Potential Class Hype

[Salvager23]

"Coulda/woulda/shoulda".

On top of that, HotS Gazlowe's turrets, from what I read, aren't "upgradable" either, at least not in any special way. It is "upgraded" in the way all heroes' abilities are also "upgraded": through leveling up, and talent picks. So that's not exactly something "new" that the skill would be doing in WoW, now would it? Because other classes' abilities are also "upgraded" in the same way: leveling up, and picking talents.

And going by logic, the Shaman totems are also "upgradable". I mean, look at the old talent tree, for example, from Classic and look how many talents "upgrade" your totems. Even current shaman has talents that "upgrade" some of their totems.

Wasn’t “coulda/shoulda/woulda” what you guys were arguing about?

Going by heroes’ talents, the turrets could slow/ hit multiple targets, could leave scrap, and can summon up to 4. As a long time Shaman player, that’s way different than anything searing totem did. Why wouldn’t that be different gameplay?

[FuxieDK]

I'm pretty sure, when talking about a poll, when we say "majority", we're talking about the people who voted, not everyone, overall.

But the poll, on purpose or not, prevents a lot of people to bo cent heir opinion.

Personally, I don't care about any of the 4 choices: I only care about NOT having any more classes in the game.

[Shiza]

Wasn’t “coulda/shoulda/woulda” what you guys were arguing about?

Going by heroes’ talents, the turrets could slow/ hit multiple targets, could leave scrap, and can summon up to 4. As a long time Shaman player, that’s way different than anything searing totem did. Why wouldn’t that be different gameplay?

Though why having Tinker to begin with if nobody would play it due to it being race restricted to Goblins and Gnomes, which is the only version of Tinkers we can discuss on this forum without being struck by pure, concentrated entitlement. Barely anybody plays Goblins and gnomes, they are gross and unpopular so Blizzard should rather creat new classes which fit popular races. Like Elves and Humans.

[Salvager23]

Though why having Tinker to begin with if nobody would play it due to it being race restricted to Goblins and Gnomes, which is the only version of Tinkers we can discuss on this forum without being struck by pure, concentrated entitlement. Barely anybody plays Goblins and gnomes, they are gross and unpopular so Blizzard should rather creat new classes which fit popular races. Like Elves and Humans.

I don't like race restricting classes. I think all races should be able to play all classes. Personally, I want a Nightborne Tinker.

[Shiza]

I don't like race restricting classes. I think all races should be able to play all classes. Personally, I want a Nightborne Tinker.

Yeah, we're not allowed to talk about this idea, due to a very specific outspoken user.

[Ielenia]

But the poll, on purpose or not, prevents a lot of people to bo cent heir opinion.

You don't have to voice your opinion every single time someone asks a question, especially if the question wasn't aimed at you. You may have a right to speak, but you don't have a right to be listened to.

Personally, I don't care about any of the 4 choices: I only care about NOT having any more classes in the game.

Cool. Then the question asked in the poll is not for you. You're not "required" to answer every poll you come across. Just move on.

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Wasn’t “coulda/shoulda/woulda” what you guys were arguing about?

Going by heroes’ talents, the turrets could slow/ hit multiple targets, could leave scrap, and can summon up to 4. As a long time Shaman player, that’s way different than anything searing totem did. Why wouldn’t that be different gameplay?

Again, you're going into specifics, which doesn't work because of the inherent genre differences between HotS and WoW. I can make a long, long list of things Warcraft characters can do in HotS, that they cannot in WoW. Uther, for example, turns into a ghost to heal people when he dies. Paladins don't do that in WoW.

[Salvager23]

Yeah, we're not allowed to talk about this idea, due to a very specific outspoken user.

Yeah, definitely a dumb idea to limit it to Goblins/Gnomes. I don’t get why he cares about that so much.

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Again, you're going into specifics, which doesn't work because of the inherent genre differences between HotS and WoW. I can make a long, long list of things Warcraft characters can do in HotS, that they cannot in WoW. Uther, for example, turns into a ghost to heal people when he dies. Paladins don't do that in WoW.

