Potential Class Hype

[Teriz]

Do you have any evidence that playable Blood Elves couldn't be Tinkers?

You mean other than the fact that the
only examples you’ve e come up with are Blood Elves stationed inside a spaceship in Outland?

Nightborne Elves on Azeroth have multiple types of constructs and multiple artificer NPCs in their capitol. Nothing stops a starting player Nightborne from becoming an artificer in Suramar. There are no Blood Elves like your example in Silvermoon, much less all of Azeroth. Assumingly, a Blood Elf needs a naaru spaceship to pillage in order to have basic tech abilities.

That’s the point.

I actually have? I named you several NPCs, comments they make in the game as well as the example of the Vindicaar as well as the fact that Lightbound, who are an alternative Version of Draenor Draenei, produce similar technology as the Lightforged. You just ignored it. There is little reason to assume that Draenei are less proficient than Lightforged Draenei in terms of technology, considering how Draeneis were able to build a fully functionig space ship, a feat yet to be archieved by the technologically less proficient Gnomes, from scratch as the Exodar is still standing there and unchanged.

We’ve already established that the Lightforged can build mechs. So they qualify. Where’s your example if tech that would qualify the standard Draenei? And no, the Vindacaar isn’t evidence of it. Building the Vindacaar is not a class like concept. Piloting and building warframes are.

I don't think that he sounds like a Gnome, so that is just fully your subjective assumption.

I wasn’t the one who said he did. That would be the posters in that forum. He’s also inside a Gnome mech, so that supports the voice.

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Could be one of those gan'arg tinkerers. We never hear one talk, but its voice is high-pitched like gnomes.

I’m not aware of any gan’args piloting Gnome mechs, or any mech in general.

[Ielenia]

I’m not aware of any gan’args piloting Gnome mechs, or any mech in general.

Just because you have never seen one, does not mean they cannot. And, again, they're described as "smart and fast-thinking" and are the engineers of the Burning Legion. They are even "capable of inventing", which seems to be a big deal for you.

[saicam53]

Well... Considering Warcraft have never alluded to anything close to a bard I can't understand why people think bard would be a good fit.

Sure they have. There are leather set, Bard's boots, Bard's Trousers, Bard's Tunic, etc. There are also weapons/off hands that are instrument related.

There is also a NPC named Russell the Bard in Twilight Highlands, he also uses songs to cure people

You can even count the April Fools Joke they had a long while back before WoTLK came out.

Is there alot of mentioned of Bards in Warcraft? Not really, but you cant say "Never Alluded to anything close"

[Teriz]

Just because you have never seen one, does not mean they cannot. And, again, they're described as "smart and fast-thinking" and are the engineers of the Burning Legion. They are even "capable of inventing", which seems to be a big deal for you.

Yeah, let me know when you see one. Meanwhile. back to the original point, Capaticus definitely isn’t a Blood Elf, so moving on....

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Sure they have. There are leather set, Bard's boots, Bard's Trousers, Bard's Tunic, etc. There are also weapons/off hands that are instrument related.

There is also a NPC named Russell the Bard in Twilight Highlands, he also uses songs to cure people

You can even count the April Fools Joke they had a long while back before WoTLK came out.

Is there alot of mentioned of Bards in Warcraft? Not really, but you cant say "Never Alluded to anything close"

Yeah, that's not saying a lot.

Bards are in the Rogue order halls, so its safe to assume that Blizzard views Bards as a type of Rogue.

Beyond that, there's nothing a Bard can offer that isn't currently offered by existing classes.

[DotEleven]

Yeah, let me know when you see one. Meanwhile. back to the original point, Capaticus definitely isn’t a Blood Elf, so moving on....

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Yeah, that's not saying a lot.

Bards are in the Rogue order halls, so its safe to assume that Blizzard views Bards as a type of Rogue.

Beyond that, there's nothing a Bard can offer that isn't currently offered by existing classes.

