How can loot even work without warforging/similar systems?

[Laughingjack]

It worked fine till MoP. It will work again.

It is more or less the story of " If you give a mouse a cookie..." There is going to be heavy back lash as we slowly head towards a normal power progression model again.

[wraysbury]

Why would you need loot to keep the incentive to play pve content? Surely you play it because it's a fun and rewarding experience by itself, and not only for the random icon added to your inventory at the end?

[naeblis495]

The exact same way it worked before that half performed abortion called "whateverthehell-forging" was unleashed upon these lands : perfectly fine

[Kralljin]

TF/WF was likely a response to the reduction in incoming players, to entice raiders to continue raiding longer.

It wasn't.
The primary goal of Thunderforging was that people still had a chance to get some upgrades from earlier bosses to get a boost to kill more difficult bosses.
And to provide a small incentive for 25man raiding, as the chance for Thunderforging was higher there.

This new item designation is being added for a couple reasons, but first and foremost to make loot drops more interesting overall, especially after you have earlier bosses in Throne of Thunder on farm. As you’re working on progression, those first few bosses can now continue to provide a chance at upgrades, making repeated kills potentially more exciting and rewarding. Those additional upgrades can then help to slowly raise power, and boost you over whatever progression roadblock you may hit.

https://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/...nges-patch-52/

Ion even referenced this when they announced its removal, that War / Titanforging and Corruption was essentially just attempting to solve selfmade problems, as the effect of not getting any upgrades pretty quickly from bosses was mostly caused by Blizzard increasing the amount of loot that bosses dropped.
He also straight up said that it didn't have anything to do with "chasing the carrot on a stick".

[Schattenlied]

The same way it did for a decade before they were added?

[dcc626]

You get your BiS for the tier -> you quit till next 0.X

People asked for this.

or, as ion already said, there will just be less loot overall. there is way too many ways to get loot. i have a feeling that will change quite a bit.

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I expect this forum to go 180 degrees within 6 months of SL and the "Loot is boring, I miss TF / WF etc" crowd to become vocal in creating threads instead of answering in "WF / TF ruined the game, let loot be loot" crowd.

im waiting for the "it takes forever to gear up, i miss bfa" rhetoric that we will see next spring.

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Im really skeptical about it.

If droprates are low, people will eventually burn out entirely of game, nobody got time and desire to farm the same boss/dungeon over and over again hoping for that one piece to drop.

If droprates are medium, people will gear up fast enough and stop playing. I mean, this is a problem in non-tf world where you don't want to see instance X until next major patch limiting amount of content you can do to get any upgrade.

So at the beginning you will narrow down dungeons to 4-6 that gives you your bis. Then you will slowly eliminate dungeons to 1-2 and run only 2 dungeons for entire time.

another reason they wont let you reroll keys.

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It will be blissfull joy to finally have solid BiS list again.

yup. will only take most of a tier to get it. then you can do it all again.

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Low droprates in raids are no solution as you can farm Mythic+ over and over and over again....

Look at 8.3 I was nearly done with equipping before i even set foot in Mythic Nyalotha.

The only stuff i would nee is from the last two because they are a higher iLvl. An we have only 6 done so far.

Together with lower raid loot you would need a weekly loot cap from mythic+ which will feel shitty in itself.
Honestly i think this will be horribly boring in the end.

They will tune lootdrops down. But probably not that much. Everyone will be fully geared in 3 resets and than... well nothing for a few month. Great...

I get why people don't like TF or corruption gear. But even with corruption most people had everything they needed 1 month into the patch.

not low raid droprates. low droprates evertywhere. only 1 weekly box, not several. you wait, people are going to rage.

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The same way it always worked before all this nonsense began. You get your BIS and that's it. Freaking thank you. Endless casino RNG is a trash system. Glad it's dead.

might want to wait and see before you start cheering. if bis takes you 4 months and you go weeks between noticable upgrades, something tells me you wont be so excited about it.

[Steelcryo]

What I don't get is, they can tie rewards to ilvl, like they have with WQ, so why not tie warforging to that? You can only start war forging once you hit a certain item level? That way raiders and high M+ pushers will have an incentive to keep playing and running things for a chance of an upgrade without people moaning that someone running LFR is getting stupidly high ilvl gear. So they still get their advantage of gearing up faster than most people do, while other players can still get WF items, it'll just take longer for them to hit the requirement.

Sure there'd still be a few complaints, but it'd be a better system for most who had an issue with WF before.