If Rick it turret becomes a class ability in WoW, wouldn’t there be a possibility that Blizzard would also bring over the upgrade talents and abilities? Why wouldn’t we consider that possibility if we’re talking about this ability? That’s all I’m saying. If those things are ported over, the turret is going to play nothing like searing totem.

[Shiza]

Yeah, definitely a dumb idea to limit it to Goblins/Gnomes. I don’t get why he cares about that so much.

Either some entitlement issue or to force himself into playing a Goblin or Gnome Tinker. He already expressed that he won't play them due to their height, which seems to be a real issue to him.

If Rick it turret becomes a class ability in WoW, wouldn’t there be a possibility that Blizzard would also bring over the upgrade talents and abilities? Why wouldn’t we consider that possibility if we’re talking about this ability? That’s all I’m saying. If those things are ported over, the turret is going to play nothing like searing totem.

It would play badly though, if it becomes something the spec revolves around. Turrets basically are dots which can be destroyed or a boss can move out of range of. Imagine a spec where your entire rotation is dedicated into empowering them to even start to do any decent damage and they can be at any moment be destroyed or boss movement can fuck it all over. This is why the idea is bad, Shadow Priest already proof how obnoxious high ramp up dot classes are.

[Salvager23]

Either some entitlement issue or to force himself into playing a Goblin or Gnome Tinker. He already expressed that he won't play them due to their height, which seems to be a real issue to him.



It would play badly though, if it becomes something the spec revolves around. Turrets basically are dots which can be destroyed or a boss can move out of range of. Imagine a spec where your entire rotation is dedicated into empowering them to even start to do any decent damage and they can be at any moment be destroyed or boss movement can fuck it all over. This is why the idea is bad, Shadow Priest already proof how obnoxious high ramp up dot classes are.

It could play very badly, or it could play just fine. I just don't get why if we're talking about a potential ability why we're ignoring all aspects of that ability from its source material.

[3liiil3]

I voted for Tinker, though hoping for no race restriction.

Vulpera Tinker

[FuxieDK]

You don't have to voice your opinion every single time someone asks a question, especially if the question wasn't aimed at you. You may have a right to speak, but you don't have a right to be listened to.


Cool. Then the question asked in the poll is not for you. You're not "required" to answer every poll you come across. Just move on.

Yes it is aimed at me (too) and my answer is NEITHER!

[Ielenia]

If Rick it turret becomes a class ability in WoW, wouldn’t there be a possibility that Blizzard would also bring over the upgrade talents and abilities? Why wouldn’t we consider that possibility if we’re talking about this ability? That’s all I’m saying. If those things are ported over, the turret is going to play nothing like searing totem.

One: it's not going to port over everything. Just a bit. Why don't you take a look at how Illidan abilities work in HotS, and then compare them to the playable demon hunter class. Did some abilities get 'ported over'? Yes. But did any of them get ported "as-is", with all the abilities and "upgrades"? No.

And let us make one thing clear: I'm not Teriz. I'm not saying that "Rock-It! Turret" would play "exactly" like Searing Totem does, if it brought into the game in playable form. I'm just arguing against this idea that the ability would be "unique" in any way, shape or form, because its mechanics already exist in other classes. Maybe it'll be "sorta unique" in the way it combines already existing mechanics, but "unique mechanics"? Not a chance.

The basis for "Rock-It! Turret" is a construct created by the player that automatically attacks a target in range. From that angle, the two are the same. Of course, just like all the other abilities in the game, there would be differences to the shaman's Searing Totem. But the thing is: none of those things would be "unique" and "never seen before" things.

This "it is upgradable" argument that Teriz loves to tout is nothing but his headcanon. Because the only "upgrades" you can do to the turrets in HotS are through leveling up and picking talents, which you can already do in the game for ALL classes. And I also call it "double-standards" because he refuses to allow the same courtesy to other people's class fan concepts.

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Yes it is aimed at me (too) and my answer is NEITHER!

No. You're wrong. Stop pretending this is about you. It's not aimed at you at all.

The thread (and poll) is about class hype. If you're not hyped about any class, then the poll and the thread are not for you.

