Pulsecheck: Talanji

[Morae]

Imo, Talanji is what Yrel was in wod. My dislike for Talanji is about at same level as Yrel.

I'm sorry, if someone gets offended by this, but like Yrel, Talanji exists only because blizzard needed to add some woke in the storyline. This is entirely normal these days so I dont fault them for it.

Talanji is entirely one dimensional character. Doubt she will be in the story much unless something directly relevant to trolls happen, which might, but it will be a passing event.

[cparle87]

Well, couple things: She WAS heading to meet the Horde. And she was accompanied by Zul, a priority hostile target, who led multiple assaults on the Alliance (or their allies). It was reasonable to assume that they were up to no good. Zandalar had no diplomatic relations with the Alliance, the only interactions were hostile. Talanji had to be viewed as an enemy agent.
And if one person talking about something is really one of your best examples for a "morally grey" Alliance then I'd declare the Alliance absolutely pure white. How can your reasoning be "Oh, head of intelligence is talking mean about the Horde, yeah that calls for a preventive strike resulting in the near eradication of an entire race".
And was he even wrong? The MU Horde has shown us, that they are quite capable of being warmongers without any Legion interference. Even the AU Iron Horde did exactly the same thing, willingly, despite knowing what did happen in the MU. There is enough ground to argue, that the Horde (or at least the Orcs) at their core are savage Beasts, which are only sometimes tamed by civilization. But you seem to think otherwise, which is fair enough. It's just from Shaw's perspective it's totally reasonable to hold the Horde accountable, given how they behaved on Azeroth.

There's no indication they knew Zul was with her. They didn't know where she was going, they were only correct after the fact which doesn't count. Not having diplomatic relations with a group does not give you carte blanche to abduct their royalty.

As for Shaw, as I said he's one of the most well informed people in-universe. He doesn't know all that we know as players from an outside perspective, of course, but he's still well informed. And yet he has the audacity to blame the modern Horde for something Garona was mind controlled into doing by Gul'dan, whose only loyalty was ever to the Legion. Do you see the blood elves discriminating against the Forsaken for what they did when they were Scourge? No. It's one of the defining differences between the Horde and the Alliance. A good chunk of the Horde races were enemies and fought and killed each other in the past. Guess what. THEY. GOT. OVER. IT. They accepted circumstances and moved on. The Alliance? Is still bringing up grievances from 30 years ago in lore. That's not even the Horde's fault. Remember Wrathgate and Varimthras? Alliance is incapable of going "Something bad happened and the Horde didn't do it."

- - - Updated - - -

1. Baiting and trolling is rude. But on the offchance you're serious, a grey story wouldn't have had Sylvanas lead the Horde onto a war of genocidal aggression for no tangible reason, and not even the -lukewarm- reason from the short story making it ingame.

2. You... are backwards.

Talanji can't just off her dad's top prophet and general, her action in Nazmir and sending the player around is her dealing with them. She has to be subtle.

Moreover, she has no knowledge of her dad's deal with Bwom when he makes it. She has no action to take regarding it.

1. You might want to try reading the books. Sylvanas explains her motivations quite well. Enough to convince even Saurfang that the attack on Teldrassil was justified. Or are you one of those "if it didn't happen ingame I'm going to pretend it doesn't exist so I can use it as justification to bash the writing" guys? We got too many of those.

2. She can't off him, but she never demanded to know what he was doing, why he was out in Vol'dun so much. Rastakhan's big flaw was that he trusted his advisors too much. We know Talanji tried to get him to open his eyes and look around, but we don't know how much. Like I said, inaction.

- - - Updated - - -

Imo, Talanji is what Yrel was in wod. My dislike for Talanji is about at same level as Yrel.

I'm sorry, if someone gets offended by this, but like Yrel, Talanji exists only because blizzard needed to add some woke in the storyline. This is entirely normal these days so I dont fault them for it.

Talanji is entirely one dimensional character. Doubt she will be in the story much unless something directly relevant to trolls happen, which might, but it will be a passing event.

Who is being more political here? Blizzard? Or the guy who assumes that everything around him is done to appear "woke"?

