Shouldn't the Alliance have ousted Anduin or force him to abdicate at this point?

[Romanthony]

because just like how Thrall was Metzens golden Boy, Anduin is Christines Nothing bad can ever happen to him. I still think he should of been the boss in the Stormwind Vision corrupted b the void, due to his past of failures, the death of his father and so much guilt in his heart, due to being made high king despite his young age.... But nope hes a pure boy cant have him corrupted.

I would also like to say Why is he the high king of the Alliance wasnt there a Vote by all the leaders to Declare Varian the high king? Anduin shouldnt be high king just because of his father, The High king Role, is chosen by vote, not by birth.

[Terongor]

• Saved Garrosh from death
• Approved Tyrande's call to attack Silithus without any safety nets
• Freed a valueable high priority prisoner -> betrayal of public trust
• Didn't do much effort to save the people in Teldrassil -> why not call in more Hydromancers, Frost Mages, or even the Draenei?
• Attacked Lordaeron right away without safety nets (had to be saved three times by luck)
• Vowed to recover Teldrassil before the Fourth War is over -> Teldrassil is recovered without the help of Anduin or the "main" Alliance Army at all, just the soldiers from Gilneas and Night Elves
• Compared Daelin to Arthas (I know Daelin attacked unprovoked, but it's insensitive and insulting to the Kul Tirans who just recently rejoined the Alliance)
• Refused to hold even the most immediate aggressors accountable (Belmont, Eyegouge, Liadrin, whoever assaulted Brennadam)
• Anything else against the Westfall poor and hungry and homeless?

Why does Velen, Arechron, Vereesa, Mordent, Tyrande, Malfurion, Danath, Three Dwarf Rules, and Turalyon even have to bow down to a 20> year old person who has little to no leading experience? Even in the Battle of Lordaeron, Anduin didn't have any backup plan nor any safety nets and they were just lucky that Jaina arrived. At this point everyone should see that Anduin is a Horde lapdog and he might as well offer Mount Hyjal, Hinterlands, Winterspring, Feralas, and Felwood to the Horde to appease them further. The Alliance needs to have some actual development and more internal conflict to actually mature and the leaders should come to their senses to put someone of wisdom and experience instead to lead them: Tyrande, Velen, or Turalyon.

I don't care what happens to Genn if this happens, but seeing that he gave a middle finger to Anduin to help the Night Elves - it would appear that he would follow Tyrande over Anduin

1) Alliance agreed there should be a trial and anduin only kept to it and so did varian save Garrosh from death too.
2) In list of many idiotic military decision in wow.
3) taken that horde leadership abandoned saurfang who only at that point sought to die. A worthless prisoner.
4) again most military decisions in wow are idiotic.
5) They did own their own has more pressing concerns of the war was on.
6) Daelin start war of aggression with the goal of genocide its comperable to arthases war against life(arthas wanted to do a genocide to end all genocides)
7) Well.... they said only sylvanas had strong enough force militarical to oppose n'zoth meaning she alone was stronger than horde rebels and alliance.... so after sylvanas left most of them rejoined the horde meaning alliance wasn't in a position militarically to demand anything when n'zoth was closing in.

Velen respects Anduin too much as he taught him alot and seem to agree with anduin most cases and genn still sees anduin as surrogate son....
Heck even leader of sentinel armies disagree with tyrande.

[Wildberry]

To be fair Garrosh was attempting genocide. But of the forsaken. Which was why he would make them rush head first into the most fortified positions of Gilneas and forbid usage of certain weapons.

Objectively false. You're referring to a cherry picked a single line from "Edge of Night," divorced from all context.

"The door is wedged open; now it must be kicked down. This is what your kind is good for."

--"Edge of Night," p2

Alone, that's pretty damning. Fortunately, that's not the entirety of the statement, and you'd have to be extremely disingenuous to try and construct a point from that alone. Garrosh continues and says:

"You're already corpses, nearly impossible to kill..."

--"Edge of Night," p2

This is in conjunction with a passage from earlier in the story which reads:

"Forwar—" the marshal cried, his command cut short as a musketball shattered his lower jaw. ... The marshal toppled over, careening down a pile of rubble like a sack of cordwood, coming to rest in the thick mud below. ... Any normal man would've been dead for sure, but being that the marshal was already dead, he soon clawed his way up from the mud, spitting coagulated blood and ichor from the remains of his face.

