Is Trump worse than Bush?

[Felya]

I keep on saying they actually did shit. Which you ignore. There is no would or could. They actually did shit. Bush had a high approval rating which he used to start two wars and deregulate or underfund a bunch of stuff including the EPA. WHY CAN'T YOU GRASP THIS?

Trump has no special circumstances besides controlling both houses. He had the power and accomplished very little. Executive orders only get you so far. Most of his accomplishments were either overturned by the courts or will be overturned by the next Dem president. Trump is not powerful and I have never claimed that he is.

The bold is crazy Trump logic... Just because Trump is reversing everything Obama did, doesn’t mean Obama did nothing.

[Ivanstone]

The bold is crazy Trump logic... Just because Trump is reversing everything Obama did, doesn’t mean Obama did nothing.

Obama did lots of stuff. He also had to do a bunch of rules that were overturned by Trump since they were not legislative. Those same rules can be brought back by the next Dem president.

Sometimes you just have to look at the net result. If the net result is zero or negative than was anything actually accomplished? This is why Trump is a better president than Bush. Its not that Trump did anything to earn that position but his actions taken as a whole are simply less worse than Bush's. Obama is leagues better than both but being able to have a lasting improvement is important and some of his actions are proving to be more ephemeral than everyone hoped.

Nixon, for example, begrudgingly formed the EPA and despite the fuckery from subsequent GOP politicians its still around and still doing some positive work.

[Loga Almandar]

Just to clarify my poor wording: Bush was a terrible president and it still enrages me that not a single soul out of the bucket of war criminals got persecuted to the end. As one of the internal results, public critic inthe USA is still on the level of "we shouldnt have gone there".
Still, this forum would not exist in Trumps dream world. America would not exist. He would keep the name, but reality or discussion..too dangerous for a conman.
Bush had a lot of (unwarranted) momentum after 9/11, and his greatest failure was the external reaction to the actions of a small terrorist group, instead of saying no the warhawks. There are still people of islam faith living openly in the Land of Freedom - if the big future frame was too big for your imagination, try that with Trump in the equation.

[Draco-Onis]

I keep on saying they actually did shit. Which you ignore. There is no would or could. They actually did shit. Bush had a high approval rating which he used to start two wars and deregulate or underfund a bunch of stuff including the EPA. WHY CAN'T YOU GRASP THIS?

Trump has no special circumstances besides controlling both houses. He had the power and accomplished very little. Executive orders only get you so far. Most of his accomplishments were either overturned by the courts or will be overturned by the next Dem president. Trump is not powerful and I have never claimed that he is.

You have just contradicted yourself and proven my point, I stated that Trump has taken everything previous republicans have done to the next level and you've retreated to foreign policy. I am going to state the obvious there isn't a single scenario where you put Trump in place of Bush where he doesn't do worse. Trump put in the Muslim ban decade after 9/11, if Trump was president during that time he wouldn't have reacted as Bush did.

You are clearly delusional if you think Trump is better than Bush, I will state again there are degrees to this. Bush deregulated and underfunded the EPA but he never shut it down or appointed a coal lobbying that basically turned it into the environmental pollution agency. Don't get me wrong Bush was a bad president but Trump is leagues above anyone else when it comes to down to it.

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Just to clarify my poor wording: Bush was a terrible president and it still enrages me that not a single soul out of the bucket of war criminals got persecuted to the end. As one of the internal results, public critic inthe USA is still on the level of "we shouldnt have gone there".
Still, this forum would not exist in Trumps dream world. America would not exist. He would keep the name, but reality or discussion..too dangerous for a conman.
Bush had a lot of (unwarranted) momentum after 9/11, and his greatest failure was the external reaction to the actions of a small terrorist group, instead of saying no the warhawks. There are still people of islam faith living openly in the Land of Freedom - if the big future frame was too big for your imagination, try that with Trump in the equation.

Pretty much this, if Trump had his way he would turn this country into another authoritarian hell hole Bush had more than enough opportunity and political capital to make that happen but didn't.

[Cosmic Janitor]

Bush was an idiot and had a badly thought out war policy, but I don't think you can beat the internal and external damage the US received under Trump. Heck I think Trump as permanently damaged the office of the potus itself. Before Trump a scandal was reason to resign from office, under Trump it's now established that you can be a raging lunatic and get away with it.

[Ivanstone]

You have just contradicted yourself and proven my point, I stated that Trump has taken everything previous republicans have done to the next level and you've retreated to foreign policy. I am going to state the obvious there isn't a single scenario where you put Trump in place of Bush where he doesn't do worse. Trump put in the Muslim ban decade after 9/11, if Trump was president during that time he wouldn't have reacted as Bush did.