[Skytotem]

1. You might want to try reading the books. Sylvanas explains her motivations quite well. Enough to convince even Saurfang that the attack on Teldrassil was justified. Or are you one of those "if it didn't happen ingame I'm going to pretend it doesn't exist so I can use it as justification to bash the writing" guys? We got too many of those.

2. She can't off him, but she never demanded to know what he was doing, why he was out in Vol'dun so much. Rastakhan's big flaw was that he trusted his advisors too much. We know Talanji tried to get him to open his eyes and look around, but we don't know how much. Like I said, inaction.

1. I literally commented about the 'lukewarm' explanation in the original post, I've read the story and it's condescending of you to assume I haven't. I disagree strongly that it was a good explanation, I feel it made Saurfang look like a rube that he bought the explanation without questioning any of it in detail. It was atrocious writing that the Horde was willing to Follow Sylv after the mess Garrosh left behind.

2. Not -onscreen- but what would she have done if he refused to answer or straight up lied? Talanji's -active-. She went to Nazmir specifically to take action. She had the player running around in Zuldazar for that same reason.

[Aucald]

Zul is still the one who Sent teh original forces into Pandaria to interact with the Mogu and Gara'jal was the there on his orders from Zul. Posturing tha Zul wasn't in charge because another troll was also there isn't much of an argument and fact is, despite you saying it's only a mention... that mention is still from more than a single line of a quest.

I never said Zul wasn't their leader, only that he's not there. Vilnak'dor was the direct leader of the Zandalari forces active in Pandaria. Zul is mentioned quite a few times in MoP, but again, he's never seen anywhere on Pandaria or the Isle of Thunder. He's apparently doing his leading from elsewhere, possibly Zandalar at that point.

I feel like a broken record... That was my point. There is absolutely nothing on the subject

For good or bad, which is my point. For someone who is rather hidebound about canon-only sources, you seem to focus a great deal on things we have no canon information about.

Really? I see no mention of such. Unless you mean that one line:
"Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: The boy king has something that does not belong to him. I want it back."

Implying that Talanji "belongs" to her, yes.

I disagree. It seems more likely that Talanji and Zul might have picked up information as they sailed a out from Stormwind and therefore she came to the point.

When is this supposed to have occurred?

Do keep in mind she's now discussing matters with the voice of the horde face to face, regardless of whatever context you're assuming. Her trip has made it's conclusion in a way that falls in line with her goals without needing to worry about missing details prior to her departure.

I'm not assuming a context as there's one already present. To who and what do you think she's referring to here?

There are ALWAYS impressions to set the tone... just take a peek into any forsaken or elf thread for examples.

Well, there's the impression that most Trolls detest Humans, the same animus that Vol'jin and Tyrathan Khort deal with during their forced alliance in Shadows of the Horde. Most Trolls outright glory in the killing of Humans in remembrance of the Troll Wars and the loss of their mighty twin empires of Zul'Aman and Zul'Gurub.

The zandalari have abstained from many interacting with the factions with the only major actions in recent years being Hakkar's handling or Zul's bullshit. However, like others have pointed out, humans have a track record for holding their own grudges and inciting troll uprisings in the recent past might be held in a certain light.

See above.

Nevermind that the zandalari weren't eager to welcome the horde (talanji being weird there and Rastakhan possibly not wanting to tell her no).... But this wasn't at all what I was originally trying to argue...

The Zandalari are exceedingly proud and mired in their traditions, no doubt about that. But between the Horde and the Alliance, they have more in common with the Horde and a history of conflict and hatred with the Alliance.

[Grazrug]

Each Horde member has massive beef with the alliance or humans. Only exception are the Tauren. So it is just natural that horde and alliance are doomed to fight each other ever once in a while.

