The Silver Hand in Orgrimmar

[Koryn123]

"Not Really." Not really what? Nothing you just said countered anything I said, or really had anything to do with what I said. Lady Liadrin pledges the Blood Knights support to the Silver Hand. They became a faction within the faction. She becomes the second champion you recruit as the Highlord of the reformed Silver Hand. Which means she is an acting agent of the Silver Hand.

As far as what you said... while Fordring merged what was left of the then Silver Hand and Argent Dawn to create the Argent Crusade at the beginning of Wrath of the Lich King, it was a separate entity that maintained many members who were NOT Paladins. The Silver Hand membership is entirely Paladin based. Argent Crusade did not cease to exist when it reformed. Just some of it's members re-entered the fold.

So, again, not sure how your statement disagrees with mine at all.

Seems like most of them just went their separate ways after Legion, as it should be. Blood Knights and Sunwalkers shouldn't be running around with human paladins. And troll witch doctors should not be hanging out with draenei and naaru. That was stupid.

[Manariel]

The banner has been changed : https://twitter.com/TheRedShirtGuy/s...65872872624133

[elbleuet]

The banner has been changed : https://twitter.com/TheRedShirtGuy/s...65872872624133

A logical change. I'm glad the Silver Hand remains an Alliance thing.

[Ardenaso]

A logical change. I'm glad the Silver Hand remains an Alliance thing.

The banner has been changed : https://twitter.com/TheRedShirtGuy/s...65872872624133

They could've also added an Argent Dawn/Crusade banner too. Sad.

[naeblis495]

Good , now we hope it stay that way .

[Ardenaso]

Seems like most of them just went their separate ways after Legion, as it should be. Blood Knights and Sunwalkers shouldn't be running around with human paladins. And troll witch doctors should not be hanging out with draenei and naaru. That was stupid.

A logical change. I'm glad the Silver Hand remains an Alliance thing.

They could've also added an Argent Dawn/Crusade banner too. Sad.

The banner has been changed : https://twitter.com/TheRedShirtGuy/s...65872872624133

Good , now we hope it stay that way .

Don't really feel like starting yet another thread, so... would you guys fancy a "Dalaran" for Priests and Paladins? Hearthglen, and all of Eastweald would be neutral Argent Dawn/Crusade territories ruled by either Calia Menethil or Lord Maxwell Tyrosus. Since Calia doesn't want to be either Alliance or Horde then the best way for her to go is to be just another Khadgar/Rhonin.

[Koryn123]

Don't really feel like starting yet another thread, so... would you guys fancy a "Dalaran" for Priests and Paladins? Hearthglen, and all of Eastweald would be neutral Argent Dawn/Crusade territories ruled by either Calia Menethil or Lord Maxwell Tyrosus. Since Calia doesn't want to be either Alliance or Horde then the best way for her to go is to be just another Khadgar/Rhonin.

I'd really rather they keep their own identities and not be homogenized into one singular class fantasy. That was what set Blood Knights apart from paladins in BC. They had such a unique experience and unique approach to it, and it was refreshing to get to play objectively evil actions for once and have the characters not care what anyone thinks of them. This is a feeling that would be repeated in the Death Knight starting zone and nowhere else, especially not the Demon Hunter starting zone.

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The banner has been changed : https://twitter.com/TheRedShirtGuy/s...65872872624133

Now all we need is for the trainer to wear the blood knight uniform and not generic lame Silver Hand gear. Get rid of the Silver Hand hammer and look around the Hall of Blood in Silvermoon for inspiration.

[Ardenaso]

I'd really rather they keep their own identities and not be homogenized into one singular class fantasy. That was what set Blood Knights apart from paladins in BC. They had such a unique experience and unique approach to it, and it was refreshing to get to play objectively evil actions for once and have the characters not care what anyone thinks of them. This is a feeling that would be repeated in the Death Knight starting zone and nowhere else, especially not the Demon Hunter starting zone.

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Now all we need is for the trainer to wear the blood knight uniform and not generic lame Silver Hand gear. Get rid of the Silver Hand hammer and look around the Hall of Blood in Silvermoon for inspiration.

That won't really remove their identities; my idea was just a neutral hub like Dalaran where Priests/Paladins can centralize and archive their knowledge of the Light to Stratholme.