[aceperson]

otherwise a lot of players would have been "done" and quit way too fast

here's the thing. IT'S OK TO FEEL LIKE YOU ARE DONE FOR A BIT!

seriously. people don't need to play the game every single day. forcing people to do that makes them burn out on the game and makes people start to hate it. letting people feel like they are done means they can take a break and come into a patch feeling fresh and ready to go. you ever notice a difference in your attitude when you start a new game and when 8.1/8.2/8.3 was about to come out but you were still grinding out the current patch because you felt like you need those numbers? that's a forced grind and hardly anyone enjoys those.

when people feel forced to play the game for longer than they normally would, they start to take notice of the generally slow content cycle of an mmo. the story takes 6 months to go anywhere and you are still doing what you were doing day one but with a lot less of the enjoyment. there is no need to suck the fun out of the game just for the sake of play time metrics and profit.

[Laughingjack]

Have you ever played cookie clicker?

A lot of players use that mentality with wow. So long as numbers go up no matter what they are doing or how little they engage with the game they don't care.

[Bigbazz]

Like it did in old WoW, you aimed towards a BIS set from a tier which you will almost definitely not get unless you're the master looter + you're lucky, by the time you're getting close to that point the new tier is out and you have a new list of items you want... It's not that difficult, we don't need endless loot and quite frankly that is why I ultimately stopped playing.

I didn't want to play WoW every single day, farm hundreds of M+ dungeons or do every loot world quest hoping for a lottery ticket, it's ridiculous. RNG, RNG, RNG... The start of Legion we had a Hunter who had 4 legendaries before I got my first, which was dogshit. And you're sitting there and your buddy across the room maybe he only got 1 too, but his one increases his DPS by 20% and you're stuck there with a ring that's a downgrade and that is bullshit. Imagine being benched because timmy got a better legendary, it's an over exaggeration but I'm sure some people did.

I've only even had a glimpse of BFA, but my Hunter alt just got a pair of legs that increases the crit benefit by 12%, my Paladin got a pair of boots that sends laserbeam ion cannons across the screen and destroys everything and my Warrior main gets a shitty mastery proc and some leech... I mean, RNG is not good, titanforging is not good.. Let people complete the game, every patch.

[Unlimited Power]

You do realize thunderforged items were originally introduced in ToT to incentivice 25man raiding over 10man raiding, right? 10man ToT only had a 10% chance to thunderforge loot while 25man had a 25% chance.

Besides, if warforging/titanforging is so necessary, how did raiding function from vanilla until MoP without it? Just fine. Bonusforging was never necessary, nor will it be moving forward.

Don't get me wrong, I never personally minded its existence as I only ever benefited from it, but let's be real. Raiding will absolutely not suffer if it's removed. Mythic+? Maybe, but then Blizzard seems perfectly fine with people not running content repeatedly once you already got the best loot you can get from it.

It's no secret that a lot of players play WoW "seasonally". A patch or expansion releases, the players play for maybe a month or two, promptly quit and come back when the next major content patch releases. They've said as much themselves and they're perfectly fine with it, even if you may not be fine with taking a break once the content you're interested in is no longer rewarding to you.

[SinR]

The same way it did before.

You got your BiS and rolled alts until the next raid comes out

[Eosia]

The same way it worked in Vanilla, Burning Crusade, Wrath of the Lich King, Cataclysm, and MoP Pre 5.2

[Yorimar]

I've been wondering the same thing and honestly I don't know what are the upsides of removing WF/corruption. Less drops is a solution? I'm so looking forward to go weeks without weapon upgrade at all...

"im so looking forward to go weeks without a 15+ ilvl weapon upgrade at all..." this never crossed your mind with WF/corruption? its basically the same

[kaminaris]

It worked then because there was enough new people flooding the game to replace people who left once they were "done". TF/WF was likely a response to the reduction in incoming players, to entice raiders to continue raiding longer.

People seem to forget we didn't need highways 300 years earlier, it "worked" without highways.
Nowadays? Rare loot chance and no hope of getting any upgrade will most likely simply dishearten people and let them leave earlier, for good maybe.

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The same way it worked in Vanilla, Burning Crusade, Wrath of the Lich King, Cataclysm, and MoP Pre 5.2

You guys really need to stop that argument because it actually works the opposite. It didn't work back then. Thats why player retention was terribad and only thing that kept sub number high was large influx of new players. Now that large influx is gone.

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"im so looking forward to go weeks without a 15+ ilvl weapon upgrade at all..." this never crossed your mind with WF/corruption? its basically the same

Weapons could not titanforge, they could be maximum of +10ilvls.

