The EU is the most successful political project ever

[Wilfire]

The original EU organization (ECSC) had a very simple goal: prevent endless continental wars between Germany and Frace. Since 1951, there hasn't been a single armed conflict between those countries.

By contrast, neither the USA nor Russia has made any attempt to resolve their endless proxy wars on an institutional level. It takes very mature politicians to realize that there's a fundamental factor that causes wars over and over again and take decisive steps to eliminate that factor once and for all.

Unfortunately, Trump, Biden and Putin are all assclowns who will continue to waste precious taxpayer money on endless armament races and proxy wars.

[Machismo]

The original EU organization (ECSC) had a very simple goal: prevent endless continental wars between Germany and Frace. Since 1951, there hasn't been a single armed conflict between those countries.

By contrast, neither the USA nor Russia has made any attempt to resolve their endless proxy wars on an institutional level. It takes very mature politicians to realize that there's a fundamental factor that causes wars over and over again and take decisive steps to eliminate that factor once and for all.

Unfortunately, Trump, Biden and Putin are all assclowns who will continue to waste precious taxpayer money on endless armament races and proxy wars.

Then, why did you literally post a thread to defend Trump... and whine about ad hominem attacks against him?

Now you want to call him an "assclown?"

You really should be more consistent in your messaging if you expect people to believe you.

[Wilfire]

Then, why did you literally post a thread to defend Trump... and whine about ad hominem attacks against him?

Now you want to call him an "assclown?"

You really should be more consistent in your messaging if you expect people to believe you.

Just because Trump is an assclown it doesn't mean that the people who criticize him aren't assclowns²

[Spectral]

It takes very mature politicians to realize that there's a fundamental factor that causes wars over and over again and take decisive steps to eliminate that factor once and for all.

That's quite the claim.

[Machismo]

Just because Trump is an assclown it doesn't mean that the people who criticize him aren't assclowns²

So, you are doing the exact same thing you whined that others are doing...

Do you want to admit to your hypocrisy, now?

[PC2]

War and not killing each other is a pretty low threshold for declaring success. Consistent and significant growth rates would be a better metric.

No, eu needs to actually become a proper union rather than member countries just doing what they want to. We need to have policies that aren't voluntary to follow and which applies to all the members. Like the v4 blocking measures, it shouldn't be tolerated.

How could you ever justify policies that are not voluntary to each country? I'm not sure if you are a teenager who is still learning about politics but consent and voluntary participation is the bedrock of good politics.

[Acidbaron]

How could you ever justify policies that are not voluntary to each country? I'm not sure if you are a teenager who is still learning about politics but consent and voluntary participation is the bedrock of good politics.

Belgium has made participation in elections mandatory by law, risking fines if you do not go out to vote and fully support this as it makes your democracy far more representative.

Only those wanting to manipulate the outcome in their favour go for voter suppression.

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How could you ever justify policies that are not voluntary to each country? I'm not sure if you are a teenager who is still learning about politics but consent and voluntary participation is the bedrock of good politics.

Belgium has made participation in elections mandatory by law, risking fines if you do not go out to vote and fully support this as it makes your democracy far more representative.

Only those wanting to manipulate the outcome in their favour go for voter suppression.

Also i would be more humble when it comes to accusing others of not knowing parts of politics, you are caught at least weekly on political concepts that are alien to you or lack understanding off.

[Calfredd]

Also i would be more humble when it comes to accusing others of not knowing parts of politics, you are caught at least weekly on political concepts that are alien to you or lack understanding off.

Careful, that's an Ad hominem. /s

[Wilfire]

War and not killing each other is a pretty low threshold for declaring success. Consistent and significant growth rates would be a better metric.

And yet the EU, unlike Russia, China and the USA, isn't constantly embroiled in foreign military adventures.

[PC2]

Belgium has made participation in elections mandatory by law, risking fines if you do not go out to vote and fully support this as it makes your democracy far more representative.

Only those wanting to manipulate the outcome in their favour go for voter suppression.

Also i would be more humble when it comes to accusing others of not knowing parts of politics, you are caught at least weekly on political concepts that are alien to you or lack understanding off.

That's wrong though to coerce people into voting. A person should only vote because they choose to do so without fear of punishment.

Careful, that's an Ad hominem. /s

No not unless you're saying someone is wrong for personal reasons or motive-based reasons. For example when it comes to young people they are never wrong because they are young but just because it takes time to learn about what causes policy to be justifiable. (E.g. voluntary consent)

[Acidbaron]

That's wrong though to coerce people into voting. A person should only vote because they choose to do so without fear of punishment.



No not unless you're saying someone is wrong for personal reasons or motive-based reasons. When it comes to young people they are never wrong because they are young but just because it takes time to learn about what causes policy to be justifiable. (E.g. voluntary consent)

Coerced, so following the law is a form of coercion to you? So you object to traffic laws or let's keep it simple why not get rid of schools, schools is a form of coercion by that definition.

