20 Indian soldiers killed along disputed border with China

[Corvus]

It looks like the tensions along the disputed India/China border in Ladahk have escalated. A brawl has left twenty Indian soldiers, including a colonel, dead. These are the first deaths along the disputed border in for 45 years.

As per a long standing agreement, neither side carries guns in the region to try and ease tensions, so these men were basically beaten to death with rocks and iron bars.

Tensions in the region have been building up since China moved thousands of troops across the long standing line of control into what had been de facto Indian controlled territory and dug in. There had been previous brawls that left men injured, but not dead as a result of that.

To kill that many men in a brawl could not have been an accident. One or two, maybe, but 20 seems a little high. It could be that China is trying to send India a message and also taking advantage of the current global turmoil caused by covid-19, especially in the USA.

But this seems a serious and dangerous escalation given that I doubt India will take this at all likely and may make them shift closer to the US, something that they have avoiding for a long time by trying to remain neutral.

[Breccia]

These are the first deaths along the disputed border in for 45 years.

I'm honestly surprised these are the first deaths. The UN is already watching the area.

Hopefully nobody actually wants a war and this shocks people back to their senses.

[jonnysensible]

Tensions in the region have been building up since China moved thousands of troops across the long standing line of control into what had been de facto Indian controlled territory and dug in. There had been previous brawls that left men injured, but not dead as a result of that.

it started in about 2008, india started building up infrastructure to a deactivated forward airbase that it then reactivated. Which pissed off China. There is also other geopolitical considerations. India keeps talking about recapturing Pakistan-administered Kashmir, and the Karakoram highway that china has needs for strategic reasons. (Belt and Road Initiative and it gives china access to the arabian sea via the pakistani port of Gwadar)

To kill that many men in a brawl could not have been an accident. One or two, maybe, but 20 seems a little high. It could be that China is trying to send India a message and also taking advantage of the current global turmoil caused by covid-19, especially in the USA.

The videos make it look pretty adhoc.

But this seems a serious and dangerous escalation given that I doubt India will take this at all likely and may make them shift closer to the US, something that they have avoiding for a long time by trying to remain neutral.[/QUOTE

India has been closely allied with the US for ages, it is an essential part of the US geopolitical plan in the region.

[eschatological]

Man, imagine having to take a side between an authoritarian pseudo-Communist dictatorship, and a religious nationalist krypto-capitalist psuedo-democracy in this conflict.


And I say this as an immigrant from the latter.

[jonnysensible]

Man, imagine having to take a side between an authoritarian pseudo-Communist dictatorship, and a religious nationalist krypto-capitalist psuedo-democracy in this conflict.


And I say this as an immigrant from the latter.

The sides are just nationalist (with a healthy dose of fascism) capitalism. Both of them. No need to dress it up anymore than that.

[Shadowferal]

I don't recall when US and India ever became close allies.

[eschatological]

I don't recall when US and India ever became close allies.

The U.S. has been close allies with India since 9/11, when they needed to fuck with Pakistan's head. And the U.S. has been wary of criticizing both since they both went nuclear.

It's merely allies of convenience, though Trump seems to have genuine fondness for Modi (who is a Hindu nationalist and a douchebag, but much smarter than Trump).

[xenogear3]

Kung Fu vs Yoga, 20 : 0

Enough said.

[Shadowferal]

The U.S. has been close allies with India since 9/11, when they needed to fuck with Pakistan's head. And the U.S. has been wary of criticizing both since they both went nuclear.

It's merely allies of convenience, though Trump seems to have genuine fondness for Modi (who is a Hindu nationalist and a douchebag, but much smarter than Trump).

Okay...makes sense.
It's a strange dance that Trump has when China gets added...a threesome. Now there's an image.

[PACOX]

The U.S. has been close allies with India since 9/11, when they needed to fuck with Pakistan's head. And the U.S. has been wary of criticizing both since they both went nuclear.

It's merely allies of convenience, though Trump seems to have genuine fondness for Modi (who is a Hindu nationalist and a douchebag, but much smarter than Trump).

Do we really care about the relationships forged by Cheney and the Gang? We know none of them anyone but those at the top.

[eschatological]

It's a bit more complicated than that. Obama fostered the relationship because India is the largest democracy in the world (something which has eroded under its current PM, Narenda Modi over the past decade), and one of the more stable ones in Asia. Its power in the area is only matched by China, and it has been traditionally been opposed to Pakistan, and China (over Tibet), both positions the U.S. values.

So yeah, we kinda do care about it, in the way we kind of care about Israel in the Middle East - delusions that states playing at democracy (much like ourselves) will somehow be of use against theocracies and authoritarians. At the very least by proxy, in lieu of our own leadership.

[Corvus]

Some further updates on the situation. The Indian army said that 3 of its troops (including an officer) died in the initial brawl and that the other 17 died of their injuries in the sub-zero temperatures were the fight took place. Apparently there was a freezing river that some fell into and very steep terrain as well.

The Chinese also took casualties but have refused to release numbers as they "don't want the people of the two countries to compare casualties so as to avoid stoking public mood."

Given the Indian claims that China took over 40 casualties and US intelligence believes 35 Chinese soldiers were killed, it could explain why they aren't releasing numbers.

Further, the Indian army has been given emergency power to deal with complete freedom against any Chinese aggression at the Line of Actual Control. Meaning next time it might not be just sticks and stones and knives but guns and artillery.