Eh, Bards could have a unique theme (no one uses sound or music) while providing a completely different playstyle being much more supportive than any other class. If they went down the way of Forsaken World where their buffs were created from a combination of abilities instead of one, it would be very interesting.

[Teriz]

Eh, Bards could have a unique theme (no one uses sound or music) while providing a completely different playstyle being much more supportive than any other class. If they went down the way of Forsaken World where their buffs were created from a combination of abilities instead of one, it would be very interesting.

Okay, but how would a buff-bot class work in WoW terms of the role trinity?

[DotEleven]

Okay, but how would a buff-bot class work in WoW terms of the role trinity?

Well, it fits in them by the abilities that make the combinations to make the buff are damaging/healing abilities. It was a very interesting take.

The way it worked in Forsaken World was that I'd have a damage ability. This ability would create a C Chord. I had another one the made a D Chord. There was a healing ability that made an E Chord. You'd get others later on (but I never got to far in. Although Bard was interesting the game just wasn't great). For example on self-buff required 2 Cs and a D Chord. So, I'd use my attack that would create a C twice and a D once (in any order) and then I'd get the buff. (It kept up to like the last 4 chords to decide which combinations you've completed). It would do this for other buffs too.

By connecting your damage/healing abilities to create chords and having the combination of chords make your buffs you create the style of Bard most known to people (a supportive musician) while allowing him to be a part of the WoW Trinity of Tank/Heals/DPS

[Teriz]

Well, it fits in them by the abilities that make the combinations to make the buff are damaging/healing abilities. It was a very interesting take.

The way it worked in Forsaken World was that I'd have a damage ability. This ability would create a C Chord. I had another one the made a D Chord. There was a healing ability that made an E Chord. You'd get others later on (but I never got to far in. Although Bard was interesting the game just wasn't great). For example on self-buff required 2 Cs and a D Chord. So, I'd use my attack that would create a C twice and a D once (in any order) and then I'd get the buff. (It kept up to like the last 4 chords to decide which combinations you've completed). It would do this for other buffs too.

By connecting your damage/healing abilities to create chords and having the combination of chords make your buffs you create the style of Bard most known to people (a supportive musician) while allowing him to be a part of the WoW Trinity of Tank/Heals/DPS

I guess what I’m asking is how does that break down into 3 specs? Are they all going to be using chords? Also the way you’re describing it sounds like chords are a gateway to just doing standard abilities, wouldn’t most people just opt to play classes where they don’t have to do something before they’re allowed to do their standard ability?

[DotEleven]

I guess what I’m asking is how does that break down into 3 specs? Are they all going to be using chords? Also the way you’re describing it sounds like chords are a gateway to just doing standard abilities, wouldn’t most people just opt to play classes where they don’t have to do something before they’re allowed to do their standard ability?

Like I said, I'm basing this all off of an already done class. The way they had it broken down was "Water" "Wind" and "Light" Specs. Water was a more PvP oriented damage spec with access to strong slowing/CC. Wind was the damage spec that also provided strong party buffs. Light was the Healing spec.

And the Chords weren't a Gateway to standard abilities. Your standard abilities would generate the chords. So like the basic ones you started with were like "Chord of Water. Does X Damage, Produces a D Chord". Then with the correct combination of chords you'd cast a buff on either yourself or the party while using these abilities that also damage/heal. This makes it feel much more like you're actually playing a song as a bard instead of just pressing a button that says "Buff of X Song"

[Teriz]

Like I said, I'm basing this all off of an already done class. The way they had it broken down was "Water" "Wind" and "Light" Specs. Water was a more PvP oriented damage spec with access to strong slowing/CC. Wind was the damage spec that also provided strong party buffs. Light was the Healing spec.

