LFR should TEACH players to become better raiders.

[Quaade]

We know that LFR is a divisive topic on MMOC but hear me out on this, I believe this would be good for the game.

You start your argument with "but" which gives me no desire to listen to anything else you say. Rhetorically you might as well have said "I'm not a <bigot> but..." Your argument carries as much value as that at this point.

Then there's also the fact that what you say can easily be replaced with talking about M+ dungeons as they are as large a part of this game. I see plenty of people in high keys M+ who have no ideas what any of the mechanics do and/or how the Affixes affect them. In SotS I've seen many tanks engage and keep the elemental before the second boss in the middle of the bridge twice on Fortified weeks on +15. Or keeping the first two bosses in ToS together on Tyrannical weeks, even worse on the Grievous week as it makes the ring of death impossible to jump over. The fact that you can even jump over the ring. Etc.

People should have learned what these things do and how they work when there's no consequence to failing, as in the Mythic version. Being surprised at high keys is just wasting the time of four other people.

[Bigbazz]

People who do LFR don't care about getting better at the game, when LFR is too hard they just wipe until the determination stacks high enough and/or enough experienced players join to boost them. Also, in LFR people are often expected to look at the dungeon journal to "learn" a fight, and it amazes me how many people are completely oblivious to the fact that the dungeon journal is next to useless for helping someone who has yet to see a fight.

"Run when you have the banana debuff" isn't meaningful to someone who doesn't know what a banana is, or when it's coming. For the dungeon journal to work it would have to provide clear visible relatable examples that provide context to abilities, phases, mob names etc etc, and force players to watch it before they attempt a fight. Then seriously hand hold them through the process so that they aren't just tunnel visioning any visual or audio cues.

With that said, LFR is just super easymode for the tourists, it's not worth any more effort.

[A Chozo]

Is that LFR fault or BFA?

It's not LFR or BfA's fault. It's the nature of gamers since gaming became a thing.

LFR is an answer to that. People quit when there's no content in their desired difficulty level.

[BeepBoo]

This one is simple, give top tier raiders a reason to do LFR.

Stop trying to entice me to become an active part in a community I have no desire to interact with. Let the people who naturally want to interact, educate, etc, with those people do that simply because they want to. "Not enough would do it, though!" Well what is wrong with that? Let the chips fall naturally where they may. Attempting to get more people into raiding when they otherwise can't be bothered for <some reason> isn't really something I'm interested in.

[Deadite]

LFR is a cancer, thx for coming to my Ted talk.

If you have a functioning brain it is a cancer you can never catch. Pick one of the other three raid difficulties. It is almost like people are crying about something that is no longer a problem. You have zero reason to do LFR if you don't want to.

[BeepBoo]

IMO, remove ALL raids and replace them with interesting world and story content.

"interesting" implies difficult. That's not allowed in overworld.

[arkanon]

People dont raid for such a wide array of reasons, and for the vast majority, I firmly believe those with the motivation to raid, will raid, and those without it - wont. No matter how many carrots you dangle in front of them, they just wont. There could be a very small sub-section of the community with a desire to raid normal or higher who are simply intimidated, but i think that number is so small it is not worth changing anything to cater specifically to them.

I am NOT saying they are not an important part of the game, or dont deserve content - im just saying you shouldnt impact the majority simply to appeal to a minority - thats how wow ended up the fucking shambles it is today.

[Varrusian]

LFR is the only reason they haven't entirely stopped making raids in the first place. Blizzard was actually considering removing raiding as a small minority of the playerbase actually did raiding and wasn't worth the cost.

and where did you get this absolute bullshit information from? it's 100% incorrect and not backed up by anything Blizzard has ever said.

[Bigbazz]

You are wrong.

That doesn't address or comment on anything I said in my post, if you want to reply then don't be so lazy.

[Bigbazz]

It actually is 100% correct and backed up by statements directly from their raid design team.

- - - Updated - - -



You read the wrong post. The post I liked is second from the bottom. It's MY post.

Yes I get it you can't understand that generalised posts are used for generalised examples, exceptions to a rule don't change a generalization and you didn't address any part of the main point of my post. It's just laziness, and doesn't comment on my post, nor challenge what I said.

[BeepBoo]

No. Difficult stuff is not at all interesting. That's why only 0.001% of WoW players do mythic raiding. Difficult is an antonym of interesting.

lel. Sorry, I only feel senses of pride and accomplishment when I overcome something that isn't faceroll, and I prefer to do things I can take pride in.

It doesn't have to.

For me, it does. Easy things re boring because there's no sense of fear, no chance of failure. Without those, I have a hard time staying engaged or even awake. I get that other people feel differently, and I should have a caveat on my previous post saing "IMO".

Plus, story itself can be interesting if Blizzard could write decent story rather than today's fanfic they produce. In SWTOR I come back for awhile every content patch just to enjoy the new story content regardless of what's been added gameplay-wise.

Story is never enough to be compelling to me in things I actively do. Story is suited as a primary driver for passive entertainment systems IMO. TV, netflix, audible, etc. If I'm doing something, I'm looking to get something out of it. Working on reflexes and precision is usually it in video games. Otherwise, I'm a weeby jock by nature IRL with an overtly competitive streak. I take pleasure in doing things and doing things well.

[Logwyn]

We know that LFR is a divisive topic on MMOC but hear me out on this, I believe this would be good for the game.

Intro

LFD was and still is a great tool used to open up heroics, Mythic+, and raids to all players.