In any case it cannot be disputed it makes the process more democratic and more representative.

[Dsonsion]

The original EU organization (ECSC) had a very simple goal: prevent endless continental wars between Germany and Frace. Since 1951, there hasn't been a single armed conflict between those countries.
(...)
It takes very mature politicians to realize that there's a fundamental factor that causes wars over and over again and take decisive steps to eliminate that factor once and for all.

The wars for expansion between the two countries were no longer necessary when Germany was allowed into the club of countries that share the exploitation pie between them. Remove the unequal exchange with Africa from the equation and see how things change.

[PC2]

Coerced, so following the law is a form of coercion to you? So you object to traffic laws or let's keep it simple why not get rid of schools, schools is a form of coercion by that definition.

In any case it cannot be disputed it makes the process more democratic and more representative.

Of course following the law can be coercive when it comes to positive actions. For example with vehicle and traffic laws if there was a law that said you had to buy a car or you have to drive X amount of times per year then that would be wrong and coercive.

why not get rid of schools, schools is a form of coercion by that definition.

I've already argued many times on this forum that school should be entirely voluntary.

[Shadowferal]

And yet the EU, unlike Russia, China and the USA, isn't constantly embroiled in foreign military adventures.

That's because they're too busy with internal dissension and disputes.

[Acidbaron]

Of course following the law can be coercive when it comes to positive actions. For example with vehicle and traffic laws if there was a law that said you had to buy a car and you have to drive at least once per year then that would be coercive.



I've already argued many times on this forum that school should be entirely voluntary.

Well if you argue that schools should be voluntary than i can understand why you don't want people to vote, not only do you want to silence the people you also wish to keep them uneducated so they wouldn't even protest about their position.

To each their own i suppose but i don't support oppression of the public, directly or indirectly. I personally am happy that children in my nation have to get educated, do you also support child labour if you don't support education as an obligation of the youth?


You are also free to explain how requiring people to participate in an election isn't a positive action, you may also explain how not voting is a positive action.

[PC2]

Well if you argue that schools should be voluntary than i can understand why you don't want people to vote, not only do you want to silence the people you also wish to keep them uneducated so they wouldn't even protest about their position.

To each their own i suppose but i don't support oppression of the public, directly or indirectly. I personally am happy that children in my nation have to get educated, do you also support child labour if you don't support education as an obligation of the youth?

Again no, my position has always been that every person should vote at every election cycle and kids should gain new knowledge every single day. However just because that is my opinion that doesn't mean I have the right to punish somebody who doesn't agree with me.

You are also free to explain how requiring people to participate in an election isn't a positive action,

Requiring someone to vote is about positive action... How is there any confusion here?

you may also explain how not voting is a positive action.

NOT doing something is not a positive action by definition. It would be a negative action because it involves the absence of a decision.

[Crispin]

No, eu needs to actually become a proper union rather than member countries just doing what they want to. We need to have policies that aren't voluntary to follow and which applies to all the members. Like the v4 blocking measures, it shouldn't be tolerated.

Your proposal would be the end for the EU.

[zealo]

Your proposal would be the end for the EU.

Yup.

The people of Europe are not quite mentally ready for federalism yet. The idea of a pan-European identity isn't strong enough for such to not backfire in on itself. It needs to be handled delicately, and not rushed prematurely. They're working on that with initiatives such as e.g Erasmus, but we're not quite there yet.

[Acidbaron]

Again no, my position has always been that every person should vote at every election cycle and kids should gain new knowledge every single day. However just because that is my opinion that doesn't mean I have the right to punish somebody who doesn't agree with me.



Requiring someone to vote is about positive action... How is there any confusion here?



NOT doing something is not a positive action by definition. It would be a negative action because it involves the absence of a decision.

Ah i see i must have misread that last bit, also if kids are to gain new knowledge they should be obligated to follow courses that are recognized by the private sector so that their degrees are worth something, so that means schools of other official institutes. Yet you consider that coercion but that's okay with you? Seems rather selective way to be opposed to something.

People can show up here sign in and not vote for a single party, coercion also remains a very loaded term to use here considering the negative image paired with that word.

[PC2]

Ah i see i must have misread that last bit, also if kids are to gain new knowledge they should be obligated to follow courses that are recognized by the private sector so that their degrees are worth something, so that means schools of other official institutes. Yet you consider that coercion but that's okay with you? Seems rather selective way to be opposed to something.

I think everyone has an "ethical obligation" to become educated but my only point is that it shouldn't be a "legal obligation" that involves any form of coercion or punishment. We may disagree here but since this is more of an EU thread we'll have to wait for an appropriate thread to go into it further.

People can show up here sign in and not vote for a single party.

Ah I see, that's not quite as bad as long as people can choose a "no vote" option on an electronic or mail-in ballot. I vote but I've never physically showed up to a voting location just because it seems like a waste of effort.