Another I am I in the wrong thread

[Marrilaife]

YOU should have done it if it meant you didn't wipe.

Yeah, let's reinforce the notion that pug dps have to do absolutely nothing, let's have tank run around bomb adds, kill explosive, interrupt boss, stun the adds and dps just stand there. The warlock in OP's story doesn't deserve being carried through clean kills and timed keys with his attitude of "everyone else should do stuff just not me".

[Tankzorx]

I do not think you're in the wrong, usually I do the flames as a healer unless there's BM hunter who doesn't get punished whatsoever by moving.

That being said, you probably could have carried the group through the fight by doing the flames yourself

[solvexx]

Yeah, let's reinforce the notion that pug dps have to do absolutely nothing, let's have tank run around bomb adds, kill explosive, interrupt boss, stun the adds and dps just stand there. The warlock in OP's story doesn't deserve being carried through clean kills and timed keys with his attitude of "everyone else should do stuff just not me".

Quoting one part of what I said doesn't make you right. That is what is commonly known as "taking someone out of context."

I clearly said the DPS were responsible, but, if he didn't want to wipe.. He should have realised they weren't doing it and then done it. Sometimes you just have to put people in your backpack and carry them.

10 years on MMO-C, clearly you've caught the misquoting bug that MMO-C posters are known for.

[Marrilaife]

That is what is commonly known as "taking someone out of context."

It's called "replying to the quoted part".

10 years on MMO-C and I still see people replying with shorter post to a 3-times longer quote because they don't trim what they actually refer to. Not relevant to your specific reply, but happens a lot.

Point is, your argument is the same as people saying you shouldn't leave a horrible group because it's a bigger timewaste to leave run 50 mins in than finish it. On the other hand finishing it "rewards" people who will continue playing horrible because the run is handed to them every time, since other people don't wanna wipe or "waste their time".

The part about personal responsibility is just wrong. Personal responsibility is you fuck up, you get punished. As opposed to group responsibility where someone else fucks up and everyone is punished, including you. Which is exactly how group play in wow is designed. And that's why it reinforces toxic behaviour like scapegoating, responsibility shifting or leeching off others' efforts.

Group responsibility can somewhat work in small, closed communities where if a person doesn't pull their weight or is a blatant freeloader people will know it and start treating them as a pariah. It doesn't work in anonymous pugging community where the freeloader gets the same r.io and chances for loot as the guy who pulled him through. So we have a flawed system that encourages leeching.

[solvexx]

It's called "replying to the quoted part".

10 years on MMO-C and I still see people replying with shorter post to a 3-times longer quote because they don't trim what they actually refer to. Not relevant to your specific reply, but happens a lot.

Point is, your argument is the same as people saying you shouldn't leave a horrible group because it's a bigger timewaste to leave run 50 mins in than finish it. On the other hand finishing it "rewards" people who will continue playing horrible because the run is handed to them every time, since other people don't wanna wipe or "waste their time".

The part about personal responsibility is just wrong. Personal responsibility is you fuck up, you get punished. As opposed to group responsibility where someone else fucks up and everyone is punished, including you. Which is exactly how group play in wow is designed. And that's why it reinforces toxic behaviour like scapegoating, responsibility shifting or leeching off others' efforts.

Group responsibility can somewhat work in small, closed communities where if a person doesn't pull their weight or is a blatant freeloader people will know it and start treating them as a pariah. It doesn't work in anonymous pugging community where the freeloader gets the same r.io and chances for loot as the guy who pulled him through. So we have a flawed system that encourages leeching.

Obligatory.. You must be fun at parties.

[Marrilaife]

Obligatory.. You must be fun at parties.

Obligatory ad hominem, what's new on MMO-C.

[Zantera]

I've NEVER seen the tank do the burning on the last boss. 80% of the time it's the healer, the other 20% it's ranged dps.

[Matthias]

If it makes you feel any better I recently 16+++ Waynecrest Manor.....and I have no understanding of this flame mechanic you're speaking of .

I've always heard something about fire, but as far as I'm concerned this is a tank and spank with an Obelisk up, so I'm focused on burning it. I play a tank and my healer is a Paladin whose in melee range so I guess I've been carried by my ranged this entire time.

Next time I do the dungeon and my team has no BM Hunter I'll be a pal and take care of it so they can focus on deepz. Thanks for the lesson.

[Saltysquidoon]

9000 times out of 10 in a low level 5man PuG the person screeching about doing a mechanic and then not doing it themselves is in the wrong. Because A. They know the mechanic an B. In said content basically anyone can do any mechanic.

