I now have 62% unbuffed haste.

[Djuntas]

Don't forget the HP, I remember hitting 100k a few weeks after capping and it felt really cool - now some geared dps aren't far off 700k - it's insane

Oh yea thats true, the survival is insane in older content for sure...Scaling is high on HP too

[FelPlague]

Not always. Blizzard used to add stuff on new expansion, now they tend to remove it.
You lost your epics and maxed out stats but you gained new talents, new abilities, lots of new content to play
WOD was the first expansion where they removed more than they added. This was the first round of ability pruning
Then Legion went way overboard with it and made some specs literally have 3 buttons, dps cooldown included.

This is how my early MOP BM rotation looked like:
-cobra shot as focus generator
-arcane shot as focus dumper
-kill command as primary nuke on short cd
-kill shot as execute ability (<20% hp)
-bestial wrath as a short DPS cooldown (60s)
-lynx rush as a moderate DPS cooldown (2 min)
-stampede as a big DPS cooldown (5 min)
-an ability that resets all CD's under 5 mins (Readiness, 3 min cd on its own)
-engineering enchant activated on use (60s cd)

AOE rotation also had more abilities
-choice between Glavie Toss and Barrage depending on number of targets (these abilities were used in single target rotation as well)
-Multi Shot as staple (filler)
-Explosive Trap (this wasn't used much in single target but definitely used a lot in AOE)

That was a lot of buttons to mash, so even at low gear levels with no secondary stats (hit and expertise reforging was eating anything else, i had like 4% crit after hitting 90) the gameplay was high APM and engaging.

Now if you combine removal of many borrowed power systems + ability pruning + no stats you get a bland husk of a class that is very unsatisfying to play. BFA did some other dun fuckery as well with weird mob scaling, people were hitting 340 item level and finding the mobs more difficult than at 280, fresh out of the box. There was no visible power progression. Your power gain was always pretty evident on your usual daily quest routine, where mobs would die faster and faster and you could do much larger pulls. BFA systems made this impossible which is why this expansion had opinions of being "worse than WOD" at launch.

I love how you say a bunch of hogh pogh that has nothing to do with anything. Getting 1 talent would not make up for suddenly going from full BIS to greens. Especially since in BFA, legion. And shadowlands, we get abilities while leveling that are equivalent to talents.

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people want to run it over and over because its new and the only real content on the alpha after you check out the zones a bit.

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cool. looking forward to what you hate in shadowlands.

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i have 50% vers with corruption. with more resistance i will likely sit well over 60%. tell me thats possible without corruption.

Vers no, but for example in 8.1 I was able to hit a perma 80% haste as demo lock.

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people want to run it over and over because its new and the only real content on the alpha after you check out the zones a bit.

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cool. looking forward to what you hate in shadowlands.

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i have 50% vers with corruption. with more resistance i will likely sit well over 60%. tell me thats possible without corruption.

People want to run it over and over because it's fun as fuck. There is tons to do on the alpha other then just "check out the new zones."

1. Class changes
2. Explore all 4 current zones
3. Quest in 3 current zones.
4. Check out customization
5. Torghast
6. Try out the new starting area
7. Try out the new leveling experience.
8. Try out the 3 open dungeons.
9. Try out covenent abilities.
Normally I only play warlock, only class I have a ton of fun in, and some skill in, there is other classes I enjoy, or have some fun in. Like BM hunter, vengeance DH and frost/unholy dk. But torghast, I have been playing every spec in there and having so much bloody fun.

[Wramp]

people want to run it over and over because its new and the only real content on the alpha after you check out the zones a bit.

lighten up francis, it was a joke...LOL

[Aeluron Lightsong]

if players had their way everyone would start with everything. i dont know about you but games where i could immediately be a superhero got boring pretty quick.

If having a fluid rotation makes you a superhero, then I think you're smokin something. Being slow isn't fun and for many it will just annoy them.

[mmocfd1b0ab5a3]

I can't imagine how much it will suck to go down to 4-5% when Shadowlands is out. I mean expansion power resets have been a thing, but man this is just going to suck...

I guess you didn't play in Legion. Because from Legion to BfA most off GCD abilities went to on GCD, that was way bigger impact than going from 62% haste to 5% or so.

Most of us who played in Legion can imagine and it won't be that bad.

[Echocho]

You knew this was going to happen, you could've gone for other stats.

[scelero]

Nah, what's crazy is my lock has never found the time on how to wear plate or leather armor.

[Pury]

Destruction has around 150-180% haste in combat with correct azerite+corruption combo
Better have some fun while we can.

[FelPlague]

I guess you didn't play in Legion. Because from Legion to BfA most off GCD abilities went to on GCD, that was way bigger impact than going from 62% haste to 5% or so.

Most of us who played in Legion can imagine and it won't be that bad.

"Most" you mean "Some"

[Gaidax]

Well as Destruction, I know I am going to crash hardddddd.

I just hope they will give us some legendary that at least gets infernal down to 2 mins or something.

