Got booted. Am I the bad guy?

[Darththeo]

No. This argument boils down to you bullheadishly trying to jam any act that could conceivably enrich the self into the hole of being selfish.

Why? So you can push this needlessly edgy pseudo 'gotcha' moment on people that "Being selfish isn't bad guys... No matter what Mum says." Like some rebellious teen that just read Rand for the first time and thinks the concept of the invisible hand and the Nietzschean ubermensch is the hottest shit on the block.

We get it you played Bioshock. Guess what though, Rapture flooded...

I never played Bioshock. I barely even know the story outside people found some thing in shocking. Also never read Rand, I know of her only because people like to bring her up when I mention my lack of religion.

And no, I don't believe selfishness is bad because it is not inherently so. It is an opinion that it is bad and thinking otherwise just because mom said so is nonsensical. Sometimes you need to be a little selfish.

[Maquegyver]

No you are not. Personal loot is exactly what idiots wanted. And they have to deal with its down-sides. One of the down-sides is its not up to them if the other person trades the item. Deal with it.

Want to hand out loot as is appropriate; then give us back the perfectly functional ML or greed/need.

Totally their call to kick you though. If you were just in for one azerite piece seems to have worked out just fine.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Exhibit A of the hunter not being a dick

I don’t think that qualifies as "dick moves"

[Molvonos]

No. This argument boils down to you bullheadishly trying to jam any act that could conceivably enrich the self into the hole of being selfish.

Why? So you can push this needlessly edgy pseudo 'gotcha' moment on people that "Being selfish isn't bad guys... No matter what Mum says." Like some rebellious teen that just read Rand for the first time and thinks the concept of the invisible hand and the Nietzschean ubermensch is the hottest shit on the block.

We get it you played Bioshock. Guess what though, Rapture flooded...

I'm quoting this because I agree with you. Unfortunately for that crowd, you can't convince them, you can't debate with them, let alone have any sort of intellectual conversation because every, single, act that benefits self is SELFISH.

Sorry, but no. The piece of gear might have been an upgrade (if his gamble played out right), he did it to benefit himself over someone who acted entitled and clearly decided to drag other people (the raid leader) into it. Fuck the entitled pieces of shit.

I'm playing this game for myself.

I'm playing this game for my friends.

I'm playing this game for my guild.

I'm not playing this game for randos who can clearly lick their colon clean with their heads so far up their asses.

[Wheeler]

now thats just a bad idea to not even answer,what are you afraid of?just respond,by you ignoring it makes the person think you didnt see it and he could just continue asking,responding is better,also....just dont loot the item if you dont wanna deal with it

Because when I kill something, I loot it.

And if I don't want to talk to someone, I don't talk to someone.

[Ragedaug]

Totally their call to kick you though. If you were just in for one azerite piece seems to have worked out just fine.

This is a point that always seems to be forgotten in these "am I a jerk" threads (because they always seem to end with the poster having been kicked from a group).

The OP was perfectly in his rights to keep his item to use for powder.
The RL was perfectly in his rights to kick any player from his raid that he doesn't care to play with.

Hunter says, "can I has your thing?", OP says "no", RL said "OK, thanks for coming, we prefer playing with folks who share loot. Have a good one, we'll find someone to take your place".

That's why these questions never seem to hit the crux of the issue. I prefer the "should" you do a thing, versus "can" you do a thing. The fact that the RL & buddy are upset AND the OP is upset points out to me that there is a better way to play, as everyone involved left the situation more miserable than they started it.

Cooperate and share and everyone wins over the long haul. Play for self and disregard others ends up hurting the community and just serves to cause everyone to leave mad.

Just doesn't seem to be a productive way to go through life. Help others even if they never help you back and you'll feel better and accidentally cause those around you to feel better too.

[deenman]

Because when I kill something, I loot it.

And if I don't want to talk to someone, I don't talk to someone.

sure,but your literaly making things harder/more annoying for you when you can simply avoid it all

[Shango]

Why does everyone ignore the second half of the definition of selfish? Even that being said, he had no consideration for others anyway so that part is moot. He didn't consider at the time he said no that the item could have more value to someone else.

Im suprised this argument is still going on. To me any definition you can not realisticly apply to a real world scenario (like walking up to a person watching a movie for its entertainment value and calling said person selfish) is either faulty or missunderstood. You are even taking it one step further because you argued donating to charity can be considered selfish as a person might do it to feel better about themself.