--"Edge of Night," p2

For a scenario like breaching the Greymane Wall, the Forsaken are extremely useful, since shots that would kill the living only slow them down. That's not using them as fodder, that's using them where it makes sense to do so.

The whole meeting between himself and sylvanas in silverpine, he wasn't upset because of raising the dead in of itself. He was pissed that Sylvanas outsmarted him and his plans to wipe out the forsaken had failed.

[Citation needed]

[Aucald]

--- snip ---

However, in conjunction with Sylvanas' vision of a possible future where she was dead and Garrosh continued his war unabated or uncontested, the Forsaken are a defeated and depleted people facing certain death at the hands of the enemies massed around them. Garrosh doesn't care about the Forsaken - he shows that at Gilneas, seeing them only as weapons that are of use to him. This usage will eventually leave them depleted and since they're unable to replenish their numbers normally, it will lead inexorably to their extinction as a people.

[Soon-TM]

Swinging at a tank doesn't exactly demonstrate any kind of swordsmanship.

Sure it doesn't

[Ardenaso]

So a mega murderous bitch is on the loose and is limbering up to tear Azeroth a new asshole to the afterlife and people still got hard dicks about wanting Anduin to get fucked on.....ok I guess.

No, there's nothing wrong with Anduin. He's just a young Prince who was thrust into the position of leadership before he was fully prepared. He's improving all the time. I like him. I fully understand Tyrande's impatience with him though. As a Night Elf player, I would have liked to have seen stronger retaliation but it may not have been a smart move and may have been exactly what Sylvanas wanted.

He’s the golden king of the alliance we essentially watched grow like a potted plant, leader of the Humans and the son of Varian. The guy can do whatever the hell he wants. Which is a good thing since he’s in fact a good man.

In fact most of your complaints about Anduin seem to stem from the lack of depth in the writing. Having contingencies in sieges and such is something that would be in a thick fantasy novel in a caliber all of its own above Warcraft.

No I don't want Anduin to receive the Jaina/Garrosh treatment. I want the other Alliance Leaders to stop licking his boots and take the throne of the High King from him. Maybe that way he'd get some actual character development

Why kick Anduin? Things went exactly the way he wanted, the war is over, there is some sort of relative peace between the factions, Sylvanas is no longer warchief. He freed poor Saurfang who sacrificed himself to avoid unnecessary bloodshed. He lost the support of the Night Elves, but focusing on the war was the right choice. He couldn't know Sylvanas allied herself with Azhara. A very Alliance friendly queen rules the Forsaken. Who could have done it better? He proved more than anything that he deserves his crown.

Again freeing Saurfang is still betrayal of public trust. Also the Night Elves, Gilneans, and Kul Tirans aren't too happy at the end of the war.

Velen respects Anduin too much as he taught him alot and seem to agree with anduin most cases and genn still sees anduin as surrogate son....
Heck even leader of sentinel armies disagree with tyrande.

Velen is also wack he didn't bother to send official support from Azuremyst to Darkshore/Ashenvale nor did he send some of his Draenei who were once refugees too in Night Elven lands to Darkshore, it's almost as if he didn't exist in BFA.

Genn's middle finger to Anduin when he sent all of his army to Darkshore and when he agrees with Tyrande at her ending speech will speak otherwise eventually.

[Wildberry]

However, in conjunction with Sylvanas' vision of a possible future where she was dead and Garrosh continued his war unabated or uncontested, the Forsaken are a defeated and depleted people facing certain death at the hands of the enemies massed around them. Garrosh doesn't care about the Forsaken - he shows that at Gilneas, seeing them only as weapons that are of use to him. This usage will eventually leave them depleted and since they're unable to replenish their numbers normally, it will lead inexorably to their extinction as a people.

I mean, I could go on about visions of the future experienced by individuals outside the Bronze Dragonflight, and how they're consistently shown to be uncertain. Or point out the fact that the Val'kyr had a motivation to show Sylvanas a vision of a specific possibility of the future, rather than the future, but I really don't think that's necessary here. All that needs to be said is:

This isn't proof of intent for genocide, like the poster I was responding to claimed. Callous? Sure. Genocidal? No.