[mojusk]

if we didnt have a power reset each expac, you would have 1000% haste, fully decked in corrupted legendary tier sets. its a necessary evil

[Gaidax]

if we didnt have a power reset each expac, you would have 1000% haste, fully decked in corrupted legendary tier sets. its a necessary evil

While I agree with your statement, it is important to point out that Diablo is a thing and it manages to work all the same despite damage numbers being in trillions and what not.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

While I agree with your statement, it is important to point out that Diablo is a thing and it manages to work all the same despite damage numbers being in trillions and what not.

I wouldn't call that a good example..like at all.

True a lot of classes don't need haste to sim high, they do however need haste to be fun

Which is a problem(Well if the class is slow then its a problem).

[lollerlaban]

This, this is what needs to be observed. Also most ppl did 10k DPS struggling, but now even a bad player in wow can do 50k single. And AOE sustained close to 75-100k prolly. I dont think we have had such a power increase before, can anyone renember how much say sunwell, ICC or something scaled us? I dont think naxx40 was as bad etc.

100k at the start of MoP was high tier dps and on Garrosh, guilds like Method had players going above 500k and some at 700k+

Compared to TBC where 500 dps was a minimum requirement for karazhan, and in sunwell you had some classes doing almost 3k

[Doffen]

Sorry, I meant to say Uldir but just slipped back all the way to EN!

Easy mistake. Uldir is like the nightmare you know you felt horrified for real during sleep, just to wake up and not remembering anything.

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True a lot of classes don't need haste to sim high, they do however need haste to be fun

Just think about all those havoc Demon Hunters losing their 3 times Furious Gaze in Shadowlands. It's why havoc have been so well paced in BfA. Just to lose all that when going into Shadowlands.

BfA = TUBP, The Ultimate Borrowed Power expansion

[Elias01]

The first time I experienced this was Mists of Pandaria.

When TBC launched I honestly felt like I was getting more powerful every new level I gained, probably helped by the fact that they expanded the talent tree.
Same in WotLK.

I can't speak for Cataclysm because I didn't play then.

But there is something to be said about the negative feelings I in part now experience when a new expansion launches because I already know I'm going to feel weaker again the first few months... New expansions should be full of positive emotions and excitement in my opinion, not have this nagging feeling in the back of your mind that keeps reminding you about how weak and unpleasant being a fresh max level character is going to be again.

I understand why borrowed power systems exist, and I probably would get bored of the game if those weren't there, but yeah... current game design not exactly refined or perfected enough yet to properly deal with the negative side effects of such systems.

Thats becouse fix to this means Blizzard would have to make game less acessible or simply accept fact that most people will have nothing to do in 2 weeks. TBC and WOTLK worked becouse game wasnt so easy to complete trough acessability features like LFR so people were playing more and longer but since game become more open more people get bored faster which forced Blizzard to create new progression systems which created curent powercreep which lead to this power resets.

[kaminaris]

Nothing will ever feel even remotely as bad as losing artifact weapon in legion.

Concordance gone, gazilion of trinkets (passive effects of weapon) gone, legendaries that changed your gameplay gone, relics gone, netherlight traits gone, cooldown reductions gone, massive amounts of HP gone, spells gone (to talents).

BfA has absolutely almost nothing I will miss and stats are certainly not one of them. I might miss some azerite traits but everything else is forgettable, like borrowed power should be. Thank god shadowlands won't have all that crap legion gave to classes anymore.

[SpikeySquad]

Having over 200% haste in combat is stupid to me and is aggravating my joints so I am for one will be glad to go back down. Though I understand that some people find that "fun".

[Tradu]

Haste is the stat that I believe they should just have everyone start at significantly higher and balance accordingly. There's not a single person who enjoys when their character plays slow as shit for 75% of an expansion.

Depends a bit on spec, for example Assassination, Subtlety, WW and Feral play better before they get flooded with resources from more secondaries(or usually external systems like artifacts, legendaries, set bonuses, azerite, essences).

I think the solution should be more along the lines of keeping haste a much smaller number and have it grow much less over the expansion. So instead of going from 5% to 50% haste over an expansion you'd start at 2% and end at 15% or something. That'd make the stat itself less fun(and realistically it's the only stat that you can actually feel on most specs), but it'd allow them to tune spec pace better and more consistently baseline.

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Having over 200% haste in combat is stupid to me and is aggravating my joints so I am for one will be glad to go back down. Though I understand that some people find that "fun".

Agreed, there's definitely a point where it becomes too much. Both to keep track of as a player and for the game to function properly. Spell queueing sort of just dies when you have too much haste, and specs like Fire just straight up don't work because you end up with spells traveling too slowly for your GCD/Fire Blast CD.

[Gaidax]

I think the solution should be more along the lines of keeping haste a much smaller number and have it grow much less over the expansion. So instead of going from 5% to 50% haste over an expansion you'd start at 2% and end at 15% or something. That'd make the stat itself less fun(and realistically it's the only stat that you can actually feel on most specs), but it'd allow them to tune spec pace better and more consistently baseline.

I just want to give you a stunning revelation, so maybe take a chair for a second.

Different specs play differently. Some specs like Destruction, for example, have their spender on 3 seconds case baseline and some other specs simply have massive downtimes at near-0 haste to the point they are sitting there staring at the screen waiting for something to do.

It's completely fine to start expansion with ~30% attainable haste from the get go that goes all the way to 60+% by the end, because many specs simply play much better with nice haste amounts.