[ReVnX]

I find her too obnoxious, but that might be the voice acting

[lagiacrux]

Headstrong and quick to action (rushed into fighting the Blood Trolls), loyal to those who help her (the Horde) and resentful from those that mistreat her (Bwonsamdi). She's a troll of faith but previously this was to the late Rezan so her culture is important to her. Now, due to the bargain that her father made, she's in the uncomfortable position of worshiping a loa that is in part responsible for her father's death and seems to resent this. She pledged herself to Sylvannas and the Horde, but decided not to blindly follow her nor help with Saurfang's efforts. I think it'd be fair to say she has a rebellious streak. She hasn't had a lot of opportunity to be much of a rebel, especially as Queen her duties have mostly restricted her from being the kind of person she would otherwise probably prefer to be, and as a priestess she's quite literally in the business of paying fealty to higher powers - maybe that's a little masochistic, or maybe her duty to family and people were so strong that she felt she has to and just ended up having a talent for it. A humble, rebellious leader would probably be a better summary of the archetype if we had to simplify her.

BuT sHe HaS nO pErSoNaLiTy!!!

[Eto Demerzel]

Well, for me Talanji is just basically a grown up Lisa Simpson.

It starts as a worthy-to-follow character because it looks like she has the mind on the right place... then she starts becomine a somewhat perfect character with no flaws... but also no personality, no conflicts, nothing... she just follows "what is right" and thats all. She makes no mistakes, she is strong, she is powerful and independant from the Horde (yet fully dependant as shown in questing).

So honestly she is just poorly written for me. She is not the worse charcter out there, just somewhat plain.

On the other hand, Rastakhan seems way more interesting... he just became a stagnant leader who let Zul run the country and by his sweet lies... he just lies somewhat "dormant", then when he wakes up, shit starts going crazy, he leads his tribe back again and gives us an epic showdown agains Zul. He shouldnt have died so early, he should have lasted untill the end of the expansion.

[Saltysquidoon]

oh might also look at this:

In the wake of the mists vanishing around Pandaria, Zul has sent Zandalari scouts under the command of Prophet Khar'zul and Gara'jal the Spiritbinder to find out information about their ancient mogu allies.

Isn't it super weird that every link you post related to Zul and Panadria never have any footnotes linking to any source to back up the claims? For example, the cata paragraph immediately preceding had four footnotes despite being three sentences long.

It's almost like (and this is crazy) people have to make inferences (or even assumptions) based on the preceding and following lore about Zul's involvement in Pandaria because nothing states it outright...

All this stuff about Zul is irrelevant anyway. Sylvanas burned the tree, the horde wasn't morally grey, it was Garrosh 2.0 and the war ended in SoO 2.0. There is nothing your pointless pedantic 4-page fishing expedition about the exact circumstances about Talanji's arrest can do about that.
Further, it wouldn't matter if the alliance apprehended her bloodlessly 2m from orgs docks laying her communication with sylvanas at her feet or if they captured her and hour away from zul'dazar by random chance with no preknowledge of her intent and executed her whole crew, ressed them and executed them again. Talanji admitted she was going to negotiate with the horde.

That's not even the Horde's fault. Remember Wrathgate and Varimthras? Alliance is incapable of going "Something bad happened and the Horde didn't do it."

It's canon Sylvanas ordered the attack on the wrathgate.

1. You might want to try reading the books. Sylvanas explains her motivations quite well. Enough to convince even Saurfang that the attack on Teldrassil was justified. Or are you one of those "if it didn't happen ingame I'm going to pretend it doesn't exist so I can use it as justification to bash the writing" guys? We got too many of those.

You mean the motivation that requires us the believe that Sylvanas is such a galaxy brain she can lie in her own internal monologue in order to fool reader's she doesn't know exist?

[LordVargK]

There's no indication they knew Zul was with her. They didn't know where she was going, they were only correct after the fact which doesn't count. Not having diplomatic relations with a group does not give you carte blanche to abduct their royalty.

Of course they knew where she was going. They had Spies in OG, which is why they knew about Talanji in the first place. And even if not, Zandalari are a hostile force to the Alliance. Capturing ANY Zandalari was rectified, since the Alliance had no way to know, that the Zandalari attacks were the work of Zul alone, and not approved by the rightful leader of the Zandalari.
Also, did the Alliance even know that Talanji was a princess?
Honestly this is pretty sloppy writing on Blizzards part. As a base for this discussion I tried to find out, if Zul and Talanji were even on the same ship, or how Zul was captured. I found nothing. Do we know how Zul got captured? I just assume he was colleteral when Talanji got intercepted, but do we know that?