At first I got the impression that that Paladin NPC was one of those High Elves who reintegrated with the Blood Elves in service of the Horde

[Koryn123]

That won't really remove their identities; my idea was just a neutral hub like Dalaran where Priests/Paladins can centralize and archive their knowledge of the Light to Stratholme.

At first I got the impression that that Paladin NPC was one of those High Elves who reintegrated with the Blood Elves in service of the Horde

The reason I said that was because lorewise, a troll who worships a loa that gives him dark shadow powers is lorewise not at all like a draenei priest who worships a naaru. There's no reason why the draenei in the priest order hall would say "Wait! We need to go and pick up the troll witch doctors. They are close enough to us and the Naaru that they are essential to our operation."

That's a purely gameplay-driven story choice and really breaks the immersion of your race/class combination fantasy. The only troll I could see going to the draenei order hall is Zabra Hexx who took refuge in the Scarlet Monastery before it was taken over by them, read the books there, and converted to worshipping the actual Light.

It'd be like if in Legion, you suddenly stop the action and say "wait! The Zandalari have fighters who wield Light-like powers given to them by their loa! They're not really paladins, but for the sake of gameplay, they use paladin abilities. We need them to join the Silver Hand!"

The order halls really only work well for a few races. It would've been better from a story perspective if there were Faction-Class halls where Horde and Alliance got their own for each class, except death knights and demon hunters. That would've made more sense because they could be more varied. It's a lot easier to find something that suits all Horde priests and another that suits all Alliance priests than one that suits all priests of all races.

[Ardenaso]

The reason I said that was because lorewise, a troll who worships a loa that gives him dark shadow powers is lorewise not at all like a draenei priest who worships a naaru. There's no reason why the draenei in the priest order hall would say "Wait! We need to go and pick up the troll witch doctors. They are close enough to us and the Naaru that they are essential to our operation."

That's a purely gameplay-driven story choice and really breaks the immersion of your race/class combination fantasy. The only troll I could see going to the draenei order hall is Zabra Hexx who took refuge in the Scarlet Monastery before it was taken over by them, read the books there, and converted to worshipping the actual Light.

It'd be like if in Legion, you suddenly stop the action and say "wait! The Zandalari have fighters who wield Light-like powers given to them by their loa! They're not really paladins, but for the sake of gameplay, they use paladin abilities. We need them to join the Silver Hand!"

The order halls really only work well for a few races. It would've been better from a story perspective if there were Faction-Class halls where Horde and Alliance got their own for each class, except death knights and demon hunters. That would've made more sense because they could be more varied. It's a lot easier to find something that suits all Horde priests and another that suits all Alliance priests than one that suits all priests of all races.

Fair enough. I was thinking of maybe make Zul'Mashar and whatever comes out of the Noxious Glade if restored as the "shadow priest/witch doctor/shadow hunter" district but that would be going to far.

[Koryn123]

Fair enough. I was thinking of maybe make Zul'Mashar and whatever comes out of the Noxious Glade if restored as the "shadow priest/witch doctor/shadow hunter" district but that would be going to far.

It would've been cool for Blizzard to simply utilize the class trainer location in your race's home city, that way human priests and paladins would have the Cathedral of Light, dwarf priests and paladins could have their spot in the Mystic Ward, blood elf paladins would have the Hall of Blood in SMC, etc.

The class order hall was a neat idea, but it only feels good for the race to whose race/class fantasy it is catered to. The naaru ship for priests was best suited for draenei priests. The Argent Dawn's Silver Hand basement was best for humans and dwarves. Mages for humans because what self-respecting proud Rommath-like blood elf mage would choose to work in Dalaran again, especially when they'd presumably have access to Magister's Terrace as their base, so close to the Sunwell? Not to mention an orc mage. Etc.

[Soon-TM]

The order halls really only work well for a few races. It would've been better from a story perspective if there were Faction-Class halls where Horde and Alliance got their own for each class, except death knights and demon hunters. That would've made more sense because they could be more varied. It's a lot easier to find something that suits all Horde priests and another that suits all Alliance priests than one that suits all priests of all races.

I agree that it would make sense for DHs and DKs not to have a faction-specific Class Hall, since they seem to have always been beyond, or rather above, the petty AvH stuff.

