's different.

Fire service. that's different.

Police. that's different.

Military. that's different.

Aboliton of child labour (key demand of the communist manifesto and previously commonplace).that's different.

Amazing the level of bullshit denial Skroe possesses , this is literally redistribution of wealth in the purest sense imaginable. The fact that governments keep doing it suggests to every sane human being that it works and that we need formal UBI.

I just checked the countries with no democracy at all, with dictatorships and no social nets of any kind. Pure fascism countries.
They all have internet, fire service, police, military and abolition of child labour. Why do you think those are something socialism brings?
Does socialism also brings oxygen in the atmosphere?

[Telogrus]

The US system is the Electoral system.

It's written into the very foundation of our constitution so except for a Amendment passing 2/3 of congress and house, or a constitutional convention (which has never been done since the constitution was written). Nearly impossible in even the best circumstances.







Almost forget..., Feel Free to Venmo me your debt anytime.

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...-Nominee/page5

Neolibs grossly mischaracterized someone that isn’t in line with the establishment?? That’s a first!

[Levelfive]

The US system is the Electoral system.

It's written into the very foundation of our constitution so except for a Amendment passing 2/3 of congress and house, or a constitutional convention (which has never been done since the constitution was written). Nearly impossible in even the best circumstances.

Electorate means the set of qualified voters; it is not synonym of electoral college, which is why Endus correctly pointed out that the "US system" doesn't somehow force the electorate to value personality over policy.

[Draco-Onis]

How about that, Looks like at least one Candidate is going above and beyond in the moment of crisis. I'm sure they'll roll Biden out and pump him full of drugs to make some sort of response soon.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/mee...631#blogHeader

I have to say this does not bode well for Biden in a moment of crisis his campaign should be out there booking shows and putting out plans but it's almost like he's hiding.

[I Push Buttons]

I have to say this does not bode well for Biden in a moment of crisis his campaign should be out there booking shows and putting out plans but it's almost like he's hiding.

Why would he be 'putting out plans'? He isn't even a member of government currently? He has legitimately no say in what is going on beyond merely stating his opinions publicly.

Sanders is still a senator, and member of the senate leadership... Of course he's working on the government's response, that's literally his fucking job.

[Draco-Onis]

Why would he be 'putting out plans'? He isn't even a member of government currently? He has legitimately no say in what is going on beyond merely stating his opinions publicly.

Sanders is still a senator, and member of the senate leadership... Of course he's working on the government's response, that's literally his fucking job.

Optics of leadership candidates do it all the time and he is basically the defacto leader of the democratic party. Besides everything has changed now all his old plans need to be revised to reflect the new reality.

[Endus]

The US system is the Electoral system.

It's written into the very foundation of our constitution so except for a Amendment passing 2/3 of congress and house, or a constitutional convention (which has never been done since the constitution was written). Nearly impossible in even the best circumstances.

As levelfive noted, "the electorate" and "the Electoral system" are two completely different things. So really, you're ignoring what I said to attack a straw man.

[Endus]

"Completely Different" Sure thing . I guess if we just throwing all the basis of Civics101. Because you can totally have an electorate without an Electoral system.

It's literally what the words mean.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electorate

"The people who are eligible to vote in an election, especially their number"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_system

"An electoral system or voting system is a set of rules that determine how elections and referendums are conducted and how their results are determined."

Two different terms, for two different (if contextually related) things.

I said "electorate". You responded as if I were speaking of the electoral system. And now you're doubling down because you refuse to admit that you made a mistake.

[cubby]

"Completely Different" Sure thing . I guess if we just throwing all the basis of Civics101. Because you can totally have an electorate without an Electoral system or vis versa.

You now literally have no idea what you're talking about, and the best part, you proved it yourself.

Electorate is not the same thing as the Electoral system. One is a group of people who vote, another is a system of voting.

- - - Updated - - -

It's literally what the words mean.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electorate

"The people who are eligible to vote in an election, especially their number"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_system

"An electoral system or voting system is a set of rules that determine how elections and referendums are conducted and how their results are determined."

Two different terms, for two different (if contextually related) things.

I said "electorate". You responded as if I were speaking of the electoral system. And now you're doubling down because you refuse to admit that you made a mistake.

The Oatmeal put out a pretty interesting "statement" about that. The doubling down on an opinion someone knows to be wrong, but still doubles down.

https://theoatmeal.com/comics/believe

It's a fascinating phenomenon, and it's allowing a lot of Team Deplorable's peeps to continue to doubt science and voting against their interests.

[Muzjhath]

Our electoral system effects our electorate to pretend otherwise is absurd.. You can't blame the electorate given we have such an electoral system that promotes exactly what was discussed.

It's like saying it's the Electorate fault that the US is mired in a two party system. When our history has proven 3rd parties can't survive.

You said,



Which is false. Nice try tho
<video>

And you keep missing the point.
The electoral system, FPTP is what causes spoiler parties and candidates to ruin the side you root for.
The electorate. The voters. Causes Personallity or Policy to be the core reason to vote for, or against, someone.

[eschatological]

There have been third parties in our country. The Republican Party was a third party. It supplanted the Whigs.

The electorate (IE, voting people), could make a third party viable, at any point. If they wanted to, in say, 1992, they could have voted for Ross Perot to the point that NO ONE got 270 electoral votes.........and we would be forced to go to our backup systems of electing a President and VP. Which, iirc (I'm fuzzy on this), means it would have gone to a vote in the House of Representatives.

The problem is that second part. IF a plurality winner of electoral votes formed the government, but could effectively do nothing because they did not have a majority - we'd have to coalition build. Instead, our Constitution provides a way to solve the plurality-but-not-majority problem.