You're like that sour kid who sees other kids excitedly discussing a topic you don't like, and you butt-in on their conversations and loudly proclaim, "Oh yeah! Well, I don't like it!!" as if your opinion is somehow "required" to exist in their discussion.

[Salvager23]

One: it's not going to port over everything. Just a bit. Why don't you take a look at how Illidan abilities work in HotS, and then compare them to the playable demon hunter class. Did some abilities get 'ported over'? Yes. But did any of them get ported "as-is", with all the abilities and "upgrades"? No.

And let us make one thing clear: I'm not Teriz. I'm not saying that "Rock-It! Turret" would play "exactly" like Searing Totem does, if it brought into the game in playable form. I'm just arguing against this idea that the ability would be "unique" in any way, shape or form, because its mechanics already exist in other classes. Maybe it'll be "sorta unique" in the way it combines already existing mechanics, but "unique mechanics"? Not a chance.

The basis for "Rock-It! Turret" is a construct created by the player that automatically attacks a target in range. From that angle, the two are the same. Of course, just like all the other abilities in the game, there would be differences to the shaman's Searing Totem. But the thing is: none of those things would be "unique" and "never seen before" things.

This "it is upgradable" argument that Teriz loves to tout is nothing but his headcanon. Because the only "upgrades" you can do to the turrets in HotS are through leveling up and picking talents, which you can already do in the game for ALL classes. And I also call it "double-standards" because he refuses to allow the same courtesy to other people's class fan concepts.

Okay, thank you for clarifying your position.

[jellmoo]

Brainstorming a bit on the idea of being able to "eject" from the mech to continue fighting. I'm not sure I like it, but it would definitely be interesting. Mechanically it does muddy the idea that the Mech is a form though and would seem to function more like a vehicle. There could be some technical limitations there.

That being said some random thoughts on it:

1) Does it make more sense for the pilot to continue on as a tank, or should it be viewed more like an aggro dump? In dungeons, that would be devasting, but in raids, it could actually be beneficial to be able to suddenly switch tanks like that.

2) If the pilot is also a functional tank, what trade offs would make sense? If the pilot outside of the mech is a perfectly viable tank on their own, it does create a unique balance issue. The three big items I can see being affected would be the ability to keep aggro, the ability to grab new aggro and/or taunt, and survivability. I think the key is to make sure that you don't overly punish other group members for a game mechanic.

3) How long should a pilot be without a mech? Should it be an automatic thing, like push a button and you get a new mech? Should you have to build "resources" in order to gain a new one?

4) Could a pilot outside of their mech play a game of "hot potato" with aggro as a means of handling it? Maybe have abilities that can dump aggro onto a summoned bot, or throw aggro to other party members temporarily in order to keep everyone alive until a new mech can be called?

5) What if a pilot kept all aggro but gained a shield upon ejecting. Then the pilot needs to build resources to summon a new mech. In this case, the shield starts at absorbing 100% of damage, but reduces by 10% every second. After 10 seconds the shielf is gone. In this case the party has to work towards building resources and keeping the pilot alive. Would this be too intensive on the group?

[Shiza]

Brainstorming a bit on the idea of being able to "eject" from the mech to continue fighting. I'm not sure I like it, but it would definitely be interesting. Mechanically it does muddy the idea that the Mech is a form though and would seem to function more like a vehicle. There could be some technical limitations there.

That being said some random thoughts on it:

1) Does it make more sense for the pilot to continue on as a tank, or should it be viewed more like an aggro dump? In dungeons, that would be devasting, but in raids, it could actually be beneficial to be able to suddenly switch tanks like that.

2) If the pilot is also a functional tank, what trade offs would make sense? If the pilot outside of the mech is a perfectly viable tank on their own, it does create a unique balance issue. The three big items I can see being affected would be the ability to keep aggro, the ability to grab new aggro and/or taunt, and survivability. I think the key is to make sure that you don't overly punish other group members for a game mechanic.

3) How long should a pilot be without a mech? Should it be an automatic thing, like push a button and you get a new mech? Should you have to build "resources" in order to gain a new one?

4) Could a pilot outside of their mech play a game of "hot potato" with aggro as a means of handling it? Maybe have abilities that can dump aggro onto a summoned bot, or throw aggro to other party members temporarily in order to keep everyone alive until a new mech can be called?