In that regard no matter what i could have done i would always be considered selfish in your eyes, keeping the item for my own benefit is obviously selfish, giving the item away to benefit someone else would still be selfish as the only reason to do so would be because it made me feel better about myself.

I do agree however if you take your provided definition word by word i was selfish, i just dont think that it is a very useful statement to make.

You also never answered how i should approach hc pug raiding to begin with, if i am supposed to give away any non obvious upgrade there is no loot in the raid for me and therfor no reason to join any pug in the first place. So either i raid for altruistic reasons (still being selfish somehow) or just do something else like watching a movie (which still would not make any less selfish apparently).

[Raelbo]

So.. I'm saying that it's a dick move in terms of social interaction/etiquette, but, ultimately, that it doesn't matter. I believe that OP shouldn't have been kicked.

Yeah, I got that the first time. What I am saying is that I don't understand what makes it a "dick move".

If I had been that hunter who wanted the gear from OP I would have been excited that OP didn't need it because he had something better, disappointed when he told me he did need it to scrap for residuum, and then been on my way from there resuming raid as normal. Obviously the raid just assumed that the OP would give his gear to lesser geared people, and OP assumed that the group had no expectation of him passing his gear to other people.

How is this the OP's fault? I would argue that this is more about a false sense of entitlement by the hunter rather than the OP being a dick.

It's always been a socially dickish thing to roll or keep something that you don't really "need" over somebody who it's a big upgrade for.

Well, it was a socially dickish thing to do when the loot system was different and there wasn't titan residuum in the picture. Seems to me this is more a case of some people just being stuck in a past mode of thinking that no longer applies.

In this case, though, there isn't an alternative loot system. It's not like OP /rolled for ML or need-rolled for Group Loot on an item just so he could scrap it, which is why I think the raid shouldn't have removed him from the group. That was a dumb decision on their part.

This is the mode of logic that I don't get. Either he pulled a dick move, in which case he deserved the kick, or he didn't, in which case he doesn't. The fact that the system allows you to pull a dick move has never been an excuse for doing so.

Gotta play by the rules of the game. This is the way Blizzard requires their loot to be handled now, so the players need to adapt to that or find a game that they think is better. Personally I play Classic because I enjoy that version of the game more, but I'm not going to get on retail and then complain that other people don't play the game like pre-BfA.

It's more about adapting to a slightly different paradigm than playing by the rules. Nothing about the loot rules compels or forces anyone to be a dick. But it does alter what constitutes being a dick. Sure, under the old ML paradigm with no Titan Residuum in the picture, doing this would have been considered a dick move. But you should consider that under that old paradigm, the OP would have no incentive to join the raid in the first place, and the scrub hunter would have grouped instead with lower geared people and the raid would likely not have even made as far as Ra-den before falling apart. And even if they did, and the item dropped, the hunter would have lost the roll to the other guy. At which point the RL would probably have pulled a dick move and ninja'd the item anyway....



It seems to me that your argument is more about taking a "subtle" dig at the PL system (and retail in general) than considering whether or not what the OP did was a dick move. As if somehow the system exonerates people from taking personal responsibility for their actions.

And while I completely disagree with you that this story does anything to strengthen the case against PL (if anything, it strengthens the case for PL), I don't want to see this thread being hijacked by that discussion.

[BullyZJ]

You needed that item to get an upgrade. I don't consider it selfish or dickish. Same for transmog, if you are looking for a piece because you like its aspect, why the hell do you have to trade it to a player that maybe will get a better one next day? Always talking about pugs, not guilds or groups where progression is needed.

[LanToaster]

then you went on a tirade trying to explain why an MMORPG is better off with every man an island, playing for themselves.

Where you are Wrong. I told you that what you are Demanding/Wanting is exactly "Every man for himself".

You dont want to grant the Enchanters their Enchanting Materials, and the OP his TitanResiduum.

I get it that you disagree with me. I'm fine with that. I just think we're all better off when we cooperate in this type of a game. But to each his own.

I dont think you know what cooperation is.
Cooperation is not: "Give me your stuff I need it more"

I suspect you are not one to complain about the "toxic" community, because the community is behaving as you deem best.

I dont complain about Toxic Community because Complaining doesnt fix shit, and I am in no place or power to Judge how other people should play their game.

