Mythic+ without timer

[lollerlaban]

It's called mythic+0

[froschhure]

mythic+ without timer that should be mythic?

[lollerlaban]

You get a chest even if you fail the timer

You used to be able to get replacements in m+ but blizzard decided to fuck with the system

Can you take a guess as to why? I'll give you a hint. They're gonna kick your ass before the end

[cparle87]

Death count. Key advances only with 0 deaths.

Then we'd have first death, group falls apart.

[Beace]

I don't agree with that in the slightest. There are a variety of reasons a group can't upgrade a 17.
A lot of a weeks a single wipe is the death of the timer.

Imagine if that was how raiding works?

That's all I am suggesting.
Allow players to do the difficulty they want.
If they can't complete it, that's their mistake.

The current M+ progression system works well, but not great, simply because a single offline or selfish player can force the other 4 to have to go backwards in progression.

If there was an incentive for FINISHING keys, the system would be excellent, and I think the best incentive would be "well at least we can work on upgrading our key eventually."

If you can't upgrade the 17 key, that's 95% a matter of skill and/or gear. Sure you can have an unlucky DC or leaver for that particular run, and that sucks for those players in that moment, but in the grand scheme of things it's not an issue.

And again, if you can't time the 17, you're unlikely to finish a 20 even in several hours. I think you underestimate how huge the difference is between multiple key levels at the upper range. That trash pack you struggled a little bit with is suddenly gonna chain wipe you because your dps gets 1-shot by abilities. Same with bosses. Blizzard generally tries to protects players from attempting content they are in no way ready for.

Raiding and M+ are very different activities for a bunch of different reasons, but sure let's do a comparison. Should a raiding team be allowed to skip directly to Mythic N'zoth without first having a kill on the previous bosses? RPG's have always been about progression, for you, for your character, for your team.

You do have an inventive to finish keys. End-of-dungeon loot and a weekly chest.

[Ragnarohk]

mythic without timer exists. Just ignore the damn timer.

If oyu don't like the timer ignore it. simple as that. MANY people really like the timer and the added challenge it brings.

If it where gone it would just be CC everything and kill one mob at a time. The Timer IS the challenge of mythic+ not the added other stuff. You can get everything down in a normal instance if you have the time to the point where the tank gets oneshot.

That's fine, however your key doesn't get upgraded.

Like I said in another post

If you can complete it, you get the rewards and key upgrade, regardless of time.

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Nope, they would just turn into extremely tedious slugests with groups spending 5 hours in one dungeon trying to cheese +30 boss fights.

Honestly, removing timers from M+ has to be the last thing I want for this game, and I want a lot. Please, please don't let this happen, I actually enjoy M+.

That opens more options. Taking 4 hours to complete a +30 sounds like a fun challange to me, it turns it into a "mini raid". You always have the option to rush through it with high skill and speed. It would be nice if they open the option to advance your keys even if you don't make the timer.

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If you can't upgrade the 17 key, that's 95% a matter of skill and/or gear. Sure you can have an unlucky DC or leaver for that particular run, and that sucks for those players in that moment, but in the grand scheme of things it's not an issue.

And again, if you can't time the 17, you're unlikely to finish a 20 even in several hours. I think you underestimate how huge the difference is between multiple key levels at the upper range. That trash pack you struggled a little bit with is suddenly gonna chain wipe you because your dps gets 1-shot by abilities. Same with bosses. Blizzard generally tries to protects players from attempting content they are in no way ready for.

Raiding and M+ are very different activities for a bunch of different reasons, but sure let's do a comparison. Should a raiding team be allowed to skip directly to Mythic N'zoth without first having a kill on the previous bosses? RPG's have always been about progression, for you, for your character, for your team.

You do have an inventive to finish keys. End-of-dungeon loot and a weekly chest.

But you can progress without a time limit. Pushing keys should be a matter of "you complete it, you get an upgraded key". You will eventually hit a wall, sure, it also happens with timed runs.

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mythic+ without timer that should be mythic?

Yes, but with scaling difficulty. The dungeon gets harder and harder, but you don't have to clear it in a time frame.

It shouldn*t make a difference if you have high Skill/Gear and blaze through the content or if it took you 3 hours to clear with alternative strats and comps. At the end, you both completed the Mythic+ and should both get the upgrade

[crakerjack]

I don't think it would change anything. The reason people are toxic is because there's a difference in player expectations. There are some players that just casually play and their performance isn't necessarily the most important thing to them. They'll join a m+ and perform at a mediocre level and possibly mess up here and there. Then there's the hardcore player that reads guides and how they perform is of the utmost importance. They hold themselves to a hide standard and the main focus on the keystone is how well they perform. Because they'll hold themselves to a high standard, it's not uncommon for some to then hold others to that same standard.