[Shiza]

No no no. The orcs, before they were part of the Horde and while under the influence of demon's blood, genocided the draenei. If you're going to count that then Garithos and Arthas better count as people who committed genocide as part of the Alliance.

Theramore doesn't count as genocide as much as Taurajo doesn't. It was the Alliance's largest military naval base and therefore a legitimate target. The goal wasn't to eradicate humans but to cripple their navy, thus not fitting the criteria for genocide.

And I explained in my last post why the night elves don't fit the criteria of genocide. Genocide requires the deliberate and systematic eradication of an entire people, culture, or creed. The examples you gave don't fit that criteria other than the draenei but you can't attribute that to the Horde because it was done before the Horde even formed on Azeroth.

And if we're gonna talk about war crimes, the Alliance has committed their fair share as well but once again, the Alliance is allowed to do whatever they want and be justified in doing it.

Nobody cares about your fanfiction.

[Spiffums]

• Didn't do much effort to save the people in Teldrassil -> why not call in more Hydromancers, Frost Mages, or even the Draenei?
  

Well their racial leader didn't put in much effort to save them either so I'll give him a pass on that one. Seriously High Priestess of Elune sends a random rogue/DK/warlock/whatever to try to save her people while she tends to her boyfriend. And then Mal isn't even pissed that she left thousands of innocent people die just to save him?

[Aucald]

I mean, I could go on about visions of the future experienced by individuals outside the Bronze Dragonflight, and how they're consistently shown to be uncertain. Or point out the fact that the Val'kyr had a motivation to show Sylvanas a vision of a specific possibility of the future, rather than the future, but I really don't think that's necessary here. All that needs to be said is:

This isn't proof of intent for genocide, like the poster I was responding to claimed. Callous? Sure. Genocidal? No.

I don't know if I'd call it "genocide," either; but I think Garrosh's demonstrated lack of care for his own people goes well beyond "callous." It's an almost inhuman disregard for their welfare (and I mean inhuman in the real world sense). It doesn't stop with the Forsaken, either, as SoO bears out with the horrifically mutated grunts due to his use of Old God power. I think it's pretty conclusive that a future for the Horde with Garrosh at the helm would've been a benighted horrorshow.

[Super Dickmann]

I don't know if I'd call it "genocide," either; but I think Garrosh's demonstrated lack of care for his own people goes well beyond "callous." It's an almost inhuman disregard for their welfare (and I mean inhuman in the real world sense). It doesn't stop with the Forsaken, either, as SoO bears out with the horrifically mutated grunts due to his use of Old God power. I think it's pretty conclusive that a future for the Horde with Garrosh at the helm would've been a benighted horrorshow.

It's mentioned that at least Malkorok volunteered, it's reasonable to assume the grunts did as well, it's just that some of them, like the Corrupted Skullsplitters didn't have the will to control the old god magic involved. You should note that most of the very last wing consist of Mag'har who are consistently Garrosh's closest circle and they are using the powers of Y'shaarj in a similar fashion to how Garrosh did. They're not mind-controlled.

Re: Garrosh and the Forsaken, I'd be the last to claim Garrosh liked the Forsaken or cared how many died provided the goal was achieved, but the latter portion is the important one. The worst you can accuse Garrosh of when it comes to the Gilneas venture is that it was poorly executed and would've failed because he wasn't playing to the strengths of those he was commanding - he could hype them up, but he couldn't get them to perform as effectively as they would under more important leadership. Hence why despite not trusting Sylvanas farther than he can throw her he still relinquishes command and achieve the goal he set her way.

[Jotaux]

Under Anduin, the horde and alliance conflict has ended and somehow managed to keep the Zandalari from seeking vengeance for straight up murdering their king when they weren't even involved in the war.

[Ardenaso]

Under Anduin, the horde and alliance conflict has ended and somehow managed to keep the Zandalari from seeking vengeance for straight up murdering their king when they weren't even involved in the war.

I don't think Talanji approves of the armistice. She wasn't even there

[Varodoc]

I don't think Talanji approves of the armistice. She wasn't even there

Talanj is free to complain about it, but no one cares.

[Soon-TM]

Talanj is free to complain about it, but no one cares.

Much like Tyrande, so far.

[Varodoc]

Much like Tyrande, so far.

Tyrande isn't even complaining anymore, she made a snarky remark in 8.3, but in Shadowlands she's having fun in Ardenweald chasing literally everyone but the Horde.