As for Shaw, as I said he's one of the most well informed people in-universe. He doesn't know all that we know as players from an outside perspective, of course, but he's still well informed. And yet he has the audacity to blame the modern Horde for something Garona was mind controlled into doing by Gul'dan, whose only loyalty was ever to the Legion.

Considering the SI7's intelligence work regarding the Broken Shore and the Horde's army movement at the beginning of BfA, I have my doubts that the SI7 is as informed as you think. And really, some displaced blame is hardly something to get angry about.
Also, do you mind giving me a quote where Shaw says that?

Do you see the blood elves discriminating against the Forsaken for what they did when they were Scourge? No. It's one of the defining differences between the Horde and the Alliance. A good chunk of the Horde races were enemies and fought and killed each other in the past. Guess what. THEY. GOT. OVER. IT. They accepted circumstances and moved on. The Alliance? Is still bringing up grievances from 30 years ago in lore. That's not even the Horde's fault. Remember Wrathgate and Varimthras? Alliance is incapable of going "Something bad happened and the Horde didn't do it."

See, that's the thing: All the time there are some members of the Horde who do stupid shit. It's pretty hard to get over something, if those occurences don't have meaningful consequences and similar things keep occuring. Yes, the Horde is not responsible for the Wrathgate. But the Horde IS responsible for developing the Blight in the first place. The wrathgate incident did not even stop the development of the Blight. Sylvanas remained in charge, despite her obvious failure to control her underlings and her obvious neclectance of the living. She later used the Blight in Gilneas and multiple other Locations. Then Garrosh. Consequences for nuking a city and starting a war? None. Next Sylvanas: Oh, 90% of the Horde sided with her? Well does not matter, she tricked them all into going on a murderous rampage. Only Sylvanas is to blame...
How can you trust the Horde, if they have again and again proven, that they have no control in place to stop mass murderers or warmongering dictators to arise. Their population is more than willing to go to war. And how can you even forgive a Faction, who uses the cruelest form of weaponry on the regular?
You really can't expect the Alliance to differentiate between the individual Horde member and the Horde as a whole all the time. And the Alliance has shown leniance again and again. Their grudges don't have any effect, besides the Alliance (rightfully) distrusting the Horde.

On a Sidenote: I consider Bloodelves and Forsaken working together just bad storywriting, as most of TBC's lore is. The fact that the Bloodelfs rather forgive the Ex-Scourge than join the Alliance (and the remainder of Highelves) because of one racist human commander (so much for getting over it) is mindboggling to me.

[froschhure]

Respect the damn writers and play the game cause it’s fun, Talanji isn’t a problem the negative attitude and toxicity that came from league players/csgo players in 2008-2015 took its time to reach to WoW but now that it’s here it’s like it can’t go away

it has nothing to do with the players, the game nowawadays is designed to sell, wow prior 3.3.5 (wow with no cash shop or token) was simply designed to have fun, gather experience and get as much information needed to then create a wow that can sell things to persons (Need Creation).

The only thing that has ever destroyed warcraft is money.

[Soon-TM]

BuT sHe HaS nO pErSoNaLiTy!!!

She doesn't. The poster below explains it perfectly:

Well, for me Talanji is just basically a grown up Lisa Simpson.

It starts as a worthy-to-follow character because it looks like she has the mind on the right place... then she starts becomine a somewhat perfect character with no flaws... but also no personality, no conflicts, nothing... she just follows "what is right" and thats all. She makes no mistakes, she is strong, she is powerful and independant from the Horde (yet fully dependant as shown in questing).

So honestly she is just poorly written for me. She is not the worse charcter out there, just somewhat plain.

On the other hand, Rastakhan seems way more interesting... he just became a stagnant leader who let Zul run the country and by his sweet lies... he just lies somewhat "dormant", then when he wakes up, shit starts going crazy, he leads his tribe back again and gives us an epic showdown agains Zul. He shouldnt have died so early, he should have lasted untill the end of the expansion.

