So dumb ass ogres can be necromancers that revive dragons....

[Teriz]

[B]What? Warlocks never had sleep. Mages did...

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Dark_Apotheosis

[Rhaide]

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Dark_Apotheosis

Nope. Removed in WoD.

[Lolites]

Well it's a wow lore thing.. ogres are dumb sacks of shit unless some writer needs one to do something grand for an inexplicable reason then they are extremely smart and masters of the arcane, despite having a culture that does not lend itself to foster knowledge - like at all.

you should brush your lore knowledge, ogres lost more knowledge over time than other races ever had...
for example the proces to guarantee ogre baby to be born with heads, increasing its intelect and magical power...
they had a goddamn empire ruled by sorcerers...

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Just more proof that this game is in the dumpster. They refuse to give players what they want and constantly break the lore.

totaly, you should leave the game, forums included...

[Teriz]

Nope. Removed in WoD.

Ah got you. Fair point.

[Thage]

What about Demon Hunters? They joined the Horde and Alliance only to fight of the legion and now that Illidan is gone why would they still serve our factions?

Now that the Legion is defeated, they've turned their wrath on Azeroth's other enemies. Core mission remains the same, but they're less hyperspecialized against their new targets.

Warlocks practice an evil source of magic aswell and yet they are still around.

In all fairness, most warlocks operate in hiding. The few that operate openly do so as demonology experts working under the crown, or as mistrusted adventurers who exist on the fringes of society anyway. At one Blizzcon Q&A they mentioned that in-lore, warlocks rarely just cruise around Stormwind with their demons out since that would be a quick way to get the guards dogpiling you and taking you down through sheer numbers.

Some blood elves got kicked out of the Horde because they were practicing powers of the void and later became Void elves,so all Shadow Priests should get kicked out of the Horde then?

This is something of a misrepresentation. The blood elves that were experimenting with the Void were doing so before the blood elves joined the Horde, from what we can understand (at the very least, the exile took place before the end of the Ghostlands storyline while the blood elves were still limping along and trying to pick themselves up). Meanwhile, Alleria contacted them in the hopes of swaying them over to the Alliance so their knowledge of the Void could be used in the same way the factions used warlocks as demonology experts. During the unlock scenario, they were corrupted, and Alleria and Locus-Walker taught them to control the corruption. It's worth noting that there are both high elves and blood elves in the Rift learning the secrets of the Void after the unlock scenario, if you go back and visit the Rift as a void elf.

Shadow priests fill a similar niche. They're void experts that are tolerated because, by teetering on the edge of sanity, they can provide valuable insight into the void. The Horde has a longer history of tolerating shadow priests as troll witch doctors and the Forsaken clergy both generally fall under this banner, now that the Cult of the Forgotten Shadow has been reintegrated into the canon as of Legion.

But all that's tangential at best. The main reason we're not likely going to get Necromancer is the same reason we're not likely going to get Runemaster: Blizzard integrated most of the ideas they had for both into Death Knight when they decided Death Knight should be the hero class introduced in Wrath of the Lich King. And after taking Meta from Demo Warlocks and giving it to Demon Hunters caused... something of a backlash... I highly doubt they're going to repeat history and dismantle most of Unholy's kit to give it to Necromancers.

[Rhaide]

Ah got you. Fair point.

Thanks for pointing it out though - added a note to the post.

[Teriz]

Not in WoW it isn't. An imp and an undead caster would be the same pet. A succubus and an undead CC pet would be the same pet. A felhunter and an interrupt pet would be the same pet. A felguard and an undead melee pet would be the same pet.

A pet class is a pet class. The only difference is the type of damage dealt. Hunters cover physical, Warlocks cover magical. DKs cover undead minions. There is no space for Necromancy.

Necromancer proponents want a class that swarms their targets with skeleton warriors. That's what this entire thing breaks down to. You take that away, and yeah Necromancers would play EXACTLY like the existing Warlock class.

[Ielenia]

Well, in the lore, necromancy is outright banned by the Kirin Tor and they hunt down and kill anyone that practices necromancy. Necromancers have always been villains in Warcraft lore, unlike warlocks who actually had some heroes. I think the fact that they're evil is definitely a deterrent. Every single race on Azeroth has a reason to absolutely despise necromancers so it would make zero sense to introduce them as a playable class.