As someone who plays an aforementioned "slowass DK", I have been the running rounding doing mechanics for ranged/the healer or as the tank doing literally every non-personal mechanic while the dps all AFK burn. Unfortunately, if you want smooth pugs you have to be ready to do every mechanic.

Given that it's pretty safe to say the locks a dick for talking a big game but preferring to fail then torch some adds. special mention to the obligatory huntard that didn't repair before the run too.

[Sentynel]

2 years into the expansion and there are still people who don't know the dungeons?

[crakerjack]

Regardless of my role, I try to do the vial/burn mechanic on the last boss. If I'm tanking, I'll try to do it, if I'm DPSing I'll try to do it and if I'm healing I'll try to do it. The issue is that people in WoW just flat out suck. Not everyone, but there's a large portion of people out there that can't even play their class right, like they don't even do the rotation properly and I feel like that should be basics. So when they start doing dungeons, they're too overwhelmed with trying to do their rotation that they completely neglect mechanics and hope they can be healed through it. Accidents happen, but when someone is fucking up time after time and they show no improvement, I don't ever want to do any m+/raids with them again.

As a tank I also try to tackle explosives because my dps is shit compared to DPS as far as ceiling goes. I don't want to have my DPS feel pressured to switch off of the boss/adds to target explosives, especially when it's just 1-2 that I can deal w/ myself. Ofc if there's a lot that spawn due to a big pack, you'll need help, but I feel like explosive is a tank mechanic first, then a dps mechanic if there's an overwhelming amount or one spawns away from the group. I guess it's just my background with sports, but I had a coach very early on in my life tell me that to succeed in any team based activity, the best thing you can do is make those around you better. So if I can remove the hassle of doing mechanics for other players around me, especially as a tank, I'm going to do that and hope the DPS/heals perform their best and don't slack off.

[Bigbazz]

In that group it should be the healer or one of the BM Hunters, depending on how much healing was needed. It's something that in most groups someone just takes it on themselves to do (regardless of what role/class you think "should"), and that applies to similar mechanics in other dungeons too. Sometimes a dungeon is just above your pay grade though, but if you stick through it the learning experience will at least help you next time.

Um...no offense but any M+ under 10 is a joke. Like how can a group fail so badly AND at the end of the expansion?

I really hate it when people bail on a M+ but there are...SOME groups that are really unsalvageble.

The difficulty is relative to your gear and experience/knowledge of the encounters, what is the point in a comment like this other than to be an asshole? At the end of the expansion is irrelevant if you just started playing in 8.3 you have no prior knowledge of anything, and a hell of a lot of new players (or returning players) are playing right now, especially with gearing alts.

For example. I did Mechagon Junkyard last week for the first time this expansion, on M+15 doing a friends key... And it was a shitshow on my part, I didn't have a fucking clue what was going on, where I was going, any of the mechanics and I died several times, we beat the timer in spite of the fact that I just wasn't prepared for doing that dungeon on +15 with my experience/gear. But had I learned and familiarised myself with the dungeon in a more organic progressive way by the time I was doing +15's for the weekly cache it would have been casual and easy for me.

[Twdft]

I've NEVER seen the tank do the burning on the last boss. 80% of the time it's the healer, the other 20% it's ranged dps.

If noone else is doing it, I am as a tank. Not nearly optimal because you have to track were adds are dieing. Which they would on top of the boss if anyone else does the mechanic. But I rather run around burning corpses instead of wiping. Only happens in low m+ when people don't know the dungeon so I explain after the fight.

[tehealadin]

Like I said, I did them on the second attempt. And the orbs.

On the first one I assumed, and by the time it was clear no one was going to do them, we were getting overwhelmed. I'd pick it up, but there would be like 2 or 3 ads up already and only 1 dps was focusing on the ads, with only me focusing on the orbs, so we would kill one and burn it, but there would already be 1 or 2 still up, it was a mess. However I am glad my question was answered, it usually isn't suppose to be the tanks job (I don't mind taking them if it is right next to me, I am not suggesting that tanks never should).

In future I will make sure when tanking to explain that mechanic to the group to hopefully avoid confusion. I mean, I get it, you do need to be able to communicate in a group, at the same time I don't think it is too much to ask for players joining a pug to have some knowledge of the instance, or to ask when we get to a point if there is anything to look out for, though I get why some players fear doing this. I usually welcome someone asking, because at least then you can fill them in and mistakes are unlikely to happen, you help them grow as a player, but not everyone see's it that way and can get rather hostile if someone asks what to do.

Not going to argue with the people saying it was my fault because I didn't take responsibility quick enough for the failings of the others so therefore they aren't to blame, we see things differently, and won't change each others minds.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

Better question is why did the guy with the broken weapon not do it if his damage didn't matter?

