The Last of Us Part II

[Tech614]

I have never, ever said the game won't sell.

Nope you just grasp at straws and claim physical sales don't matter? For a SP console game? LMFAO. Sure thing my dude.

[Relapses]

Heartstopping gameplay
God bless naughty dog
Most important videogame story ever told
Greatest video game of all time

Are people not allowed to express these opinions if that's genuinely how they feel? Of the ones you mentioned, only "greatest video game of all time" seems suspiciously out of the ordinary. Even then, who are we to rebuke one person's opinion simply because they write for a publication which reviews games? Despite the conspiracy theories there doesn't seem to be a huge benefit for reviewers to prop up their rhetoric and it's not like being fair and honest is going to cause huge backlash. After playing the game, none of the glowing reviews are a surprise to me even though I firmly sit on the "glass half empty" side of my view of the game. The fact that there are so many people who cannot even accept that somebody could play TLoU2 and have a positive opinion without some incorporeal monetary driving force is what is most frustrating about this discussion. That is not a healthy way to start a rational discourse and I'd say that multiple people within the industry (and especially those who worked in the industry and have since left and thus have no horse left in the race) all saying the same thing leads me to believe that sometimes a spade is a spade. It's easy to cynically deride major publications as being inherently biased by the unseeing hand of corporate greed; it's much harder to simply accept that any two people may look at the same piece of artwork and walk with entirely different, often polarizing takes. I think this is the crux of Ms. Pearce's argument.

It doesn't matter where the pressure is coming from: Intra profession, not that people try and impress their colleagues in real professions; Inter profession be that inducements or fear of censure; Community backlash; or; The weird tribalist internet shit. If you buckle to that pressure then your review isn't worth the paper it's written on, it is just that simple.

While I agree with the gist of what you're saying the problem with game journalists isn't that their opinions are pressured to skew in any one certain direction, rather that sometimes the audience for which their work is primarily consumed is much different than the one which most laypeople identify themselves with. As Ms. Pearce outlined, game reviews have a very small impact on the actual performance of a video game's sales. (Star Wars: Battlefront II is great example of this. Its developers have the distinct privilege of pride and accomplishment for the single most downvoted comment of all time on reddit; yet the game still sold just fine.) There's a pervasive disconnect I think between discussion forums like this and the rest of the general audience of people who play video games. We're looking at a microcosm of a microcosm. It's extremely easy to find people in this thread who will hop on the "FUCK BIG CORPO, GAME JOURNOS ARE PAID, REVOLT AGAINST THE SYSTEM" bandwagon... but that doesn't mean that the overwhelming majority of players feel this way.

I don't agree with her that "5/10 isn't average" and IGN's scores are pretty much always at least a 7 because they only review big games and big games are more likely to be good. That's just absolute nonsense.

Honestly, I was inclined to agree with you initially but this was explained in the video. Her defense was qualified by adding that a vast majority of games which would fall into the "1-5" category simply aren't reviewed because nobody would bother reading said reviews. It's a form a confirmation bias -- if all you're ever reviewing are triple-A games that are the result of immeasurable hours of quality control and polish then naturally your review scores will skew towards the higher end of the spectrum. Since these are the only games most people care about being reviewed, it has a bit of an ouroboros effect.

It's absolutely a fair point that streamers get paid off to stream and shill games and no one seems to care about that. I'm not personally 12 so I don't watch streams often but this practice needs to be stamped out or the requirements of disclosure should be set at a level where a child could understand they are being advertised too and not receiving a legitimate experience.

This is a bit out of left field because I don't think anybody really needs to be paid to play TLoU2 on stream for the game to be successful. I do agree that streaming games, in general, is a bit shysty since it is an indirect form of advertisement but I don't really see how it pertains to the discussion at hand.

This post has got unnecessarily long so to summarize my views:

1.) I believe game journos expressing positive opinions about games which are received poorly by the portions of the internet who frequent discussion forums is not evidence of a greater conspiracy of the influence of money dictating said opinions. 2.) There may be issues with the game reviewing industry as a whole but we are unlikely to see any positive change if all we do is blow up the Twitter feeds of people who dared to publicize their positive opinion of a video game. 3.) The basis of this issue is inherently human, just on a much larger scale -- some people like vanilla, some chocolate. If TLoU2's story isn't your cup of tea, that's fine; but your personal distaste doesn't discredit anybody else's opinion.

Jesus, even my tl,dr is too long.

