Mega-Thread: Trump Focused Discussion

[CostinR]

It doesn't have to go there though, I am not predicting it, but that is the threat I see written in this letter. When a General, even a retired one, directly accuses the President of deliberately harming the nation and making a mockery of the constitution, I can't read that as anything but a threat

Oh fucking hell. I understand why you are saying what you are, I understand the context, that if we listen to all the experts and media the end times might be coming.

But seriously. The US has one case of riots and you're all acting as if you're heading towards a military dictatorship or a military coup, because a sitting president threatened to effectively invoke martial law, which he has a legal right to in a crisis, and because an ex-SecDef criticized him for it.

I just have to say that. I don't even take US politics seriously anymore. If I did I'd believe the end times are here, but it's such exaggerated over the top crap when in reality it's nowhere near as bad as it's being portrayed.

Seriously I've seen far worse riots and stronger government responses over the last decade in Europe. We're still here without military dictatorships and coups.

[Omega10]

Who is going to vote for who? Mattis isn't running for anything.

If you think Mattis is voting for Trump... you are delusional.

Mattis will not be voting for Trump. Here is the text of his speech. It is VERY powerful.

In Union There Is Strength

I have watched this week’s unfolding events, angry and appalled. The words “Equal Justice Under Law” are carved in the pediment of the United States Supreme Court. This is precisely what protesters are rightly demanding. It is a wholesome and unifying demand—one that all of us should be able to get behind. We must not be distracted by a small number of lawbreakers. The protests are defined by tens of thousands of people of conscience who are insisting that we live up to our values—our values as people and our values as a nation. When I joined the military, some 50 years ago, I swore an oath to support and defend the Constitution. Never did I dream that troops taking that same oath would be ordered under any circumstance to violate the Constitutional rights of their fellow citizens—much less to provide a bizarre photo op for the elected commander-in-chief, with military leadership standing alongside. We must reject any thinking of our cities as a “battlespace” that our uniformed military is called upon to “dominate.”

At home, we should use our military only when requested to do so, on very rare occasions, by state governors. Militarizing our response, as we witnessed in Washington, D.C., sets up a conflict—a false conflict— between the military and civilian society. It erodes the moral ground that ensures a trusted bond between men and women in uniform and the society they are sworn to protect, and of which they themselves are a part. Keeping public order rests with civilian state and local leaders who best understand their communities and are answerable to them. James Madison wrote in Federalist 14 that “America united with a handful of troops, or without a single soldier, exhibits a more forbidding posture to foreign ambition than America disunited, with a hundred thousand veterans ready for combat.” We do not need to militarize our response to protests. We need to unite around a common purpose. And it starts by guaranteeing that all of us are equal before the law. Instructions given by the military departments to our troops before the Normandy invasion reminded soldiers that “The Nazi slogan for destroying us...was ‘Divide and Conquer.’ Our American answer is ‘In Union there is Strength.’”

We must summon that unity to surmount this crisis—confident that we are better than our politics. Donald Trump is the first president in my lifetime who does not try to unite the American people—does not even pretend to try. Instead he tries to divide us. We are witnessing the consequences of three years of this deliberate effort. We are witnessing the consequences of three years without mature leadership. We can unite without him, drawing on the strengths inherent in our civil society. This will not be easy, as the past few days have shown, but we owe it to our fellow citizens; to past generations that bled to defend our promise; and to our children. We can come through this trying time stronger, and with a renewed sense of purpose and respect for one another.

The pandemic has shown us that it is not only our troops who are willing to offer the ultimate sacrifice for the safety of the community. Americans in hospitals, grocery stores, post offices, and elsewhere have put their lives on the line in order to serve their fellow citizens and their country. We know that we are better than the abuse of executive authority that we witnessed in Lafayette Square. We must reject and hold accountable those in office who would make a mockery of our Constitution. At the same time, we must remember Lincoln’s “better angels,” and listen to them, as we work to unite. Only by adopting a new path—which means, in truth, returning to the original path of our founding ideals—will we again be a country admired and respected at home and abroad.