And in your example, a single Class Hall for Alliance priests would have been good enough, since all Alliance races worship the Light (although come BfA, waters do become muddier with KT and DI Priests, but still...). But when it comes to Horde priests, you have at least three clearly different faiths: Trolls, who follow some Loa, Forsaken, and their Cult of the Forgotten Shadow; and BEs, who more or less are still followers of the Holy Light. Mixing Voodoo imaginery with e.g. Light-based iconography... Might not be the best idea.

[Koryn123]

I agree that it would make sense for DHs and DKs not to have a faction-specific Class Hall, since they seem to have always been beyond, or rather above, the petty AvH stuff.

And in your example, a single Class Hall for Alliance priests would have been good enough, since all Alliance races worship the Light (although come BfA, waters do become muddier with KT and DI Priests, but still...). But when it comes to Horde priests, you have at least three clearly different faiths: Trolls, who follow some Loa, Forsaken, and their Cult of the Forgotten Shadow; and BEs, who more or less are still followers of the Holy Light. Mixing Voodoo imaginery with e.g. Light-based iconography... Might not be the best idea.

If I could wave a wand and make everything appropriate for the lore regardless of resources required to implement it, there would be a few different halls, assuming that they can go beyond faction barriers if the organization permits it. All Alliance races use "the Light" but their sources are different, and it could be argued that it's not technically the same deity or force that each race draws from.

Holy Light - Humans, Dwarves, Worgen, Draenei (with more direct assistance via the Naaru), Gnomes (though they don't seem to worship it, more using it out of practicality and for the sake of study), Forsaken, Blood Elves, Goblins(?)

Loa - Trolls

Elune - Night Elves, Nightborne (presumably)


There's also the matter that trolls seem to attribute any of their magical powers to their loa, with priests (witch doctors or priests in the sense that they're followers of a loa), shaman (hexxers/witch doctors), magi, and warlocks (apart from demon summoning).

It's just a big mess and would require a lot of mixing and matching. Needless to say, some race and class combos go better together than with others, and race/class combo fantasies such as witch doctors, hexxers, blood knights, prelates (the Zandalari paladins), etc. are funneled into the game as player options expressed through the same classes gameplay-wise, allowing players the freedom to give their own explanation for their character, if they're interested in that sort of thing.

I'm not a roleplayer anymore, but if I were, I'd definitely have my Blood Knight stay as edgy as possible, turning to Spell Breaker methods of arcane-augmented warrior abilities over holy-augmented ones if he had to, since Liadrin forbade just sucking Light from the Sunwell, despite there being no Naaru to hurt in the process anymore. I don't want him to be just another good little paladin with a strong sense of justice. Who was cooler: Arthas or Uther? I'd argue Arthas because he embodied the retribution aspect of paladins, springing to action and doing what needed to be done that no one else would, while Uther embodied a combination of protection and holy, more passive and reactionary. If my blood knight character needs to resort to other powers to embody retribution, then that's just what he'd have to do.

[Super Dickmann]

Good that they changed it, though I'd still have liked more Prelate + Sunwalker related stuff, since the nu-Blood Knights are the least Horde Horde paladins. Still, it's fine. Just switch the guy's outfit to be red and slap a tabard on him and you can carry on.

@Ardenaso

Dalaran should not be what it is, let alone adding more of it. The idea that all mages in setting gravitate around a city of humans, including the two elven races who's whole civilizations are/were based around giant wellsprings of arcane and have more time in their lives to master it is absurd on its face. It doesn't need to spread to other classes more than it already has.

[Koryn123]

Good that they changed it, though I'd still have liked more Prelate + Sunwalker related stuff, since the nu-Blood Knights are the least Horde Horde paladins. Still, it's fine. Just switch the guy's outfit to be red and slap a tabard on him and you can carry on.

@Ardenaso

Dalaran should not be what it is, let alone adding more of it. The idea that all mages in setting gravitate around a city of humans, including the two elven races who's whole civilizations are/were based around giant wellsprings of arcane and have more time in their lives to master it is absurd on its face. It doesn't need to spread to other classes more than it already has.

The Horde needs to do its own thing, magic-wise. Unfortunately for the Blood Elves, Blizz seems to have forgotten their magic history, and now that the Nightborne have been added, Blizzard seem to be like "FINALLY the Horde have a magic race."

[Super Dickmann]

The Horde needs to do its own thing, magic-wise. Unfortunately for the Blood Elves, Blizz seems to have forgotten their magic history, and now that the Nightborne have been added, Blizzard seem to be like "FINALLY the Horde have a magic race."