I'm out.

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

You keep raising this as though it's a catch-all. Genre fiction has fantastical elements, either sword and sorcery, speculative science, whatever. But beyond that direct "buy" the story asks of you, everything else should feel plausible and real within that context. What about an imaginary zombie fungus changes the physiology of otherwise ordinary people? I mean, why can't Ellie just fly? The whole game is unrealistic, right?

I'm sorry, I don't get selective about my realism. Its one of the reason the first one wasn't that great. Ellie can't fly because humans can't fly without machinery... That is a really bad counterpoint.

So much unrealistic shit happens in the game but people focus on the one thing that actually has logical reason. She had a camp with several other survivors. Trained her ass off for 5-7 years. I do think. they went to far but it was explained. Her appearance in the original reveal trailer was a lot better in my opinion.

- - - Updated - - -

This weird thing you have with trying to get gotchas on me is getting strange I must confess. I have never, ever said the game won't sell. I would not at all be surprised if it does become number, it was the most hyped up Sony game ever, not to mention the current events in the world, people probably have more time from not working and more money from not being able to go out - in a way it's a great time to release a game.

How am I grasping at staws when I'm literally pointing out facts, that article only has boxed numbers, so anything else suggested is pure conjecture.

And it's always important to remember;

How much something money something makes =/= How good it is as a piece of art, or we all agree Fortnite is the best game ever made and the MCU is objectively the best set of films

Fortnite was one of the better competitive games released... That shit took skill than epic fucked it up but man that game has a steep learning curve.

[kamuimac]

still clearly better game then 0.6 rated warcraft refunded

but overall it seeems whole world is waiting only for cyberpunk and just ignores the bs sjw propaganda games

[Relapses]

Did you see the shit fit the ign gal threw on twitter? Calling people virgins because they dared not like the game. Of course you got reeeeeset era claiming the "alt-right" are review bombing. When people like any Schumer claim that. It kinda loses it's impact. This is the last the last jedi redux. Were criticism is hand waved and one's labeled a (x) instead of actually talking. It's tiring as hell.

Yes, because the only people who can like a video game that other people don't like are paid industry shills who don't have the backbone to reach the precipice of the realm of enlightened gamers who frequent internet message boards and subscribe to The Quartering.

Like fuck man, really?

[Tech614]

Jesus dude. If you're shilling this hard I hope you're at least being paid.

So shilling is pointing out facts now? Facts that are inconvenient for your agenda that thought the game was gonna flop?

It's called serving crow.

[Relapses]

Lol dude i don't care if someone likes a game i don't or not. I care when they hand wave criticism and label me a (x) because i didn't enjoy a game. Or using my last jedi example is thre perfect comparison. I play games like atelier series, jrpgs and stuff like rimworld and kerbal space program. Im not a huge main stream gamer by any means

If some one doesn't like a game i like. Im not going to call them a Philistine and then try to gate keep the game.

You're calling people who have positive opinions of TLoU2 shills. That is a form of gatekeeping.

[Swnem]

My take on this is that all reviews are opinions. Some people have different opinions (and value different things) and some need to learn to respect that.

Now, what is not ok is the gaming media butting in on it and Drukman escalating the situation. Some professionalism, please. There is nothing wrong with people expressing their opinions.

[Jastall]

Apparently you can get the full experience of the game by watching on youtube...im all for game movies like god of war but that was a big too much.

That aside, the story to me is obnoxious in many levels, at least the memes coming up are amazing

God of War had gameplay that was more than good enough to warrant actually playing it, however.

[Malix Farwin]

https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articl...ords-uk-charts

Sony's fastest selling game of all time in the UK, ahead of Uncharted 4 and Spider-Man. 76% higher launch then the original. Also the biggest launch of the year topping Animal Crossing.

https://twitter.com/BenjiSales/statu...56197976023040



Oooooooooooops all those guys that said the sales where gonna bomb and especially the guy with "fallout 4 I mean 76 vibes".

Vast majority said that it would sell well. dunno where you finding these people outside of trolls who said otherwise. Why are we using UK instead of NA sales though. To put it in perspective, the Last Jedi sold well and the last season of Game of Thrones had high viewership count.

[Tech614]

I am? Im calling people like tech one... because he is

Look up the definition of the word shill. If you still think I'm a shill afterwards thanks for the compliment I guess.

- - - Updated - - -

Vast majority said that it would sell well.