You are clearly delusional if you think Trump is better than Bush, I will state again there are degrees to this. Bush deregulated and underfunded the EPA but he never shut it down or appointed a coal lobbying that basically turned it into the environmental pollution agency. Don't get me wrong Bush was a bad president but Trump is leagues above anyone else when it comes to down to it.

First of all, foreign policy is part of the job. When that foreign policy starts two wars that's a huge mark against a presidency. That alone is enough to make Bush a worse president.

Unfortunately for your argument Bush's domestic policy was also worse than Trumps. Granted Trump may defeat him on this front but driving the economy off of a cliff because your financial policy is corrosive is pretty hard to beat.

The only area where Trump is unequivocally worse is immigration policy. Bush was just smart enough to understand that he's better off with the latino vote. He might have even understood that America's food industry relies heavily on immigration. So naturally one of the best things he would tried to do was torpedoed by his own party. Which underscores that the GOP is the problem and not Trump.

Lastly about the EPA shutdown you keep on harping about:
https://www.theguardian.com/environm...ng-coronavirus
"Polluters will be able to ignore some environmental laws as long as they can claim in some way these violations were caused by the Covid-19 pandemic. "
That's hardly carte blanche. Furthermore, EPA officials have less ability to do their jobs because of the pandemic anyways.

Pretty much this, if Trump had his way he would turn this country into another authoritarian hell hole Bush had more than enough opportunity and political capital to make that happen but didn't.

This is hypothetical. The only political capital a president needs is strong approval from his supporters and both houses of congresses. The support of a majority state's governments are certainly a bonus. Trump had all that. He got fuck all done because he's a bozo who hired other bozos. Trump's a bad president because he's an asshole and incompetent but the latter prevents the former from being worse. Hell, he's too much of a coward to do anything really dangerous.

Trump's presidency isn't finished yet. There's still some time to start a war and his covid response is pretty bad. The economy is weak but that problem isn't structural at the moment. His covid response was made much worse by the GOP at the state level so its not entirely his fault.

[Draco-Onis]

First of all, foreign policy is part of the job. When that foreign policy starts two wars that's a huge mark against a presidency. That alone is enough to make Bush a worse president.

You only get the Iraq war there's no way no president wouldn't have gone to Afghanistan after 9/11, the handling of it is another matter.

Lastly about the EPA shutdown you keep on harping about:
https://www.theguardian.com/environm...ng-coronavirus
"Polluters will be able to ignore some environmental laws as long as they can claim in some way these violations were caused by the Covid-19 pandemic. "
That's hardly carte blanche. Furthermore, EPA officials have less ability to do their jobs because of the pandemic anyways.

The EPA says the EPA is totally not giving carte blanche instead of you know the statement and things they have said that all rules and enforcement is suspended which is basically we are shutting down. Geeh golly it's almost like the EPA officials are towing the line because their jobs depends on it.

This is hypothetical.

Only if you ignore EVERYTHING TRUMP HAS SAID AND DONE IN THE LAST 4 YEARS, he literally calls people who disagree with him traitors and loudly talking about the good old days where you would just kill them. That's not even going into his love of dictators and his support of their policies like concentration camps.

[Ivanstone]

You only get the Iraq war there's no way no president wouldn't have gone to Afghanistan after 9/11, the handling of it is another matter.

I don't think even the Afghan war was necessary. There's no guarantee that OBL was even in country when it happened and for the majority of the war he was hiding in Pakistan. It was like trying to swat a fly with a sledgehammer wielded by a blind man.

The EPA says the EPA is totally not giving carte blanche instead of you know the statement and things they have said that all rules and enforcement is suspended which is basically we are shutting down. Geeh golly it's almost like the EPA officials are towing the line because their jobs depends on it.

Still not shutdown. Stop changing the facts.

Only if you ignore EVERYTHING TRUMP HAS SAID AND DONE IN THE LAST 4 YEARS, he literally calls people who disagree with him traitors and loudly talking about the good old days where you would just kill them. That's not even going into his love of dictators and his support of their policies like concentration camps.

Trump's a blowhard and the US has considerable checks and balances. Trump the Asshole is firmly held in check by Trump the Incompetent and American bureaucracy.

[Draco-Onis]

I don't think even the Afghan war was necessary. There's no guarantee that OBL was even in country when it happened and for the majority of the war he was hiding in Pakistan. It was like trying to swat a fly with a sledgehammer wielded by a blind man.

At the time he was in Afghanistan and only moved to Pakistan later on.

Still not shutdown. Stop changing the facts.