The thing with Multiplayer games is that you can Choose with whom you play. So, if there are people I dont agree/like to play with, (e.g. People Begging for loot before I´ve even looked at it, people thinking they may get an Item directly instead of Rolling for it by whispering, etc) I just dont play with them.

Because: You cant change Greedy people like yourself, I just find it sad that a large majority think "Cooperation" means: "Gimme all your stuff".
I maybe I would have just a bit more Sympathy for your Cause that "A Bigger Upgrade for someone is worth more", if I had actually seen someone who begged to me for Loot pass on an Item if he already got one over another player on a Roll.

But all you do is hide your Greed behind "Cooperation"

But a complete stranger in a PUG? No chance. The PUG community at large has spoiled any sense of altruism or generosity a long time ago. The reaction of the hunter and the raid leader only reinforces that. "Gimme gimme gimme or fuck you!" is exactly the wrong kind of attitude to foster the type of social niceness you think should exist.

B-b-b-b-buuut the Cooperation! Jokes aside, that is Exactly my feeling. But these kind of People think others dont deserve Jack shit.

sure,but your literaly making things harder/more annoying for you when you can simply avoid it all

Its much more Annoying to argue with greedy peopl about your own Loot. I usually also Ignore Whispers about my Loot.
In case of a Raid that uses TS though (or my own raid), I kindly Inform that the next whisper about my Loot will prompt me to not have others roll for my Loot.

Whispering others for Loot is Annoying, and Greedy. Sure it *could* be that one doesnt notice that he got an Item. But the chances are slim, chances are way Higher he wants to keep it for whatever reason. Transmog, TitanResiduum, Enchantingstuff, or heck even Gold. Sometimes its nice if you join a Raid and might even gain something out of it, instead of just the RepairBill.

In my Opinion what other people got is of no Concern for you, unless its going to the RaidChat/Groupchat for roll.

[Dalheim]

The group formed and killed trash And the pattern drop someone won the role completely fair then the group turned against her because they want to dilute to go a certain way and it became a fun little video on YouTube

[Darththeo]

I'm quoting this because I agree with you. Unfortunately for that crowd, you can't convince them, you can't debate with them, let alone have any sort of intellectual conversation because every, single, act that benefits self is SELFISH.

Sorry, but no. The piece of gear might have been an upgrade (if his gamble played out right), he did it to benefit himself over someone who acted entitled and clearly decided to drag other people (the raid leader) into it. Fuck the entitled pieces of shit.

I'm playing this game for myself.

I'm playing this game for my friends.

I'm playing this game for my guild.

I'm not playing this game for randos who can clearly lick their colon clean with their heads so far up their asses.

That is some major league projection because the only people who cannot be convinced is your side because you don't want to be considered selfish. You have no argument against it being selfish and in fact your post here proves you are being selfish. But your only response is to go "WE AREN'T SELFISH!" You have no argument against it because you know you fit the definition, but because you have your reasons for acting selfish and those reasons are not culturally unacceptable you assert you aren't being selfish.

Even OP agrees he fits the definition of being selfish, but doesn't feel that means anything here. The bullheaded people in this conversation aren't the people like me.

[SirCowdog]

.

But all you do is hide your Greed behind "Cooperation"



B-b-b-b-buuut the Cooperation! Jokes aside, that is Exactly my feeling. But these kind of People think others dont deserve Jack shit.
.

And you can absolutely have that......in a guild or with friends.

But in a PUG of total strangers you're likely to NEVER see again? Yeah, that's not a good environment to foster generosity.

[Raelbo]

Even OP agrees he fits the definition of being selfish, but doesn't feel that means anything here.

I am not debating with you further because it's pointless. However I would like to point your blatant dishonesty with this statement.
@Shango patently did not agree that he fits the definition of being selfish. He said he fitted your definition of selfish - a definition that he very clearly disagreed with, saying "any definition you can not realisticly apply to a real world scenario ... is either faulty or missunderstood"

This is not the first time in this thread that you've misrepresented/lied about what other posters have said, nor am I the first person to even point this out.

- - - Updated - - -

And you can absolutely have that......in a guild or with friends.

But in a PUG of total strangers you're likely to NEVER see again? Yeah, that's not a good environment to foster generosity.

Agreed. The best you can hope for in a pug is that people are fair and reasonable. And that's more than enough.