For me personally, I'll never flame someone. I'll suggest some tips if I notice they're drastically underperforming, but never slander. My standard for what I expect out of someone at the very least is that they know all the boss fights for each dungeon. They should know their rotation and while standing still, should have no problem sustaining their rotation. I don't necessarily expect them to be able to sustain their rotation while doing/dodging mechanics, but they should know their class and how to play it at the very least. If I'm playing with someone and they're completing neglecting part of their toolkit/ability pool, I'll suggest they try using X ability in Y scenario. If I get any response along the lines of "mind your own business" I'll promptly ignore them, finish the dungeon and never engage w/ them again.

It takes a certain level of selfishness to engage in "difficult" group content when someone knows they underperform. It especially makes it worse when they don't have any ambition to improve and bog the rest of the group down. I'll happily play with someone who underperforms and help them improve, but if performance isn't something that's important to them, stick to solo content.

[NihilSustinet]

Would you enjoy a Mythic+ without a timer?

I think it might make the community less toxic and would love such mode.

I'm all for

"If you can complete it, you get the rewards" regardless of time.

You used 3 tanks/2 healers and it took you 2 hours but managed to finish it? Congrats! You put the effort into it and made it, here is your reward and key upgrade.

i have anxiety issues that really make any game with a time limit mechanic not very fun for me. id love a m+ that just focused on challenge, where time isnt a factor.

[Chakah]

Yes but you need to given a cap on number of deaths. Also makes it an issue with unlimited time, do you just wait for bloodlust before each pull? It has problems.

1 death = depleted key. Why would we need a cap?
Lust won't fix issues with people who can't do mechanics.

[Fayolynn]

Death count. Key advances only with 0 deaths.

Removing the timer removes the key reason for people dying.

[Chakah]

Then we'd have first death, group falls apart.

Why would my guildies bail on me? Wait... you don't actually PUG high keys, do you? My condolences....

[Kaver]

Would you enjoy a Mythic+ without a timer?

I think it might make the community less toxic and would love such mode.

I'm all for

"If you can complete it, you get the rewards" regardless of time.

You used 3 tanks/2 healers and it took you 2 hours but managed to finish it? Congrats! You put the effort into it and made it, here is your reward and key upgrade.

I can understand why people want no timers.

But you also have to understand that when you talk about "a toxic community" it only applies to PUGs.

There are plenty of people who run with a organized group of friends and we actually enjoy the timer element.

The toxicity in the game mainly comes from PUGs. A lot of people act really badly when they play with someone who they have no connection with or investment in.

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Yes I would. Many people would.

Brace yourself for toxic answers tho.

Is it by default a toxic answer if you like the timer element?

I completely understand why people dislike the timer if they mainly PUG dungeons. But if you run with friends that you know and care about it is a different story.

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Then we'd have first death, group falls apart.

This don't happen if you play with friends.. I'm just saying.

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Group wipes on 1st pull.
DPS flames.
Tank leaves.

Yes, no timer will certainly make it less toxic. Groups arent toxic cause there is a timer, groups are toxic cause people are toxic.

Groups are toxic because you put 5 people together who don't give a shit about each other. When you do activities with complete strangers on the internet it often gets very toxic.

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^ This

People don't seem to realize that people are just toxic and no altered environments are going to change it, like the people who were expecting classic to be just like vanilla and that everyone would be one big happy community like it was 10-15 years ago.

People need to put this in perspective. You are gathering 5 complete strangers in a group on the internet and you expect them to behave decent... it's just not going to happen in many cases. It's funny to think about, what real life activities are you doing with completely strangers which you are never going to see again. Most people would probably say non.

[Tronski]

You already get loot for failing the timer. So mission accomplished.

But you're not advancing to a higher difficulty despite clearly being able to overcome the current difficulty. Some of us enjoy doing a dungeon at a slower pace while still having challenges to overcome. Some of us enjoy not having to memorise the optimal pulls, have the optimal setup, aoe fest while knowing exactly what to interrupt when out of those 20 pulled mobs.

Imagine a world where we could just be allowed to do a difficult dungeon. Eventually the bosses themselves function as hard caps. This would solve so many problems for Everyone, and especially those who doesn't have a steady group or high enough ilvl and/or score.

Also, there is this notion that if you get rewarded with an upgraded key just for finishing at all, then you can not have greater rewards and higher key upgrades for finishing on time.

This is stupidity at best and distilled toxic elitism at worst.