And the Chords weren't a Gateway to standard abilities. Your standard abilities would generate the chords. So like the basic ones you started with were like "Chord of Water. Does X Damage, Produces a D Chord". Then with the correct combination of chords you'd cast a buff on either yourself or the party while using these abilities that also damage/heal. This makes it feel much more like you're actually playing a song as a bard instead of just pressing a button that says "Buff of X Song"

So let's say I casted fireball, it would give me a "D chord" then I'd have to do a combination of more chords in order to get the buff? What if I whiffed on the chord? Does that mean that I wouldn't get the buff, and then lose DPS/Benefit?

I suppose that could work more on the healing side of things, where you cast a heal that could produce a chord, and then you do the mini puzzle game and get a big buff boost to the party and to yourself. I could see people complain about it as being too hard, but I think its very novel and interesting.

If something like that was displayed within the WoW Bards that would be worth talking about. Unfortunately the WoW Bards displayed have only had rehashed Warrior and Priest abilities.

[Triceron]

https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Arcane_titan

https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Talk..._to_Illidan.3F

It also uses the same steam armor as the Gnom mekgineers.

Probably cuz TBC reused many assets.

The lore for Capacitus and Mechanar doesn't involve gnomes or gnomish engineering though. Its purely blood elf and draenei tech. Tinkers for Blood Elf and Draenei were seeded since the introduction of these races, Mechanar is just one of many sources that support this connection.

Blood Elf Tinkers were even present in the pen and paper RPGs, which were a source of lore back in the TBC era still. Thats how far back the connection goes.

[Ielenia]

Yeah, let me know when you see one.

I'll repeat what I said:

Just because you have never seen one, does not mean they cannot.

Meanwhile. back to the original point, Capaticus definitely isn’t a Blood Elf, so moving on....

And this is where, once again, you make your double-standards shine. There is no chance that the pilot within Capacitus could be a gan'arg, because you have never seen it, but the pilot within Capacitus is "definitely not a blood elf" despite you never having seen it.

[DotEleven]

So let's say I casted fireball, it would give me a "D chord" then I'd have to do a combination of more chords in order to get the buff? What if I whiffed on the chord? Does that mean that I wouldn't get the buff, and then lose DPS/Benefit?

I suppose that could work more on the healing side of things, where you cast a heal that could produce a chord, and then you do the mini puzzle game and get a big buff boost to the party and to yourself. I could see people complain about it as being too hard, but I think its very novel and interesting.

If something like that was displayed within the WoW Bards that would be worth talking about. Unfortunately the WoW Bards displayed have only had rehashed Warrior and Priest abilities.

By Whiffed do you mean miss or what? Because the thing is most smaller buffs were like 3 chords long and it would keep track of the last 4 chords you used. And although let's say the buff required a CCD combination, it doesn't matter what order it comes in. It could be CCD, CDC, DCC and it would still work either way. But It wouldn't just be one single spell that gives you a C Chord. That's the thing, like let's say Fireball does, but Pyroblast also gives 2 C chords but Frost Bolt gives you a D Chord. So you could either cast 2 Fireballs and a Frost Bolt or a Pyroblast and a Frost Bolt in any order to get the necessary combination to give the buff.

I mean, I will say I've seen plenty of people acknowledge how great the Forsaken World Bard is and have actually read accounts of people going back to play the game (despite how bad it is) just for it's Bard gameplay.

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I love how the "I HAVEN'T -SEEN- A HUMAN TINKER IN-GAME SO THEY CAN'T BE TINKERS" is a valid argument to you Teriz.

Like, my guy, WoW had also only seen Night Elven Demon Hunters... Until WoW saw Blood Elven Demon Hunters.

Warcraft hadn't seen a human druid either until Lucan Foxblood or whatever he's called became one.

Well, that's the thing. Up until that point you could make the argument that there were no Blood Elf Demon Hunters. So you could make the argument that there were only Night Elf Demon Hunters. Just like how until they changed it only Night Elf Males were Druids and Females were Priestesses.

Just because the lore NOW shows it, doesn't mean it previously did. That's called retconning and when it happens you acknowledge that the lore changed.