James Mattis

This is one of the most pro-US speeches I have heard in quite a while. And he is quite clear that the only way to move forward and strong is to get rid of Trump first. Trump, like Nazi Germany before him, is trying to Divide and Conquer the US. Mattis spoke VERY powerful words.

And oh yeah. The bolded part is most definitely meant to apply to Trump. And not only Trump.

[Machismo]

What if they don't listen to Mattis, or what if some do and some don't exactly. Tell what do you think happens then? Let's assume the United States is going down the path you believe it is: Either down a dictatorship led by the orange man, or a military coup to prevent that happening.

The most likely outcome if history, even recent history, is any indication, is a significant divide in the armed forces IF that happens, the US military like any military on the planet does not have a universal view on this. Trump is still the lawful president, the moment the military decides to take matters into it's own hands things get ugly, and they don't answer to Mattis, they answer to Milley and Esper.

No coup needs to happen, there will be more than enough pressure to allow for Trump to back down on the use of military members against protesters in this fashion. What it does, is make him impotent. These aren't the words of some sycophant that got tired of Trump's shit, it's one of the most respected generals int he history of the United States Marine Corps saying Trump is a direct threat to the United States Constitution, and America is better than that, and can survive his attempts at division.

This isn't going to be something that is challenged by the rank and file enlisted, this will be something that is debated in conference rooms int he Pentagon. And you can bet your ass that everyone in that building is abuzz over this. You will have multiple senior officers speaking to guys like Esper, and making it clear that Trump better tread very carefully with his next moves. Trump will blink, spam Twitter with whining for a week, then pretend like he was never going to do what he said he was going to do. He'll shit on the chess board, and swear he won.

Now, I haven't been in the military for a while, but the tone of the veterans today, is far different than it was even a week ago. If the active military is any different, then this is a crushing blow to Trump's populism campaign. Sure, selling military violence is easy to racists and rednecks who hate the libs. But, trying to sell it to the people who are going to be perpetrating that violence, is a whole different ballgame.

Mattis was very specific, calling Trump out for his photo op... something that was entirely unnecessary, and was not tactically (or even strategically) sound in any way. This was calling Trump out for being a self-serving jackass, and risking the lives of decent Americans for doing so. Military members may tend to hate liberals, but they hate shitty leaders much, much more. Trump choosing to be a dipshit narcissist wasn't that impactful on the lives of military members, but this is. This is giving them all a crisis of conscience, and they are going to have to think long and hard about why they choose to serve, and whom they are serving.

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doesn't it fuck with your mind know he is still gonna vote for him just to not vote Democrat?

If you think Mattis will vote for Trump, then you clearly have no clue what you are talking about.

[Paranoid Android]

President Trump tried to register to vote in Florida using an out-of-state address - The Washington Post https://t.co/wZyzqafIH2

https://twitter.com/jdawsey1/status/...979804673?s=19

Hahaha! Throw voter fraud in jail!

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Wait, did Trump commit voter fraud?

Needs to go to jail. Amirite Trumpkins??

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I know we are a few pages passed it, but Mattis comparing Trump to nazis... ouch...

Screw Mattis. He was silent while serving Trump and did not say nothing to until now. For all you giving credit, we almost needed an act of military for Mattis to speak out.

Luckily it wasn't if Trump had taken a few steps further.

[Breccia]

Screw Mattis. He was silent while serving Trump and did not say nothing to until now

I get your point, I do.

But you could also look at this as "if he's speaking out now, it must really be that bad"

[eschatological]

Come on, the guy was most likely KKK. However I do not believe in judging someone based on the sins of their father and bringing up his father is a shitty thing to do. Trump is a terrible enough person to be judged on his own.

I'm constantly seen as a credit to my father, that I'm an indication that he was a good man. Why can't the opposite be true?

Racism and prejudice aren't ingrain features, they're taught at the dinner table.

[Thekri]

No coup needs to happen, there will be more than enough pressure to allow for Trump to back down on the use of military members against protesters in this fashion. What it does, is make him impotent. These aren't the words of some sycophant that got tired of Trump's shit, it's one of the most respected generals int he history of the United States Marine Corps saying Trump is a direct threat to the United States Constitution, and America is better than that, and can survive his attempts at division.