Sure they did. This thread was literally filled with people for all of May claiming it was going to flop both critically and financially when neither is the case they have now goalpost shifted to "but but but the players hate it!" and "critics where paid off!"(while providing no evidence of such).

Whatever revisionist history you're going for I don't have time to humor it. We all saw reality.

[Saltysquidoon]

I don't know man, I've played some pretty damn good games in my time and never thought about imploring God to bless the developer.

Honestly, I was inclined to agree with you initially but this was explained in the video. Her defense was qualified by adding that a vast majority of games which would fall into the "1-5" category simply aren't reviewed because nobody would bother reading said reviews. It's a form a confirmation bias -- if all you're ever reviewing are triple-A games that are the result of immeasurable hours of quality control and polish then naturally your review scores will skew towards the higher end of the spectrum. Since these are the only games most people care about being reviewed, it has a bit of an ouroboros effect.

I know she was saying that there is a confirmation bias which is likely true in part but it still doesn't stand up imo.
First of all, Fallout 76 at launch was not a 5/10 game it was a nonfunctional naked cashgrab fully deserving of a 0, extrapolating from that the idea that merely having a AAA budget imputes some minimum level of quality is just wrong?
Secondly; Merely actually possessing a functional level of polish shouldn't automatically translate into a 7. Sports ball 2025 or whatever other made by committee microtransaction infested annual slop EA, ubisoft and Actiblizz shit out that is technically competent but does nothing to improve upon its previous iteration shouldn't just eternally be average because they know the same people will buy it every year no matter what.
Finally; From a purely functional PoV if they're just going to use 5-10 why not just use 1-5 at that point?

This is a bit out of left field because I don't think anybody really needs to be paid to play TLoU2 on stream for the game to be successful. I do agree that streaming games, in general, is a bit shysty since it is an indirect form of advertisement but I don't really see how it pertains to the discussion at hand

I was responding to comment the AGC guy made (which I was admittedly unclear about), It was a more abstract comment not specifically related to TLoU2. But my general thrust is that ideally, people should be looking to raise the accountability bar when it comes to 'influencing' not find the low water mark and start from there.

2.) There may be issues with the game reviewing industry as a whole but we are unlikely to see any positive change if all we do is blow up the Twitter feeds of people who dared to publicize their positive opinion of a video game.

I mean you're right about personal harassment. But by the same token, it makes sense to me that people are going to use the tools they have to express their frustration at the growing disconnect (which is a multifaceted issue across multiple media types) between critics and actual consumers (no matter how irrelevant critics ultimately are).

[Rendark]

I didnt play tlou but considering Joel apparantly killed scientists who were just trying to end the pandemic with Ellie being the key to that since shes immune, why is he so liked?

Hes basicly an idiot who cant place a higher goal over his own selfish feels. He damned the world in hope to get some poontang 10 years later.

I like him because that's what i would have done in his place.

[Relapses]

I don't know man, I've played some pretty damn good games in my time and never thought about imploring God to bless the developer.

LOL -- while true, I guess I was just thinking about the phrase in a passive complimentary fashion that you might use to describe your favorite restaurant's food.

I know she was saying that there is a confirmation bias which is likely true in part but it still doesn't stand up imo.
First of all, Fallout 76 at launch was not a 5/10 game it was a nonfunctional naked cashgrab fully deserving of a 0, extrapolating from that the idea that merely having a AAA budget imputes some minimum level of quality is just wrong?

I played F76 at launch. It was exceptionally bad for a triple-A release but the fundamentals were there and I think "deserving of a 0" is a bit hyperbolic. But that's just the nature of opinions on the internet. :^)

Secondly; Merely actually possessing a functional level of polish shouldn't automatically translate into a 7. Sports ball 2025 or whatever other made by committee microtransaction infested annual slop EA, ubisoft and Actiblizz shit out that is technically competent but does nothing to improve upon its previous iteration shouldn't just eternally be average because they know the same people will buy it every year no matter what.

These games obviously have an audience and if it's a functional installment in the series then why should the game developers be penalized simply because it's part of a yearly franchise? The amount of work that goes into the game may be just as much as any other triple-A release so it seems a bit overly cynical to add a caveat to these games just because "they sell no matter what." That, to me, seems like a problem with the people buying the games than the developers themselves. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Finally; From a purely functional PoV if they're just going to use 5-10 why not just use 1-5 at that point?