As of right now, there is no evidence of a human tinker. No one's seen one, so it's understandable to come to the conclusion there might not be/they lack the capability to be tinkers. Should a Human Tinker show up later on, it would be contrary to what we've known but it would then overtake it since new lore beats old lore.

Like Night Elf Paladins. There were no Night Elf Paladins. No one saw one in game. They didn't exist. Until the Paladin/Priest Class Hall Campaign that turned a Night Elf Priest into a Paladin.

[Teriz]

I love how the "I HAVEN'T -SEEN- A HUMAN TINKER IN-GAME SO THEY CAN'T BE TINKERS" is a valid argument to you Teriz.

Like, my guy, WoW had also only seen Night Elven Demon Hunters... Until WoW saw Blood Elven Demon Hunters.

Warcraft hadn't seen a human druid either until Lucan Foxblood or whatever he's called became one.

The thing is, Blood Elf demon hunters were established in TBC long before the DH class in Legion. There is no evidence of human Tinkers anywhere in WoW, and we started getting Tinkers seeded in a serious manner in MoP.

Your example of Foxblood also furthers my point; A wayward example of something in lore doesn’t mean that an entire race is open for a class.

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Probably cuz TBC reused many assets.

The lore for Capacitus and Mechanar doesn't involve gnomes or gnomish engineering though. Its purely blood elf and draenei tech. Tinkers for Blood Elf and Draenei were seeded since the introduction of these races, Mechanar is just one of many sources that support this connection.

Blood Elf Tinkers were even present in the pen and paper RPGs, which were a source of lore back in the TBC era still. Thats how far back the connection goes.

Is Capaticus even part of the Mechanar lore? Last I remembered, he was a special boss.

In any case, it’s using a Gnomish steam armor, and sounds like a Gnome. Further, we’ve never seen these themes repeated among the Blood Elf race proper on Azeroth. So yeah....

[Triceron]

Is Capaticus even part of the Mechanar lore? Last I remembered, he was a special boss.

In any case, it’s using a Gnomish steam armor, and sounds like a Gnome. Further, we’ve never seen these themes repeated among the Blood Elf race proper on Azeroth. So yeah....

So we have a case of Blood Elves or Draenei adapting Gnomish steam armor for use in Mechanar, without actually contracting any Gnomes if that's the case. Either explanation works and is a significant example of how Blood Elf and Draenei Tinkers are already connected in the world.

[TheRevenantHero]

The thing is, Blood Elf demon hunters were established in TBC long before the DH class in Legion. There is no evidence of human Tinkers anywhere in WoW, and we started getting Tinkers seeded in a serious manner in MoP.

Your example of Foxblood also furthers my point; A wayward example of something in lore doesn’t mean that an entire race is open for a class.

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Is Capaticus even part of the Mechanar lore? Last I remembered, he was a special boss.

In any case, it’s using a Gnomish steam armor, and sounds like a Gnome. Further, we’ve never seen these themes repeated among the Blood Elf race proper on Azeroth. So yeah....

According to everything I've found, Capaticus doesn't even have a pilot. He's listed as an "Arcane Titan" whatever the fuck that is. So there's a good chance he's just a talking robot with no pilot.

[Triceron]

Actually, doing some digging, it looks like Capacitus is a unique model that isn't shared by any other in the game. So for you to believe it was something the Gnomes would have made seems to be a pretty good indicator that the Blood Elves or Draenei are capable of creating mechs that fool you into thinking they were Gnomish tech, when in fact it was their own tech all along.

This answers Teriz' original question of how Blood Elf or Draenei tech could look like Gnomish or Goblin Tinker abilities. We have a precedence for them already having tech that does not source Gnomish Engineering at all, yet looks remarkably similar.

Since the only complaint against Blood Elves and Draenei Tinkers was their lack of coherency to Gnome and Goblin tech, I think what we have in Mechanar is a good missing link to dissuade that argument.

[Shiza]

You mean other than the fact that the
only examples you’ve e come up with are Blood Elves stationed inside a spaceship in Outland?