My fault they just AREN'T DOING THEIR FUCKING JOBS /facepalm.

Trump's a blowhard and the US has considerable checks and balances. Trump the Asshole is firmly held in check by Trump the Incompetent and American bureaucracy.

But that is not what I said I stated that if Trump had the power to do so that would be his vision of the US, can you honestly say Bush would turn this country into an authoritarian hell hole like Trump would?

[Ivanstone]

At the time he was in Afghanistan and only moved to Pakistan later on.

That's still an insufficient reason to go to war. As Obama later proved taking out OBL was always going to be an intelligence operation. Even if the Taliban decided to give up OBL because of the war, OBL would've just moved on to somewhere else.

My fault they just AREN'T DOING THEIR FUCKING JOBS /facepalm.

No just misrepresenting the facts.

But that is not what I said I stated that if Trump had the power to do so that would be his vision of the US, can you honestly say Bush would turn this country into an authoritarian hell hole like Trump would?

Trump doesn't have the skill to wield that kind of power. He barely has the skill to do what he's doing now. Bush ably proved that lies can cause far, far more damage.

[Draco-Onis]

Trump doesn't have the skill to wield that kind of power. He barely has the skill to do what he's doing now. Bush ably proved that lies can cause far, far more damage.

Your argument boils down to that I am right but Trump is just too dumb to pull it off /doublefacepalm.

Yeah I am going to not take that gamble and stick with the guy who doesn't want to turn the US into North Korea.

[Ivanstone]

Your argument boils down to that I am right but Trump is just too dumb to pull it off /doublefacepalm.

Yeah I am going to not take that gamble and stick with the guy who doesn't want to turn the US into North Korea.

Results matter. Trump isn't the one you should be worried about. Its the next guy who talks like a Trump but has ability like a McConnell. The latter is still the worst person in US politics.

[Draco-Onis]

Results matter. Trump isn't the one you should be worried about. Its the next guy who talks like a Trump but has ability like a McConnell. The latter is still the worst person in US politics.

You are partially right Trump is not the one to worry about but his army of helpers like Barr who are making the guard rails of democracy creak and his authoritarian dreams a reality. The results are clear the most corrupt and destructive administration of our time. I mean just think of how much he has expanded executive power and lower the bar.

[Ivanstone]

You are partially right Trump is not the one to worry about but his army of helpers like Barr who are making the guard rails of democracy creak and his authoritarian dreams a reality. The results are clear the most corrupt and destructive administration of our time. I mean just think of how much he has expanded executive power and lower the bar.

Barr isn't a problem because of Trump. Barr is a problem because of Nixon. Barr is one of a group of lawyers who believe in executive power and this group exists because of Nixon's resignation.

Furthermore, it wasn't Trump who expanded executive power. Its been an ongoing problem for a long time. Trump is barely on pace to beat Reagan (159 vs 381). Obama did shit tonnes of executive orders. FDR did more than anyone by far although he had a legit war and an actual economic crisis to deal with.

The problem with executive power is it can easily be overturned by the next guy in office. I expect Biden to do a bunch as soon as he hits office.

[Draco-Onis]

Barr isn't a problem because of Trump. Barr is a problem because of Nixon. Barr is one of a group of lawyers who believe in executive power and this group exists because of Nixon's resignation.

Furthermore, it wasn't Trump who expanded executive power. Its been an ongoing problem for a long time. Trump is barely on pace to beat Reagan (159 vs 381). Obama did shit tonnes of executive orders. FDR did more than anyone by far although he had a legit war and an actual economic crisis to deal with.

The problem with executive power is it can easily be overturned by the next guy in office. I expect Biden to do a bunch as soon as he hits office.

Of course Trump is the problem because he is the one abusing the power to say he isn't you are basically dismissing the murderer and blaming the murder weapon. Of course congress needs to reign in executive power and do their jobs but anyone else wouldn't be abusing it to the level Trump is which is my point.

[Ivanstone]

Of course Trump is the problem because he is the one abusing the power to say he isn't you are basically dismissing the murderer and blaming the murder weapon. Of course congress needs to reign in executive power and do their jobs but anyone else wouldn't be abusing it to the level Trump is which is my point.

Except your point ignores history.
Eisenhower - 484
Kennedy -214
Johnson - 325
Nixon - 346
Ford - 169
Carter - 320
Reagan - 381
Bush - 166
Clinton - 364
Bush2 - 291
Obama - 276
Trump - 161 (it grew!)