5) What if a pilot kept all aggro but gained a shield upon ejecting. Then the pilot needs to build resources to summon a new mech. In this case, the shield starts at absorbing 100% of damage, but reduces by 10% every second. After 10 seconds the shielf is gone. In this case the party has to work towards building resources and keeping the pilot alive. Would this be too intensive on the group?

It just doesn't work. It effectively means, the tank has 2 hp bars, which will mean that the class is either absolutely overpowered or that he has to make up for it by being too squishy. I mean, would you even have a tank with you who just randomly will shoot aggro at dps or healers and who you have to cater towards fully in terms of your playstyle just so that he can survive when you could just as well have a Paladin, Warrior, DK or Monk who can tank the dungeon with the dps players having to do nothing but the regular crowd control in mythic+ dungeons? I know certainly that I would reject any such Tinker Tank.

[Salvager23]

Brainstorming a bit on the idea of being able to "eject" from the mech to continue fighting. I'm not sure I like it, but it would definitely be interesting. Mechanically it does muddy the idea that the Mech is a form though and would seem to function more like a vehicle. There could be some technical limitations there.

That being said some random thoughts on it:

1) Does it make more sense for the pilot to continue on as a tank, or should it be viewed more like an aggro dump? In dungeons, that would be devasting, but in raids, it could actually be beneficial to be able to suddenly switch tanks like that.

2) If the pilot is also a functional tank, what trade offs would make sense? If the pilot outside of the mech is a perfectly viable tank on their own, it does create a unique balance issue. The three big items I can see being affected would be the ability to keep aggro, the ability to grab new aggro and/or taunt, and survivability. I think the key is to make sure that you don't overly punish other group members for a game mechanic.

3) How long should a pilot be without a mech? Should it be an automatic thing, like push a button and you get a new mech? Should you have to build "resources" in order to gain a new one?

4) Could a pilot outside of their mech play a game of "hot potato" with aggro as a means of handling it? Maybe have abilities that can dump aggro onto a summoned bot, or throw aggro to other party members temporarily in order to keep everyone alive until a new mech can be called?

5) What if a pilot kept all aggro but gained a shield upon ejecting. Then the pilot needs to build resources to summon a new mech. In this case, the shield starts at absorbing 100% of damage, but reduces by 10% every second. After 10 seconds the shielf is gone. In this case the party has to work towards building resources and keeping the pilot alive. Would this be too intensive on the group?

I liked the idea that if you lose the mech the pilot can still tank, but the difficulty ramps up. I really think that's fair, and doesn't overly punishes the group. Someone also suggested that healing the pilot (not overheals) could reduce the cooldown to resummon the mech. There has to be limits though, because if someone is just a masterful Tinker tank with those mechanics, they'll never die. Maybe upping the cooldown every time the mech is destroyed would be a good counterbalance?

[arkanon]

It just doesn't work. It effectively means, the tank has 2 hp bars, which will mean that the class is either absolutely overpowered or that he has to make up for it by being too squishy. I mean, would you even have a tank with you who just randomly will shoot aggro at dps or healers and who you have to cater towards fully in terms of your playstyle just so that he can survive when you could just as well have a Paladin, Warrior, DK or Monk who can tank the dungeon with the dps players having to do nothing but the regular crowd control in mythic+ dungeons? I know certainly that I would reject any such Tinker Tank.

Let's put it this way. To be competitive as a tank, the tinker would need to have the same EH as a another tank. If they drop out of the mech, they either need to be able remain just as effective, or, entirely useless like a druid, but able to switch back very quickly. Every bear has at some point shat themselves when tanking and accidentally swapping to caster form.

Now, if they are just as effective out of the mech, the mech is redundant other than "flavour". But more concerning, they would need to have less health both in mech and out, since they are otherwise not punished for losing the mech. This would NOT work, as healers would fucking hate it.

The only ways a mech suit works is A) it's perma, and contributes to your defence, but no hp bar or anything stupid. Or, it's a large CD, once per fight use, summon the mech, get op for 30 seconds, then it's gone.