LFD opens up Mythic+? You can LFD for Mythics? Since when?


Why do you assume that people that do LFR are not good players? I do LFR because I can do it on my time and when I want too. I don't have to show up at time X on days A&B. I've had way worst runs IN a guild than LFR as well. I do LFR to see the story and pretty much done.

I do LFR do to time crunches and scheduling not cause of my skill at wow.

[Ehrenpanzer]

They tried this in MoP.... good lord did it not work

[Deadite]

lel. Sorry, I only feel senses of pride and accomplishment when I overcome something that isn't faceroll, and I prefer to do things I can take pride in.


For me, it does. Easy things re boring because there's no sense of fear, no chance of failure. Without those, I have a hard time staying engaged or even awake. I get that other people feel differently, and I should have a caveat on my previous post saing "IMO".



Story is never enough to be compelling to me in things I actively do. Story is suited as a primary driver for passive entertainment systems IMO. TV, netflix, audible, etc. If I'm doing something, I'm looking to get something out of it. Working on reflexes and precision is usually it in video games. Otherwise, I'm a weeby jock by nature IRL with an overtly competitive streak. I take pleasure in doing things and doing things well.

All that is fine but what does it have to do with LFR? Sounds like you don't like or do it. That is all fine as well but some people do like and do it. You don't have to set foot in it for anything. Are you one of these people that want to remove content that you don't do or something?

[Jamie081]

Which is fucking absurd.

I thought it's absurd there are people who don't want to improve at the game, but after trying Guild Wars 2 I had no idea how commonplace this mentality of not wanting to improve can be, and how much of a contentious issue raiding and challenging content in an MMO is for some.
The GW2 community has been divided for years between the vast majority of open world players who don't know how to play their class/follow mechanics, and a small handful of raiders who play the game well and want a challenge out of the game. The latter group is so small that raids are no longer even developed because not enough people even bother raiding, even though GW2 raids are probably the easiest raids out of all the more popular MMOs. People who ask for more challenging content in GW2 are usually told to try a different game or leave by the people who don't raid because 'GW2 is the MMO for casuals'.

Arenanet (developers of GW2) have stated before that the average GW2 player's DPS is 2-3k, and for perspective, benchmarks place DPS specs at around 35k. The average DPS of a GW2 player is literally just autoattacking. I feel like playing GW2 has given me perspective on how good WoW and its players actually have it. At least raids are still being developed and at least most players know how to do decent levels of DPS/HPS with their class. Encounter logging and DPS meters have always promoted player potential to improve and made it accessible to many.

LFR is of course an odd case considering it was used as a justification to continue making raids in WoW. I've seen people waste hours in LFR yet they can't be bothered to create a group for normal because they 'don't have the time'. That's not saying there are not lots of people who also start in LFR and then work their way up to the higher difficulties.

[BeepBoo]

Are you one of these people that want to remove content that you don't do or something?

No, but OP was talking about handing out rewards to people as a means of enticing them (people like me) to go. That's my only thing. Don't do that. I'm tired of all this dumb shit "rewarding" (which means, if you're a jones chaser like me who wants dem orange parses, you HAVE to do everything that can possibly get you more power) me for doing content beneath my skill. It's insulting and time-wasting.

Doing islands, doing LFR, doing warfronts, emissaries... doing literally anything that is just faceroll /played filler. None of it should reward a player like me. I should be focused on only things at or above my level.

[Bigbazz]

No. I get it. You just fail at reading comprehension. Generalizations are ALWAYS wrong. See? I can do it too.

LFR is a useful tool for people who actually DO want to get better. You just don't realize it because you're oblivious to reality.

The opposite of a generalization is to use the exception to the rule and say that it's relevant in a general sense, which makes no sense.

If 100 people do LFR and 99 of them don't give a fuck, the 1 person who uses it to teach themselves to raid doesn't overule the 99. Most people who do LFR are doing it maybe once or twice and never raid, most times you do LFR you can be sure lots of people have never even seen the boss before and probably won't see it again. People don't give a shit about getting better in LFR, the exceptions don't change that and generalizations are almost always right because they are based on an observation of objective reality.

Also, that's only one small part of my post. If you weren't going to address the whole post, don't quote the whole post. Either way, you still didn't address my point, why are you wasting both of our time?

[Deadite]

No, but OP was talking about handing out rewards to people as a means of enticing them (people like me) to go. That's my only thing. Don't do that. I'm tired of all this dumb shit "rewarding" (which means, if you're a jones chaser like me who wants dem orange parses, you HAVE to do everything that can possibly get you more power) me for doing content beneath my skill. It's insulting and time-wasting.

Don't worry we don't want people like you in there anymore than you want to be there.

[BeepBoo]

So, you don't read books? Reading books is not difficult, but it is very interesting.

Difference in activity types. Any game with combat as the focus needs to have good, hard content for me to be interested. Games that are combat-focused, yet faceroll easy, are possibly the worst game types out there.

Not everyone is like you. (thank Heaven)

That's fine, but if you know that and respond the way you did, you're a hypocrite. You admit people like different things and that's the reason for the discrepancy in taste, yet you still claimed in a very matter of fact way that difficult stuff isn't interesting.

[BeepBoo]

Don't worry we don't want people like you in there anymore than you want to be there.

Excellent! Then you disagree with OP's bullshit proposal to tuck awards for people like me into content for people like you. We're on the same side!

*highfive*