[Great Destiny Man]

Like I said, I did them on the second attempt. And the orbs.

On the first one I assumed, and by the time it was clear no one was going to do them, we were getting overwhelmed. I'd pick it up, but there would be like 2 or 3 ads up already and only 1 dps was focusing on the ads, with only me focusing on the orbs, so we would kill one and burn it, but there would already be 1 or 2 still up, it was a mess. However I am glad my question was answered, it usually isn't suppose to be the tanks job (I don't mind taking them if it is right next to me, I am not suggesting that tanks never should).

In future I will make sure when tanking to explain that mechanic to the group to hopefully avoid confusion. I mean, I get it, you do need to be able to communicate in a group, at the same time I don't think it is too much to ask for players joining a pug to have some knowledge of the instance, or to ask when we get to a point if there is anything to look out for, though I get why some players fear doing this. I usually welcome someone asking, because at least then you can fill them in and mistakes are unlikely to happen, you help them grow as a player, but not everyone see's it that way and can get rather hostile if someone asks what to do.

Not going to argue with the people saying it was my fault because I didn't take responsibility quick enough for the failings of the others so therefore they aren't to blame, we see things differently, and won't change each others minds.

It's one of those things where there's a number of viable methods, but you can't really argue about what's most efficient. As a healer it's hands down more effective for me to do the torch duty and let everyone focus on their jobs, but I've had many a time where ranged classes like BM hunter have assisted with it because they've been closer to the torch spawn.

I don't really mind that people in <10 keys may not know things well, but I'm going to be less tolerant of people giving vitriol to people for not following their flawed understanding of effective strategies.

[Jester Joe]

Tanks have the easiest job so if the tank can do it they should, otherwise as someone who mains BM, a BM should never not pick up the slack if someone else fails to - it's not like it affects their dps at all

Dragging around the boss nonstop just makes it annoying for no reason.

Not to mention, but the adds that get summoned in jump to a player, so if you're constantly moving the boss, ranged are going to have to keep repositioning otherwise you'll end up with adds jumping all around and ending up out of melee cleave range.

Unless its an affix like quaking/volcanic, everyone should be stacked up in melee range besides whoevers running out to get the fire when it drops it.

A tank would be the worst for that. Stuff like Twilight Devastation further punishes heavy movement too.

[pennywise377]

Pro tip tank wise for pug environment: move the boss a bit towards the entrance, that way you are already close to lamps and can collect in case you have retards. It also narrows the space for ranged that somehow love to stay as far from boss as possible and allows you to collect adds with ease as a result.

Mechanic itself is a healer responsibility, with dps/tank acting as backup in early part of boss when you have active pillars as dmg intake may be too big for healer to safely move around. Outside of that it is always healers job.

[Eapoe]

Sorry for posting this kind of thing, but I'd like some wider perspective on this.

Just did a WM+7 run on my tank. Things went fine until the triad, the dps didn't know you had to move around to stop the dot stack, so we wiped a few times until we got it. Then we got to the end boss, one of the dps said their weapon broke so wasn't doing any damage, so we only had 1 shot at the end boss to get it in time, which we didn't get.

What I wanted to ask was whose responsibility is it to get the light thing to burn the ads? We had a lock and 2 BM hunters. It would drop behind them and they would ignore it. First attempt we had about 5 or 6 ads before we died. The lock, who was the leader blamed me for the wipe. We got it the second time, I had to tank, kill the ads, the leader was screaming at people to focus them, despite not doing it himself, I also had to kill the explosive orbs, and had to constantly move the boss around to get to the light things to burn the ads because the 3 ranged dps and healer refused to do it. So I was blamed, though I blamed them for not getting the light things, the amount of times it spawned right next to them, far away from me, and I had to delay moving to get it because I had to kill an orb. I always assumed it was whoever was closest, especially if you are range, I'd never took it as the tanks job. Am I wrong?

Every time I’ve done it we either rely on the healer or myself (BM Hunter) as it doesn’t really affect my damage or their healing to move to it. If you don’t have a mobile rdps then I’d assume it would fall onto the healer.

[Zantera]

If noone else is doing it, I am as a tank. Not nearly optimal because you have to track were adds are dieing. Which they would on top of the boss if anyone else does the mechanic. But I rather run around burning corpses instead of wiping. Only happens in low m+ when people don't know the dungeon so I explain after the fight.

I mean sure, that's just what I call logical thinking and being a proactive player (thinking ahead when others do not). But on the flip side I would never blame the tank for not doing it if nobody else is.