Can you name a single warlock hero that was created before the class was made playable? Or name a single event in where warlocks were portrayed in a good light before they became playable?

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Might as well. You're denying reality at this point,

No, you're just projecting and employing fallacies after fallacies.

Blizzard has made their stance on this crystal clear,

No, that is just your interpretation of what they say, since Blizzard never said exactly what you claim they did.

and my long response to this got deleted, so there's no point in continuing this "conversation".

To me, this just looks like you trying to bow out of a conversation you saw you have no leg to stand on. Especially since it was you who wanted to keep it going in the first place.

[Teriz]

To me, this just looks like you trying to bow out of a conversation you saw you have no leg to stand on. Especially since it was you who wanted to keep it going in the first place.

You deny reality, so that doesn't surprise me. In actuality, my entire response got deleted, and I have no desire to spend more time writing a multi-quote response to a poster who's main retort is "nu uh".

[Ielenia]

This is something of a misrepresentation. The blood elves that were experimenting with the Void were doing so before the blood elves joined the Horde, from what we can understand (at the very least, the exile took place before the end of the Ghostlands storyline while the blood elves were still limping along and trying to pick themselves up). Meanwhile, Alleria contacted them in the hopes of swaying them over to the Alliance so their knowledge of the Void could be used in the same way the factions used warlocks as demonology experts. During the unlock scenario, they were corrupted, and Alleria and Locus-Walker taught them to control the corruption. It's worth noting that there are both high elves and blood elves in the Rift learning the secrets of the Void after the unlock scenario, if you go back and visit the Rift as a void elf.

Actually, there were two groups of elves researching the void. First it was Dar'khan Drathir which happened before and during the Ghostlands storyline. And then we had Umbric who was banished from Silvermoon due to their research years later.

[iosdeveloper]

1. imagine necromancer in a china wow client
2. bad business idea
3. never happening
4.

[Ielenia]

You deny reality, so that doesn't surprise me.

Teriz, stop. Crying "you deny reality!" only makes you look a whiny, petulant child who didn't get their way.

I have no desire to spend more time writing a multi-quote response to a poster who's main retort is "nu uh".

My responses are way more than that, no matter how much you try to insist they aren't. Again, you look like a spoiled child who didn't get their way. Every time I responded to you, I explained everything: your fallacies, the faults in your arguments, your misinterpretations and misrepresentations.

Saying "you deny reality" and "you only say 'nuh-uh'" only make you look bad, Teriz. Not me. It makes you look like you're unable to hold a civil conversation when it doesn't go the way you want.

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1. imagine necromancer in a china wow client
2. bad business idea
3. never happening
4.

If the whole "skeleton/death" thing is such a deal-breaker... why do death knights exist in China?

[Hellobolis]

Death and undeath are the same. Necromancer is master of death magic.

always seemed more shadow than death based in warcraft to me, compared to other franchises.

and while death and undeath are part of the same sphere of influence in wow, theres a big difference between what them maldraxus guys do and what someone like the arbiter does. you could do a lot more by making a class focussed on the arbiter-level of death magic rather than one based on undeath magic.

[RangerDaz]

DKs don't fit the necromancer niche at all

Unholy DKs are armored necromancers.

Arthas, the original warcraft 3 death knight, controlled armies of undead that he raised from the dead.

If you don't want to acknowledge DKs are necromancers, thats your issue, but they are. They just aren't wearing robes and using staves.

[ro9ue]

Fun MMO-C Fact: 10,000 of each of Teriz's and Ielenia's post counts are just replies to each other.

[8bithamster]

Teriz, stop. Crying "you deny reality!" only makes you look a whiny, petulant child who didn't get their way.


My responses are way more than that, no matter how much you try to insist they aren't. Again, you look like a spoiled child who didn't get their way. Every time I responded to you, I explained everything: your fallacies, the faults in your arguments, your misinterpretations and misrepresentations.

Saying "you deny reality" and "you only say 'nuh-uh'" only make you look bad, Teriz. Not me. It makes you look like you're unable to hold a civil conversation when it doesn't go the way you want.

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If the whole "skeleton/death" thing is such a deal-breaker... why do death knights exist in China?

ignore "iosdeveloper".. it's just the usual anti China rant/rage with 0 factual basis.