In this case the OP was fair and reasonable. He helped the group out by carrying a bunch of weaker people through killing a bunch of bosses so that they could get their loot chances with those bosses. In return he was looking for a chance at getting an azerite piece to scrap for the TR he needed.

The loot he kept was loot that the game allocated to him for being there, completely independently of anyone else in the group. There is zero basis for the hunter claiming that he lost out due to any form of selfishness on the part of the OP, because even if the OP hadn't been in the picture, it would have changed absolutely nothing.

The people who were neither fair nor reasonable were the hunter and the RL. They expected some kind of handout from the OP in return for what? The "privilege" of being about to spend his time killing bosses that he had already killed many times already with his guild?

[Darththeo]

I am not debating with you further because it's pointless.

You weren't even debating in the first place. You were lecturing because you view that your view was the only correct one. A debate requires you are open to being shown to be wrong and were actually willing to listen to the other side, you weren't. You got to misrepresent my argument but slight potential misrepresentation in mine (which even this one your pointing own now is you being pedantic), gets instantly discount everything else said.

You came into this "debate" solely to prove me wrong not because you actually cared about speaking with a person with a opposing view.

OP even again admits that to how I see the definition he fits it and accepts how people can see it. However you and others get to insult and belittle me because what? You think I am shitposting?

What is and isn't considered selfish is based on personal opinion, cultural views, etc ... life itself is selfish, it seeks to continue itself for the sake of itself. I do not deny the inherent nature of selfishness being a part of life. And just because something is selfish doesn't mean it is wrong and just because a person is selfish in one act doesn't mean they are always selfish.

You were never willing to listen, you never cared for debate. You wanted to lecture and got mad at the fact I didn't bow. I don't care if you agree with me or not. But you never listen in the first place so you could never have been debating. You are outright dishonest, but get to apply that to me ... I am done with your hypocrisy.

[xenogear3]

I cannot believe people are still debating.

This would never be a problem if it is an auto group feature.
There is really no reason to have a "raid leader".
It is not like he tried to help people. On the opposite, he is expecting PUGs are over gear and don't need any loot, so he can have all.

[Malix Farwin]

That is some major league projection because the only people who cannot be convinced is your side because you don't want to be considered selfish. You have no argument against it being selfish and in fact your post here proves you are being selfish. But your only response is to go "WE AREN'T SELFISH!" You have no argument against it because you know you fit the definition, but because you have your reasons for acting selfish and those reasons are not culturally unacceptable you assert you aren't being selfish.

Even OP agrees he fits the definition of being selfish, but doesn't feel that means anything here. The bullheaded people in this conversation aren't the people like me.

I do not really see the pont in calling him selfish when the rando were being selfish too. You have no idea if their hunter was a main or alt and ppl join pugs to progress their charater not a random group's character. Second of all when you invite a pug you should do so with the expectation that you wont get any loot from them with a personal loot system. If you have any complaints about that you should blame the game not the player. He was completely entitled to that loot. This is why ppl do not loot anymore and just let it go to mailbox.

[Saltysquidoon]

I don’t think that qualifies as "dick moves"

Yes immediately rudely REEEEEEing at someone over heroic gear in a pug then going to your buddy to have them kicked is not a dick move.
That said buddy instead of telling to an entitled toddler not to knock over tables because they can't have the way, then kicks that person which is also not a dick move.

That speaks more to your character then I think you want your glib posts to do.

The OP was perfectly in his rights to keep his item to use for powder.
The RL was perfectly in his rights to kick any player from his raid that he doesn't care to play with.

I've said it seventeen times in this thread I'll say it seventeen thousand the RL has the power to kick the OP not the right. Kicking someone because your friend is being a rude greedy asshole does not make you a good friend, it makes you weak-willed and ultimately the bigger asshole.

[Darththeo]

I do not really see the pont in calling him selfish when the rando were being selfish too. You have no idea if their hunter was a main or alt and ppl join pugs to progress their charater not a random group's character. Second of all when you invite a pug you should do so with the expectation that you wont get any loot from them with a personal loot system. If you have any complaints about that you should blame the game not the player. He was completely entitled to that loot. This is why ppl do not loot anymore and just let it go to mailbox.

I can understand that. I am not arguing that the Hunter wasn't being more selfish. He was given a valid reason on why the OP didn't want to share, whined to Raid Leader. Raid Leader agreed with them because they are friends. I don't think anyone was wrong.

I think there were better ways for all parties involved to have handled the situation.