[Cleansing Totem]

Would you enjoy a Mythic+ without a timer?

I think it might make the community less toxic and would love such mode.

I'm all for

"If you can complete it, you get the rewards" regardless of time.

You used 3 tanks/2 healers and it took you 2 hours but managed to finish it? Congrats! You put the effort into it and made it, here is your reward and key upgrade.

Thats called regular mythic, enjoy

[Ragnarohk]

Thats called regular mythic, enjoy

Read my other posts. It's like as if you didn't even read after the first post.

[Tronski]

^ This

People don't seem to realize that people are just toxic and no altered environments are going to change it, like the people who were expecting classic to be just like vanilla and that everyone would be one big happy community like it was 10-15 years ago.

Zandalar Tribe - Eu delivered on those expectations. Our guild is a huge pillar, and the epicness of seeing 150-160 of us running towards Blackrock mountain and decimating anything red on the way is undescribable.

We fight with competing guilds and alliances for world bosses, 1-3 hours of griefing, sabotaging and nerd screaming, and then we congratulate the winners and are friends again.

Toxicity doesn't live well in classic if you don't let it.
I'm sincerely sorry your mileage did vary.

[Cleansing Totem]

Read my other posts. It's like as if you didn't even read after the first post.

There is no need to. M+ is fine. If you dont want the timer, do m0. If you want to run around failing keys taking your time, you can. Simply put that in the group description.

[Fayolynn]

But you're not advancing to a higher difficulty despite clearly being able to overcome the current difficulty. Some of us enjoy doing a dungeon at a slower pace while still having challenges to overcome. Some of us enjoy not having to memorise the optimal pulls, have the optimal setup, aoe fest while knowing exactly what to interrupt when out of those 20 pulled mobs.

Imagine a world where we could just be allowed to do a difficult dungeon. Eventually the bosses themselves function as hard caps. This would solve so many problems for Everyone, and especially those who doesn't have a steady group or high enough ilvl and/or score.

Also, there is this notion that if you get rewarded with an upgraded key just for finishing at all, then you can not have greater rewards and higher key upgrades for finishing on time.

This is stupidity at best and distilled toxic elitism at worst.

If you failed the timer then you failed to beat the current level of difficulty. Why should your key be upgraded? The majority of mythic+ difficulty comes from rushing to beat the timer. Not needing to rush means you can CC mobs and wait for cooldowns to make the more challenging pulls a joke. You talk about wanting to overcome challenges but are advocating to make the game mode easier.

If you don't enjoy a game mode, then it's not for you. Just find something else to do. I don't enjoy PvP, I'm bad at it and it raises my adrenaline to crazy levels. Knowing when to I interrupt healers, when to cc, which player to focus fire first is just not something I enjoy. I would love the seasonal mounts but I will never be able to earn them on my own. I just stay away from PvP these days instead of advocating that blizzard take away the challenge from PvP to suit me.

[Nightstalker]

People will quit anyway once you try and brute force a +20 with 3 hours of wiping trash grp after trash grp. Playing bad should not be rewarded same goes for running against a wall.

[Rucati]

To continue your strawman arguement here, this means that all content that doesn't have a timer associated with it requires 0 skill. Mythic raids? Easy. The only hard content in the game, according to this train of logic, is Mythic+, and Visions, both major and minor.

Surely you can't be stupid enough to think that's what I meant, right? Which means you're trolling I guess? I don't even know.

Mythic key 20 would still be difficult, even not factoring in the time associated with it. I understand in theory what you were going for, you wouldn't want the lack of a timer to be meaningless. But 'no rewards' is not the way to go, nor is your reasoning for such a 'lower' risk taken here, either.

No, mythic 20 would not be difficult because you could literally do the entire dungeon one mob at a time and lust every boss or CC immune pull in the instance. It would be completely trivial unless you were so undergeared you got one shot by unavoidable mechanics.

The way I would handle it, is that there are two forms of mythic+ you could run. The timer based one, where you can upgrade your keys, and get (For the sake of what we have currently) GUARENTEED Titanforged gear (Ideally this means that Titanforging is no longer RNG based, just difficulty completion based), and Non-timer based Mythic+ works on who ever the leader of the group has completed highest key of THAT WEEK. You still need to run a timer based Mythic+ to unlock the other form, but if you need gear from +3 before going for a +4, you can farm +3s without toxicity involved.

That's just my thoughts on it, atleast.

This seems completely unnecessary. You can basically do this already by just not upgrading your key in the first place, pretty easy to bounce between +2s and +3s all night if you really want to farm low keys, not like it's particularly hard to do that.