Nightborne Elves on Azeroth have multiple types of constructs and multiple artificer NPCs in their capitol. Nothing stops a starting player Nightborne from becoming an artificer in Suramar. There are no Blood Elves like your example in Silvermoon, much less all of Azeroth. Assumingly, a Blood Elf needs a naaru spaceship to pillage in order to have basic tech abilities.

That’s the point.

Blood Elves have also multiple constructs which seem extremely machine-like, considering that there is this joke since 2.3 that their programming still says Kael'thas and then there comes an error message. And we saw that Blood Elves are perfectly capable on focussing on technology when it is opportunistic for them. We also have the fact that Blood Elves are still manufacturing the manabomb. The burden is on you how they can't become Tinkers, which you fail to deliver, considering Blizzard normal modus operandi is to open up all races to new classes. The only exception was Demon Hunters where the story was highly restrictive and yet again, from a meta point of view, they were available to two races which combined make up one third of the population of the game. Does restricting a class to two of the absolute and with an incredible margin top three races of the game sound somehow similar to restricting a class to the least popular races of the game plus two allied races which are somewhat liked but require obnoxious steps in outdated content to unlock? This is yet again why Goblin fans are entitled without any proportion.

We have examples of nearly all races outside of Night Elves, Trolls and Tauren interacting and working with technology, so there is nothing stopping them from learning the Tinker profession at one point. The class is even more open in terms of concept to all races than the Monk who requires a Tauren or a Human picking up some foreign fighting style and religious concept they've never heard of before from a bunch of strange bear people who suddenly showed up and refuse to go. Or DKs which require a feral Worgen to somehow escape from shadowfang keep and then travel all the way to the eastern plaguelands, join the argent dawn and then be picked up by Arthas. Or Gnome DKs which requires a sense of cruelty and black humor he never displayed before or after ever again, because come on.

We’ve already established that the Lightforged can build mechs. So they qualify. Where’s your example if tech that would qualify the standard Draenei? And no, the Vindacaar isn’t evidence of it. Building the Vindacaar is not a class like concept. Piloting and building warframes are.

I mean, they are pretty much the same as with the Nightborn. They seem to have possessed constructs by far more advanced than Gnome ones considering how they can be piloted by souls, they have all kinds of hyper advanced war weapons and Yrels army was able to build exactly the same warframes as the Lightforged did. They have multiple Artificer npcs. I mean, that the Alliance is still using Gnome technology is kind of a plot hole, because looking at everything the Draenei build, it is redundant. What do the Gnomes build the Draenei can't do plain better, combined with their artificers being mighty eredar-like beasts you can bring to a battlefield?

[Teriz]

Actually, doing some digging, it looks like Capacitus is a unique model that isn't shared by any other in the game. So for you to believe it was something the Gnomes would have made seems to be a pretty good indicator that the Blood Elves or Draenei are capable of creating mechs that fool you into thinking they were Gnomish tech, when in fact it was their own tech all along.

This answers Teriz' original question of how Blood Elf or Draenei tech could look like Gnomish or Goblin Tinker abilities. We have a precedence for them already having tech that does not source Gnomish Engineering at all, yet looks remarkably similar.

Since the only complaint against Blood Elves and Draenei Tinkers was their lack of coherency to Gnome and Goblin tech, I think what we have in Mechanar is a good missing link to dissuade that argument.

That's false. Capitcus is simply a recolor of your standard (leper) Gnomish steam armor;



Keep the head canon rolling though. It's amusing.

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According to everything I've found, Capaticus doesn't even have a pilot. He's listed as an "Arcane Titan" whatever the fuck that is. So there's a good chance he's just a talking robot with no pilot.

Except he has a gnomish voice, and is inside Gnome armor.

[Teriz]

There’s also the Grinder which uses that exact same model and is controlled by a mechagnome, and one of his gang includes regular Gnomes.

https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/The_Grinder