[Advent]

here's the thing. IT'S OK TO FEEL LIKE YOU ARE DONE FOR A BIT! And you can, just pick a point and stop.

seriously. people don't need to play the game every single day. forcing people to do that makes them burn out on the game and makes people start to hate it. letting people feel like they are done means they can take a break and come into a patch feeling fresh and ready to go. you ever notice a difference in your attitude when you start a new game and when 8.1/8.2/8.3 was about to come out but you were still grinding out the current patch because you felt like you need those numbers? that's a forced grind and hardly anyone enjoys those.

when people feel forced to play the game for longer than they normally would, they start to take notice of the generally slow content cycle of an mmo. the story takes 6 months to go anywhere and you are still doing what you were doing day one but with a lot less of the enjoyment. there is no need to suck the fun out of the game just for the sake of play time metrics and profit.

How many times are we going to have to say this? When you've reached a point that you're personally comfortable with, stop playing. Why is it that nobody seems to take any responsibility for their own play habits anymore? Pick an end point, and call it good. It's as simple as that. I do it in MMOs all the time, even this one. The difference with WT/TF/Corruption is that I got a chance to get a piece of gear that was good if I decided to keep playing, instead of getting bored and quitting for long periods of time. What happened to personal responsibility?

Have you ever played cookie clicker?

A lot of players use that mentality with wow. So long as numbers go up no matter what they are doing or how little they engage with the game they don't care.

The game has always been like that in my eyes. This has never been a game about high engagement or elite skill, not to a fair amount of people I suspect. I really don't understand why it needs to be, there are a lot of games out now that are tests of player skill, and MMOs generally aren't that.

[Beefhammer]

How many times are we going to have to say this? When you've reached a point that you're personally comfortable with, stop playing. Why is it that nobody seems to take any responsibility for their own play habits anymore? Pick an end point, and call it good. It's as simple as that. I do it in MMOs all the time, even this one. The difference with WT/TF/Corruption is that I got a chance to get a piece of gear that was good if I decided to keep playing, instead of getting bored and quitting for long periods of time. What happened to personal responsibility?



The game has always been like that in my eyes. This has never been a game about high engagement or elite skill, not to a fair amount of people I suspect. I really don't understand why it needs to be, there are a lot of games out now that are tests of player skill, and MMOs generally aren't that.

To some extent it has been a test of high skill on some level. But for the most part it's about knowing the dance and executing. Given the appropriate gear and adequate time to learn any group can clear mythic raids. Most people just don't care and there is nothing wrong with that. The people at or ear the top just need to realize it's not that great of a feat of skill.

To your first point, even Blizzard has encouraged players to stop paying and playing when they feel there is nothing left for them to do. If anyone is feeling forced to play it is on them and them alone.

[Echocho]

Just like it did before their introduction. You get way less loot so it'll take a lot longer to be "done".

In order for that to work though they need to lower the power of catch-up gear by A LOT. If you have heroic gear or higher, the catch-up gear needs to be lower iLvl than that in order for gear to have any value.

[Kendros]

We dont thats the problem, ppl want to get their "bis" from heroic and be done with gearing (even tho heroic gear is garbage) and jump to an alt and repeat because theire scared of stepping in mythic, or because they suck and now mythic raiders are screwd killing early bosses over and over for shit except advancing to the later bosses. Some feedback should never be listened. If you want to be done go play some single player game with an very obvious end.

[Saltysquidoon]

How many times are we going to have to say this? When you've reached a point that you're personally comfortable with, stop playing. Why is it that nobody seems to take any responsibility for their own play habits anymore? Pick an end point, and call it good. It's as simple as that. I do it in MMOs all the time, even this one. The difference with WT/TF/Corruption is that I got a chance to get a piece of gear that was good if I decided to keep playing, instead of getting bored and quitting for long periods of time. What happened to personal responsibility?

Old man yells at cloud

Im not going to presume to know why other people are against the system. I know in my case I take issue with a when a game made by multibillion dollar videogame company incorporating into said game (which is already borderline a skinner box) ideas taken from research conducted by gambling companies as a means to raise revenue. The weekly chest isn't an accident, it's a loot box, the large pool and lack of agency it gives players is an inducement to come back every week. WF/TF and sockets are the same to a lesser degree, corruption is to a greater degree, 'bonus rolls' look like literal slots.

It's not a matter of "In my day we walked uphill both ways to WoW and thanked blizzard for the privilege". It's more "maybe we need less overt psychological manipulation in the funtime machine".