That is certainly the hope. You don't make threats if you have already made up your mind to do it. This is a chance to back down, reconsider the idea of the military as his personal toy, and never fucking use it to threaten Americans again. Trump isn't exactly fast to pick up on the situation, but once someone explains the concept to him I am hopeful that he shits his pants and backs down immediately.

Screw Mattis. He was silent while serving Trump and did not say nothing to until now. For all you giving credit, we almost needed an act of military for Mattis to speak out.

Luckily it wasn't if Trump had taken a few steps further.

I sort of agree. Fuck Mattis, for other reasons. Mattis did not speak out prior to now for exactly the reason it is so powerful now. Mattis speaking out against him is a grave threat to the very nature of the Republic. This is directly addressing an elected president as a threat to the nation, and doing it directly to the military.

If you believe that America is a bigger concept then Trump, Mattis had an obligation to keep silence for as long as he could. This week he couldn't keep silent any more. Trump broke the taboo already when he threatened the use of the military for political means, and then immediately used unnecessary violence against his own people. Now he finally had the obligation to speak, and he did. I do not fault him for his silence, and although his finally speaking fills me with dread, I cannot fault him for that either.

Now fuck Mattis for a host of unrelated issues tied to preserving a cult of Aristocracy in the military officer corps, shielding fellow flag officers from consequences of sexual assault, corruption, and gross mismanagement. Mattis is as guilty as your average police force in covering for his colleagues, no matter how wrong they are. But not for his political stances.

[Paranoid Android]

I get your point, I do.

But you could also look at this as "if he's speaking out now, it must really be that bad"

I'm trying to be argumentative here, but Mattis and others almost waited when it was too late.

We all know we have these people who are 'Senior White House' concerned or upset about Trump.

Mattis was very complicit up until this point just a few hours ago. He actually had influence. As we see especially with the Legislative Branch is why we can slip into authoritarianism.


@Thekri. Yeah, Mattis doing the 'I'm a good soldier' by not speaking out, does not give him a pass.

[Edge-]

I get your point, I do.

But you could also look at this as "if he's speaking out now, it must really be that bad"

No, screw Mattis.

He had to wait until over 100,000 Americans died due to Trump's total incompetency, and Trump has played party to damn near ginnin up race wars while US law enforcement assault and murder people?

That was the time when Mattis said, "Yeah, maybe I should say something."? And, reportedly, he's still fucking holding back?

I'm not gonna cheer just because Trump is bringing us to the potential collapse of the country and that will look just terrible in the history books. We're gonna live that fucking history, dude. I'm livid with Mattis and Tillerson specifically, as those were the two who were supposed to be smart enough not to be loyalist, but at all the former Cabinet officials under Trump who continue to do nothing but occasionally leave cryptic hints.

If he is such a threat to the country, fuck executive privilege and take one for your country and fucking go nuclear. Anything short of that is cowardice, and I have no respect for that. I don't give a shit about military honor or whatever, if it's as dire as you're cheering Mattis on for saying, it's his responsibility to say something.

[Elegiac]

No, screw Mattis.

He had to wait until over 100,000 Americans died due to Trump's total incompetency, and Trump has played party to damn near ginnin up race wars while US law enforcement assault and murder people?

That was the time when Mattis said, "Yeah, maybe I should say something."? And, reportedly, he's still fucking holding back?

I'm not gonna cheer just because Trump is bringing us to the potential collapse of the country and that will look just terrible in the history books. We're gonna live that fucking history, dude. I'm livid with Mattis and Tillerson specifically, as those were the two who were supposed to be smart enough not to be loyalist, but at all the former Cabinet officials under Trump who continue to do nothing but occasionally leave cryptic hints.

If he is such a threat to the country, fuck executive privilege and take one for your country and fucking go nuclear. Anything short of that is cowardice, and I have no respect for that. I don't give a shit about military honor or whatever, if it's as dire as you're cheering Mattis on for saying, it's his responsibility to say something.

After seeing what civilian protesters are willing to put themselves through this past week I have absolutely no shame in calling Mattis a coward by comparison.