[Ielenia]

Brainstorming a bit on the idea of being able to "eject" from the mech to continue fighting. I'm not sure I like it, but it would definitely be interesting. Mechanically it does muddy the idea that the Mech is a form though and would seem to function more like a vehicle. There could be some technical limitations there.

The idea I posited to Teriz, long ago, about "exiting the mech" would be by making the mech a temporary cooldown, like Metamorphosis and Ascendance. But since it doesn't fit his "mechs are a permanent form" idea of the tinkers, he rejected it.

I mean... don't you think it'd be rather unique for the mech to be temporary, and at the end of its duration, it "malfunctions" and explodes, dealing damage to all mobs around him as the pilot ejects? It's similar-ish to the DH mechanic, only dealing damage at the end instead of at the beginning. Another mechanic that could be added is the option to exit the mech and trigger the explosion prematurely, dealing more damage according to the amount of time left in the ability, explained by the "remaining fuel" being used to make the explosion more powerful? It could even eject the player like the hunter's Disengage ability does.

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I liked the idea that if you lose the mech the pilot can still tank, but the difficulty ramps up. I really think that's fair, and doesn't overly punishes the group.

Here's the thing, though: it does punish the group if the "difficulty ramps up". Because the healers would have to focus on keep the mechless tinker alive, instead of helping the rest of the group. A normal tank would just need a single battle-rez cast and done. Tank is back up, all ready to tank again, but with the tinker, the healers would have to focus and probably have to waste cooldowns to keep him alive for however long it takes to get another mech. The tinker becomes a liabiilty without his mech.

You can't make the "tanking difficulty ramp up" without "punishing the group". I don't see any way to do that.

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Let's put it this way. To be competitive as a tank, the tinker would need to have the same EH as a another tank. If they drop out of the mech, they either need to be able remain just as effective, or, entirely useless like a druid, but able to switch back very quickly. Every bear has at some point shat themselves when tanking and accidentally swapping to caster form.

Now, if they are just as effective out of the mech, the mech is redundant other than "flavour". But more concerning, they would need to have less health both in mech and out, since they are otherwise not punished for losing the mech. This would NOT work, as healers would fucking hate it.

The only ways a mech suit works is A) it's perma, and contributes to your defence, but no go bar or anything stupid. Or, it's a large CD, once per fight use, summon the mech, get op for 30 seconds, then it's gone.

Pretty much, yeah. I've been saying that for quite some time.

[Salvager23]

Here's the thing, though: it does punish the group if the "difficulty ramps up". Because the healers would have to focus on keep the mechless tinker alive, instead of helping the rest of the group. A normal tank would just need a single battle-rez cast and done. Tank is back up, all ready to tank again, but with the tinker, the healers would have to focus and probably have to waste cooldowns to keep him alive for however long it takes to get another mech. The tinker becomes a liabiilty without his mech.

You can't make the "tanking difficulty ramp up" without "punishing the group". I don't see any way to do that.

I did say it would punish the group, just not overly punishing the group to the point where bringing a Tinker to a raid would make people pull their hair out. Also what do you think of the healer's heals lowering the cooldown on resummoning the mech?

[Ielenia]

I did say it would punish the group, just not overly punishing the group to the point where bringing a Tinker to a raid would make people pull their hair out.

But here's the thing: why would anyone want to bring a class that would only make things much harder for them than any other class would? Like I said: the tank dies. It's a warrior? Battle-rez. A death knight? Battle rez. A paladin? Battle rez. A druid? Battle rez. A monk? Battle rez. A tinker? Gotta heal-heal-heal-heal and likely use healing cooldowns to keep it from dying to it can summon its mech again.

Also what do you think of the healer's heals lowering the cooldown on resummoning the mech?

It's still a pointless mechanic because the healers that would have to constantly overheal the tinker to bring the mech back, could instead be working on keeping the rest of the group alive, especially the other tank who would likely be taking extra damage due to tank debuffs.

"Losing the mech" simply has to matter, or not matter at all. The former makes the tinker tank a liability (explained above). The latter makes the mechanic pointless. So the tinker would either be skipped over by almost everyone, especially on progression fights, or it becomes basically mandatory to have your two main tanks be tinkers.