Oddly, the whole thing seemed to have started during a meeting to try and defuse the situation but it got out of hand.

[Omega10]

Some further updates on the situation. The Indian army said that 3 of its troops (including an officer) died in the initial brawl and that the other 17 died of their injuries in the sub-zero temperatures were the fight took place. Apparently there was a freezing river that some fell into and very steep terrain as well.

The Chinese also took casualties but have refused to release numbers as they "don't want the people of the two countries to compare casualties so as to avoid stoking public mood."

Given the Indian claims that China took over 40 casualties and US intelligence believes 35 Chinese soldiers were killed, it could explain why they aren't releasing numbers.

Further, the Indian army has been given emergency power to deal with complete freedom against any Chinese aggression at the Line of Actual Control. Meaning next time it might not be just sticks and stones and knives but guns and artillery.

Oddly, the whole thing seemed to have started during a meeting to try and defuse the situation but it got out of hand.

This is from National Interest.

https://nationalinterest.org/feature...ference-162860

Title: A Crisis Is Brewing Between India and China. But This Time There Is a Big Difference.

The gist of it is that India has been quite aggressive about asserting its claims to lands claimed by both Pakistan and China (and Nepal as well).

Last August, the Indian government revoked the nominal autonomy of the broader Jammu and Kashmir region, annexing the disputed region which had the status of a state according to the Indian constitution. New Delhi then divided the former “state” into two separate territories: “Jammu and Kashmir” and “Ladakh,” the latter being both the location of recent Chinese ingresses and home to territory claimed by Beijing. Earlier this month, Chinese scholar Wang Shida, writing on the state-run China Economic Net website, seemed to tie India’s annexation of Kashmir to the recent LAC activity, arguing that New Delhi “forced China into the Kashmir dispute” and “dramatically increased the difficulty in resolving the border issue between China and India.” As Wang notes, Beijing’s official response to New Delhi’s Kashmir moves was indeed quite strong—though many observers seemed to interpret them as merely symbolic measures to placate ally Islamabad.

The United States has provided cover for India as it has sought to create facts on the ground in Kashmir. And so it is unsurprising that China is now trying to create its own facts on the ground. Indeed, by endorsing New Delhi’s unilateralism and attempting to prop it up as a regional hegemon, Washington may be inadvertently facilitating Beijing’s rise as a power in South Asia.

Pakistan is not the sole regional state that fears Indian aggression. In 2015, India imposed a blockade on Nepal, just months after the country was hit by a devastating earthquake. Since then, Nepal, long dominated by India, has been veering into China’s orbit.

More recently,

In 2017, Nepal joined the Belt and Road Initiative and is reducing its economic dependence on India. A growing partnership with China has given Nepal greater resolve in standing up to India. This month, the lower house of Nepal’s parliament approved a new official map that includes areas claimed by India, after New Delhi inaugurated a road that passes through territory claimed by Kathmandu.

Washington, however, continues to amplify New Delhi’s influence in the region, despite the obvious anxiety it causes for smaller states in the region. It sees India as the locus of regional economic integration. A U.S. grant-funded electric power line project in Nepal became controversial because political forces there perceive to be tied to an American strategy to prop up India and contain China.

India is not as revered world wide as it is by Americans.

South Asian states, including Pakistan, may come to regret their economic embrace of China as their trade deficits and loan balances grow. But the United States is also making a strategic error by enabling India’s worst instincts. U.S. policymakers see India as a benign power in South Asia and view its extraterritorial actions and unilateralism in recent decades as exceptions to a policy of restraint. But that view is not shared by many of India’s neighbors who have a historical memory of Indian aggression. As a result, they are turning to China to balance India.

From a military standpoint, apparently India is winning the kill count with around 40 Chinese dead and 20 Indians dead. So at least for now, India is... winning. Well they seemed to have won this initial battle.

My current expectation is that this will die down and nothing significant will result from this. A major war between them would be very costly to both countries. But these are weird times, and I would not be surprised if this escalated in some way.

[Egomaniac]

seems appropriate

[Dsonsion]

Shit. /10char

[ParanoiD84]

A war between those nations could drive down world population abit so there is that atleast.

[xenogear3]

This is the first time that Chinese soldiers were given orders that they can fight back.
This is why the death count.

If you look at the map, Nepal and Bangladesh cut India into half.
This is why India wants fully control of Nepal.
It has 8 times more army than China in that area.

Weak economy of both countries could start a war to boost "Patriotism".

[ipaq]

I think its pretty cleared that the US got trolled hard by 9/11 and did exactly what they wanted: wasted tonne of money and got nothing.

To easy to bait.

The U.S. has been close allies with India since 9/11, when they needed to fuck with Pakistan's head. And the U.S. has been wary of criticizing both since they both went nuclear.

It's merely allies of convenience, though Trump seems to have genuine fondness for Modi (who is a Hindu nationalist and a douchebag, but much smarter than Trump).

[jonnysensible]

looks like 2 patrols bumped into eachother in the middle of the night had a little clash and then alot of them fell off a cliff

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.7680.../data=!3m1!1e3

here is the terrain 34°46'4.10"N, 78°12'44.75"E

[Draco-Onis]

A war between those nations could drive down world population abit so there is that atleast.

Since they both have nukes I don't think you want that.