For some reason Blizzard is desperately trying to write Empowered Females™ as of late... and failing spectacularly, even more than with male characters.

[Skytotem]

For some reason Blizzard is desperately trying to write Empowered Females™ as of late... and failing spectacularly, even more than with male characters.

Eh, apples and oranges.

Blizz can't write very well, and that manifests differently for men than it does for women.

[Grazrug]

She doesn't. The poster below explains it perfectly:



For some reason Blizzard is desperately trying to write Empowered Females™ as of late... and failing spectacularly, even more than with male characters.

Talanji is an amazing character. If she was a man nobody would say a peep.

[Eto Demerzel]

For some reason Blizzard is desperately trying to write Empowered Females™ as of late... and failing spectacularly, even more than with male characters.

When i usually give this as the reason why some characters have been poorly written lately, lots of people tell me im biased because real life opinions on femminism and stuff, so im technically trying to avoid referencing this fact.

Y'rel was somewhat nicely written, she had conflicts, she struggled, she grew... Thalyssra also was thrown to the bottom, she was weak, she was utterly defeated, we helped her raise, we gave her some moral conflicts, her quests were somewhat nice... but the way that Blizzard threw us Jaina, Sylvannas, Azshara, Talanji, Rakera, Kaja and most female characters in BfA was simly awful. Most of them were just strong because reasons.

Talanji is an amazing character. If she was a man nobody would say a peep.

She would have been poorly written, like other mans like Me'dan or even Garrosh. A character can be well developed and have a story that explains why he/she follows the path he/she chooses and why he/she is strong as he/she is.

In previous expansions when they introduced you Khadgar (for example in Outlands), he introduced himself, he was an old mage strong from the first and second war, he had to destroy the portal and was left behind, and then you as a player should understand that he is strong not because he is just there, he is strong because his story.
Take for example another character in the same relevancy (as Khadgar in Outlands), for example Rakera. She is a strong military leader because... she has done... she has fought... she has served under.... what did she do? How can you simply call her strong if she hasnt done ANYTHING? She is just there to fulfill a gender quota. Every single relevant character on other expansions had an explanation, no matter the gender, take Lilian Voss, take Matthias Shaw, literally everybody had some sort of backstory, even if you did not live it they told you. Even poor T'Paarthos has more backstory and development.

[Hyeonh]

Far as characters go Talanji is an okay character though she needs more time to develop as a character. But with Blizzard's lobotomized writing team, I'd say they'll ruin her first before they make her better.

[Tharivor]

Talanji isn't a bad character at all- a bit bland perhaps but generally likeable and non-obnoxious which is somewhat rare in WoW these days.

The only reason why she gets so much hate is because of the irrational player hyping of Rastakhan, based on a few scattered references in Vanilla quest texts. In reality, as Aucald has pointed out, his days have been numbered since MoP. The Zandalari invasion depicts him as at best incompetent, doing nothing as his city sinks into the ocean and Zul takes command of his armies, or at worst complicit in Zul's schemes. His depiction in BfA was actually surprisingly competent and likeable.

[Soon-TM]

if she was a man nobody would say a peep.

If she was a man, it would be an equally boring character. Being male or female makes no difference in this regard.

[Grazrug]

Talanji isn't a bad character at all- a bit bland perhaps but generally likeable and non-obnoxious which is somewhat rare in WoW these days.

The only reason why she gets so much hate is because of the irrational player hyping of Rastakhan, based on a few scattered references in Vanilla quest texts. In reality, as Aucald has pointed out, his days have been numbered since MoP. The Zandalari invasion depicts him as at best incompetent, doing nothing as his city sinks into the ocean and Zul takes command of his armies, or at worst complicit in Zul's schemes. His depiction in BfA was actually surprisingly competent and likeable.

Rastakhan is a loser. Talanji a winner. That alone is reason enough for me to like Talanji much more.

[LemonDemonGirl]

If she was a man, it would be an equally boring character. Being male or female makes no difference in this regard.

Yes.

Boring male characters can exist too. Take Baine or even Garrosh for example. It's the writing/personality, not just the character itself