[Moonoxx]

So what?We have shadow priest, and affliction warlock. Both "dot-based damage spec", and both exist without any issue. We have rogues, DHs and monks, "fast-paced mobile damage specs" and all exist without any issue. We have frost DK and frost mage, two "stun/slow-based damage specs" and both exist without any issue.

I feel like being the guy who goes ACTUALLY, so Shadow Priest and Affliction Warlock are not a good comparsion. Shadow's primary focus is their insanity system and prioritising primarily being in and maintain Voidform, whilst casting Mindblast, Mindflay and Voidbolt, which auto refreshes their secondary two dots. Affliction actually has to manually continue casting their assortment of DoT's through the fight, and their priority is on their DoT's, Shadowbolt is secondary.

ie Shadow prioritises and focuses on spamming channeled and cast time spells, and Affliction focuses on maintaning DoT's.

I know they're not very similar, not only because I've tried both, but because a long time Affliction Warlock friend of mine tried out Shadow Priest under the assumption it was mini-Affliction. Suffice it to say she found the gameplay completely different and not at all related to Affliction, and didn't like it.

Adding another class that focuses entirely on maintaning DoT's would be identical to Affliction Warlock more than Shadow Priest is. If Necro were going to be DoT'ish, it'd need to be different like Shadow Priest with its own unique resource system and spells to cast/channel, with DoT's just in the background of the kit. Otherwise you literally just have a reskinned Warlock, and other classes are not exactly reskinned versions of other classes. Although you may just end up with a reskinned Shadow Priest instead.

The other classes you mention as examples also don't play exactly the same way, and each have a different resource system at least to differentiate them. I think only DPS Warrior and DPS DH are similar with their ragey, fureyness? You can't just make Necromancer a class that maintains say 5 DoT's and has a filler. Cause that's identical to Affliction Warlock. Not similar, identical, and no other class is currently identical to another. XD

If you make them focus on having undead pets and swarming the enemy with skeletons, that's just an Unholy DK really, or a reskinned Demonlogy Warlock. I can't really see anything unique a Necromancer could do that Death Knight and Warlock don't already do. :S

p.s.

Although I main a Blood Death Knight which is where my main expertise is and I don't PvP much, just thought I'd also comment that I don't really consider Frost DK a "stun/slow" based spec. Frost Mage has dramatically more slows and stuns, unique cast in addintion to just passive effects of their main spells, and can't be compared to a Frost DK. A Frost DK's slow is not part of their primary rotation, so can't be spammed or applied indirectly the same way as a Mage, and they barely got any extra stuns/slows than Unholy/Blood. DK have the least slows and stuns, it's actually quite annoying, and the other melee have better or more slows and stuns available to them. XD

Hehe.

[Rekkis]

DKs don't fit the necromancer niche at all, just because they have undead pets as a small niche. Plate wearing melee characters aren't necromancy casters.

Demon summoning and undead summoning are entirely different, and there are plenty of games that have multiple pet classes that feel similar while still being different.

Hell, Dark age of camelot had 3 different versions of a necromancer in the same game and they ALL felt vastly different from each other. There is no way you can't make a demon summoner and an undead summoner feel different.

If you can't look at DAoC's Necromancer, bone dancer, and thaumetergist and see that every single one of them fills a "necromancer" sort of niche while also being very different from each other, I don't know what to say.

DAoC might have had three versions of the necromancer niche, but DAoC isn't currently filling your MMORPG niche.

[Not A Cat]

Why have necromancers when you can have Beanslingers? Undead minions are nothing compared to bean golems

OT: I still think it would be cool if unholy DK was a ranged caster that would be like a cool sword wielding, plate wearing necromancer

[matrix123mko]

Fun MMO-C Fact: 10,000 of each of Teriz's and Ielenia's post counts are just replies to each other.

Teriz is just Obelisk Kai. He is just hellbent on preventing cool stuff from being implemented.

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always seemed more shadow than death based in warcraft to me, compared to other franchises.

and while death and undeath are part of the same sphere of influence in wow, theres a big difference between what them maldraxus guys do and what someone like the arbiter does. you could do a lot more by making a class focussed on the arbiter-level of death magic rather than one based on undeath magic.

So you suggest that new necromancers should tap into Oribos instead of Maldraxxus. I wonder if it would empower them.