[Breccia]

Trump trails Biden in Wisconsin, Ohio and Arizona.

"You already posted that. Everyone posted that."

Yes, but FOX News didn't. Until now. And no, we have not seen these on 538 before.

The Fox News poll of the Buckeye State found Biden at 45 percent and Trump at 43 percent, which is within the survey’s 3.5 percentage point margin of error.

The Arizona poll found Biden leading Trump 46 percent to 42 percent.

The final Fox News poll found Biden opening up a 9-point lead in Wisconsin, which Trump won only narrowly in 2016.

Source. Source. Source.

[Elegiac]

Trump trails Biden in Wisconsin, Ohio and Arizona.

"You already posted that. Everyone posted that."

Yes, but FOX News didn't. Until now. And no, we have not seen these on 538 before.



Source. Source. Source.

Do you hear the people sing...

[Breccia]

]he's still fucking holding back

Mattis admitted this.

[Thekri]

@Thekri. Yeah, Mattis doing the 'I'm a good soldier' by not speaking out, does not give him a pass.

Personally, no it doesn't. Morally, also no, it doesn't there either.

This is one of those "For the greater good" things. Also called duty. Sometimes you get put in a position where their is no good choice, only evil and less evil. Military service has a habit of creating those.

Mattis has influence, yes. But his influence is primarily over the military, an inherently apolitical organization. His speaking out, then or now, is not going to shake Trumps base. It isn't going to move national polling. But it might save the republic, or damn it.

[Edge-]

Mattis admitted this.

Which changes nothing. He's still holding back despite everything going on right now.

They all are.

[Mekkle]

Who is going to vote for who? Mattis isn't running for anything.

If you think Mattis is voting for Trump... you are delusional.

My brain has melted because of these near 4 years of maddness, i'll believe in anything at this point, so yea, delusional.

I still think you're a cool dude.

[Breccia]

1) This FOX News headline Barr ordered officials to clear area around Lafayette Square before Trump’s protest remarks, officials say. Which sounds suspiciously like scapegoating. Also, in the article, Barr claims someone threw a bottle at him, which would give him all the loophole he needed if it was true. If.

Not that it'll work, but, a Democratic Senator from Virginia has called for Barr to resign, blaming him for this.

If Trump wants an out, this is the only one he will ever get.

I don't think Trump wants an out, just so we're clear. But it's not like Barr is useful anymore, not really.

[Elegiac]

Not that it'll work, but, a Democratic Senator from Virginia has called for Barr to resign, blaming him for this.

If Trump wants an out, this is the only one he will ever get.

I don't think Trump wants an out, just so we're clear. But it's not like Barr is useful anymore, not really.

Hm, now that you mention it making Barr the scapegoat does seem a facile and Trumpian thing to do.

[Thekri]

My brain has melted because of these near 4 years of maddness, i'll believe in anything at this point, so yea, delusional.

I still think you're a cool dude.

That is fair. However Mattis is definitely not supporting Trump. I am not sure if you will see him on stage with Biden or not, but he has a different role to play in this tale. With this letter he is basically taking a more vigilante approach. His goal is to do get America to January 20, 2021 in one piece. He is going to play the role of the Presidents leash. It won't be the leash you want, or I want, but this seems to be an announcement that gives Trump a line he can't cross. He can't use the military to stay in power. He can't cancel elections or break the rules of the election. He can't declare the election illegitimate and expect the military to back him.

Mattis alone can't make that promise, but he isn't alone. He is going to be standing with Amos, Dunford, and a lot of other legendary generals. Some of them have already made statements, and others may be waiting to make them. They talked about this. Don't think any of them shot off these letters in a temper without calling the others first.

Mattis isn't your liberal savior. He probably won't endorse Biden. He wants to make sure there is still a presidency for Biden to win.

[Breccia]

The State Dept IG flat-out admits under oath that yes, he was investigating Pompeo when he was fired. It is no longer conjecture.

And, apparently, Pompeo's wife.

Trump said Pompeo told Trump to fire this IG who was investigating Pompeo. How's that swamp draining going?