I'm not going to go through each order with a fine tooth comb. Its fair to assume that most of Trumps orders are shitty but also poorly written and sometimes not even legal. However, I'm also going to assume that Nixon, Ford, Reagan (especially Reagan) and both Bush's aren't much better because the GOP is an aggressively shitty party. They're not shitty because Trump is shitty. They're shitty because their policies are terrible and their voters are terrible. Trump has never been the problem.

[Draco-Onis]

Except your point ignores history.
Eisenhower - 484
Kennedy -214
Johnson - 325
Nixon - 346
Ford - 169
Carter - 320
Reagan - 381
Bush - 166
Clinton - 364
Bush2 - 291
Obama - 276
Trump - 161 (it grew!)

I'm not going to go through each order with a fine tooth comb. Its fair to assume that most of Trumps orders are shitty but also poorly written and sometimes not even legal. However, I'm also going to assume that Nixon, Ford, Reagan (especially Reagan) and both Bush's aren't much better because the GOP is an aggressively shitty party. They're not shitty because Trump is shitty. They're shitty because their policies are terrible and their voters are terrible. Trump has never been the problem.

What does the number of executive orders matter? The substance is the problem. At this point I am questioning why you keep giving Trump a free pass on everything and keep blaming the system.

[Felya]

Except your point ignores history.

Now... list how many emergency declarations Trump has made versus all the presidents you listed.

[Ivanstone]

What does the number of executive orders matter? The substance is the problem. At this point I am questioning why you keep giving Trump a free pass on everything and keep blaming the system.

It shows that they are out of control.

I am not giving Trump a free pass. I'm just pointing out that there's nothing remarkable about Trump's actions. He is a monster but constantly focusing on Trump effectively absolves current and past GOP of their crimes. Trump is literally nothing without Mitch McConnell.

Every economic crisis that's happened in the past 40 years is in part derived from Reagan's loathsome economic policies yet he's considered to be a "great" president. Why?

A lot of horseshit constantly goes down at the state level and most of that in GOP states. Is that Trump's fault?

Here's an illustration of state politics. Brian Kemp and Mike DeWine both stole their governorship's in 2018 yet you almost never hear about DeWine. Well maybe its because Kemp is loud and stupid (like Trump) and draws attention to himself. DeWine by comparison is quiet and at least takes his job seriously. He's still a fucking thief though.

Dubya is still a piece of shit but whilst he was being a piece of shit, the money groups within the GOP started to conspire to effectively seal the GOP's grip on power by manipulating the 2010 election. Which they did successfully! Sure it helped that they were able to further weaponize the racist vote but that doesn't change that they were already planning well ahead of whoever won the 2008 presidency.

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Now... list how many emergency declarations Trump has made versus all the presidents you listed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._United_States
Click it. If you dare.

[Felya]

I am not giving Trump a free pass. I'm just pointing out that there's nothing remarkable about Trump's actions. He is a monster but constantly focusing on Trump effectively absolves current and past GOP of their crimes. Trump is literally nothing without Mitch McConnell.

That is giving him a free pass. By this logic, you will be complaining about Trump, when he is in the past.

Every economic crisis that's happened in the past 40 years is in part derived from Reagan's loathsome economic policies yet he's considered to be a "great" president. Why?

Because of a majority of republicans? Not even all, since both Ayn Rand and Goldwater spoke up against Reagan at the time.

A lot of horseshit constantly goes down at the state level and most of that in GOP states. Is that Trump's fault?

As much as it’s their fault for Trump’s actions... you are saying that focus on Trump distracts from state level issues, while I’m saying focusing on state level issues is distracting from Trump’s national action. I’m well versed on what Inslee is doing, but it’s not relevant to the national debate.

Here's an illustration of state politics. Brian Kemp and Mike DeWine both stole their governorship's in 2018 yet you almost never hear about DeWine. Well maybe its because Kemp is loud and stupid (like Trump) and draws attention to himself. DeWine by comparison is quiet and at least takes his job seriously. He's still a fucking thief though.

What did your local news do about it?

Dubya is still a piece of shit but whilst he was being a piece of shit, the money groups within the GOP started to conspire to effectively seal the GOP's grip on power by manipulating the 2010 election. Which they did successfully! Sure it helped that they were able to further weaponize the racist vote but that doesn't change that they were already planning well ahead of whoever won the 2008 presidency.

Yes, while Trump explicitly stated that mail in voting is his biggest threat. Is that a national or state issue? Is that part of GOP plan that Trump is pushing or something new, as a response to some pandemic Trump fucked up?

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Click it. If you dare.

I did before asking you... list them... (it’s still open in a tab)

Edit: To be completely transparent... read the right column... I’m going to focus on the one stating “first time in history diverting fund allocated by Congress”....