The Nightborne did nab that niche from them, since they're essentially just blood elves taken to the next level magic wise, complete with their storyline just being the TBC blood elf one except better executed if no less of a dead end in its ultimate conclusion. The Blood elves could conceivably be holy elves, but despite Liadrin constantly featuring there's been no real development on this. Fel, the original Blood Knights and even the blood magic thing with the anima golems are all in the bin meanwhile.

[Koryn123]

The Nightborne did nab that niche from them, since they're essentially just blood elves taken to the next level magic wise, complete with their storyline just being the TBC blood elf one except better executed if no less of a dead end in its ultimate conclusion. The Blood elves could conceivably be holy elves, but despite Liadrin constantly featuring there's been no real development on this. Fel, the original Blood Knights and even the blood magic thing with the anima golems are all in the bin meanwhile.

A real shame. Looking forward to BC servers to re-experience that side of the blood elves. Blizzard needs to do a reset, or a reshuffling, and re-do all starting zones to see where the races are at currently. What do they think about the recent conflicts, what are their current goals, what problems do they still face in their own areas, etc. Focusing the story on just the leaders of the factions leaves the entire world feeling completely bare with no development. Chris Metzen once said that the world itself is the main character of World of Warcraft, but they've forgotten that.

[Ardenaso]

Dalaran should not be what it is, let alone adding more of it. The idea that all mages in setting gravitate around a city of humans, including the two elven races who's whole civilizations are/were based around giant wellsprings of arcane and have more time in their lives to master it is absurd on its face. It doesn't need to spread to other classes more than it already has.

To be fair I just wanted excuses to keep Eastweald neutral like the Argent Dawn/Crusade recognizes both the Humans and Forsaken as rightful claimants of Lordaeron, and I thought making the three cities as Priest/Paladin hubs would help it

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Anyway, I kinda wanted to know more about the Argent Crusade post Legion, the neutral human in Stratholme isn't helping much like I kinda wanted him to say about how's the Argent Crusade and how he feels about the Army of the Light, the Silver Hand, and the Hand of Argus infighting with the Sunwalkers and Blood Knights

An Argent Crusade banner in Orgrimmar wouldn't hurt like add a Blood Elf or Orc with an Argent Dawn/Crusade tabard

[Super Dickmann]

To be fair I just wanted excuses to keep Eastweald neutral like the Argent Dawn/Crusade recognizes both the Humans and Forsaken as rightful claimants of Lordaeron, and I thought making the three cities as Priest/Paladin hubs would help it

Lordaeron belongs to the Forsaken, always and forever Partisanship aside, that shouldn't be based on classes at all, but factional affiliation. The Forsaken being as broken as they are and their general conduct should be the go-ahead for serious movements by the Brotherhood of Light to take over Lordaeron and begin clearing places like Andorhal, whereas the Argent Crusade would be reaching out to them to turn it into a shared protectorate.

The impression I get from Legion, mind, is that the Argent Crusade broke at the Broken Shore (hurhur), and the Silver Hand sprang from the remains on the backs of the factional paladins. So even more of a reason for the more militant, yet more defined Brotherhood of the Light to take precedence.

[Koryn123]

Lordaeron belongs to the Forsaken, always and forever Partisanship aside, that shouldn't be based on classes at all, but factional affiliation. The Forsaken being as broken as they are and their general conduct should be the go-ahead for serious movements by the Brotherhood of Light to take over Lordaeron and begin clearing places like Andorhal, whereas the Argent Crusade would be reaching out to them to turn it into a shared protectorate.

The impression I get from Legion, mind, is that the Argent Crusade broke at the Broken Shore (hurhur), and the Silver Hand sprang from the remains on the backs of the factional paladins. So even more of a reason for the more militant, yet more defined Brotherhood of the Light to take precedence.

I like that idea a lot. The Argent Dawn and Crusade were too nice. Brotherhood of the Light seems more like a not evil Scarlet Crusade. Willing to go further to get the job done, but not so far that they're made villains. The Alliance needs more of that edge. I'd like to see them as a faction helped by the Alliance in clearing out the Forsaken, but they make it clear they have no interest in fighting the Horde as a whole, just the Forsaken for what they've done and the continued threat they pose to the living of all races as long as they have the Royal Apothecary Society.