[Aucald]

It's mentioned that at least Malkorok volunteered, it's reasonable to assume the grunts did as well, it's just that some of them, like the Corrupted Skullsplitters didn't have the will to control the old god magic involved. You should note that most of the very last wing consist of Mag'har who are consistently Garrosh's closest circle and they are using the powers of Y'shaarj in a similar fashion to how Garrosh did. They're not mind-controlled.

Re: Garrosh and the Forsaken, I'd be the last to claim Garrosh liked the Forsaken or cared how many died provided the goal was achieved, but the latter portion is the important one. The worst you can accuse Garrosh of when it comes to the Gilneas venture is that it was poorly executed and would've failed because he wasn't playing to the strengths of those he was commanding - he could hype them up, but he couldn't get them to perform as effectively as they would under more important leadership. Hence why despite not trusting Sylvanas farther than he can throw her he still relinquishes command and achieve the goal he set her way.

That's less of a mitigating circumstance than I'd like - Malkorok was insane enough to agree, but Garrosh's use of the Sha at the Horde Shrine in the Vale shows that he wasn't going to just accept volunteers. We also don't know if the other grunts took in the Old God essence willingly, considering they are rampaging out of control and held in place by True Horde minders (only Malkorok seems more or less "stable" in his transformation). As for being "mind controlled," I don't think they are necessarily under any external control, but they're definitely twisted and insane (as Garrosh himself is).

I think it's pretty obvious that Garrosh's leadership would've been very deleterious to the Forsaken as a whole. Garrosh has nearly zero regard for them, and without strong leadership of their own he'd easily leave them to die in the wake of his mistakes.

[Super Dickmann]

That's less of a mitigating circumstance than I'd like - Malkorok was insane enough to agree, but Garrosh's use of the Sha at the Horde Shrine in the Vale shows that he wasn't going to just accept volunteers. We also don't know if the other grunts took in the Old God essence willingly, considering they are rampaging out of control and held in place by True Horde minders (only Malkorok seems more or less "stable" in his transformation). As for being "mind controlled," I don't think they are necessarily under any external control, but they're definitely twisted and insane (as Garrosh himself is).

I think it's pretty obvious that Garrosh's leadership would've been very deleterious to the Forsaken as a whole. Garrosh has nearly zero regard for them, and without strong leadership of their own he'd easily leave them to die in the wake of his mistakes.

There is a case to be made that they willingly accepted but weren't fit for it, like Ishi. We know from shadow priests and void elves that controlling the void takes a lot of willpower and average dudes aren't exactly exemplars of that. To accept the void doesn't mean you'd succeed with overcoming it. The Harbingers of Y'shaarj and the dudes with void axes in the tunnel leading into the throne room are also in control of it in a similar fashion to Garrosh.

That's true, if this had gone on, they'd have died and failed to take Gilneas and Garrosh would've failed to nab it. Hence why he was turned over to do it. Destroying the Forsaken was a price he was willing to pay, it was not an objective. They were abhorrent to his beliefs and those of many in the Horde for fairly obvious reasons given how after Wrathgate what the R.A.S. did was public info.

[Terongor]

No I don't want Anduin to receive the Jaina/Garrosh treatment. I want the other Alliance Leaders to stop licking his boots and take the throne of the High King from him. Maybe that way he'd get some actual character development



Again freeing Saurfang is still betrayal of public trust. Also the Night Elves, Gilneans, and Kul Tirans aren't too happy at the end of the war.



Velen is also wack he didn't bother to send official support from Azuremyst to Darkshore/Ashenvale nor did he send some of his Draenei who were once refugees too in Night Elven lands to Darkshore, it's almost as if he didn't exist in BFA.

Genn's middle finger to Anduin when he sent all of his army to Darkshore and when he agrees with Tyrande at her ending speech will speak otherwise eventually.

Well did exist in bfa he just is as passive as always if its not the legion.

Whats this eventually? So you know blizz will take genn into that direction? Anduins is pratically the alliance protagonist heck bfa prequal novel and shadowlands prequal novel anduin is playing a major part heck even wod prequal novel he played bigger part than any other alliance character while making tyrande one antagonists of book while garrosh was only villain.

[Aleksej89]

Both varian and anduin have done so much against the interest of their own people that they both would be hanged a long time ago.