This I can actually get behind. There does need to be a bit more uniformity in game reviewing because the current system naturally skews either overwhelming negative or positive on review aggregate websites. The downside to this would be that people who have a slightly different review scale may be forced to give an arbitrary "rating" to a game despite their review being set up in a way that intentionally dodges this requirement. Regardless, this is a better solution than letting aggregate websites take unscored reviews then arbitrarily providing a numeric score to a game so it fits into their "good, medium, bad" categorizations.

I was responding to comment the AGC guy made (which I was admittedly unclear about), It was a more abstract comment not specifically related to TLoU2. But my general thrust is that ideally, people should be looking to raise the accountability bar when it comes to 'influencing' not find the low water mark and start from there.

I agree -- the issue is that the definition of a "low water mark" is kinda subjective and it's sometimes hard to differentiate between somebody being paid to stream a specific game and somebody who has a earnest interest in it. (Sometimes it's obvious, but others less so. For example, if I'm a streamer who averages ~1k viewers a stream should I only ever stream games that I know the developers will give kickbacks to play or should I just do whatever the fuck I want because I'm getting paid by twitch anyway?)

I mean you're right about personal harassment. But by the same token, it makes sense to me that people are going to use the tools they have to express their frustration at the growing disconnect (which is a multifaceted issue across multiple media types) between critics and actual consumers (no matter how irrelevant critics ultimately are).

Much like with TLJ, I don't think the disconnect is nearly as large as you might think if you're using echo chambers like internet message boards and Youtubers as your barometer. TLoU2 is certainly a bit more controversial than most but as I said in my previous posts, I think it's less to do with the story itself and more to do with the order in which the story is presented. I know the fervent anti-TLoU2 people on this forum will describe this as hand-waving but I really feel like a lot of this does boil down to a fundamental "stop liking things I don't like!" type scenario.

[eschatological]

Secondly; Merely actually possessing a functional level of polish shouldn't automatically translate into a 7. Sports ball 2025 or whatever other made by committee microtransaction infested annual slop EA, ubisoft and Actiblizz shit out that is technically competent but does nothing to improve upon its previous iteration shouldn't just eternally be average because they know the same people will buy it every year no matter what.
Finally; From a purely functional PoV if they're just going to use 5-10 why not just use 1-5 at that point?

Because there are still actually 1-5 games out there. They just never get reviewed because they're shovelware or have small audiences, etc. These outlets, like IGN, routinely compile things like "The worst games of 20XX" where they kind of bundle mini-reviews of all these games all at once.

[Jastall]

I like him because that's what i would have done in his place.

I think that's indeed a lot of Joel's appeal- while objectively his act isn't a very good one, on a basic level it's a lot easier to sympathize with the guy storming the proverbial castle to save his daughter figure than with the group of political activists who want to cut her up to maybe find a cure. And the devs very much underestimated the effect of this, perhaps by being almost too immersed in their own story while most players understandably just go with their initial impressions.

[Big Thanks]

Internet is so pitiful atm...

Stores refuse returns for TLOU2
Director puts himself on the game...oh wait...turns out it was not him...apology video (ROFLMAO)
Pewdiepie live reaction to the game tells us everything we need to know

wait...let me refresh my youtube page for more ideas

The Last of Us Part 2 : A Complete Failure of Storytelling

Paahahaha, im a complete no-lifer in real life...but all this people are worse than me. 1000%

TLDR: If you are not an actual fan of the series...keep your mouth shut Is just a game

[Tech614]

Stores refuse returns for TLOU2

Refusing trade ins and have been for months due to Covid-19 but it has to be because of TLOU2 /s. At least I didn't see anyone dumb enough in this thread to offer that take yet but yea seen it around. Yes, this is the modern internet where no one bothers to fact check their useless drivel.

[Stormdash]

https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articl...ords-uk-charts

Sony's fastest selling game of all time in the UK, ahead of Uncharted 4 and Spider-Man. 76% higher launch then the original. Also the biggest launch of the year topping Animal Crossing.

https://twitter.com/BenjiSales/statu...56197976023040

I’m stunned that a game that used fabricated scenes and model swaps to mislead the audience into thinking that Ellie is on some mission Joel shows up to help her with is selling well. I mean that looks and sounds like an awesome game, like maybe Ellie and Joel are a bit estranged but something happened and he has been keeping an eye out and won’t let her face it alone even if they have stuff to work out? GOTY lock. Especially can’t wait for that heartfelt scene when he surprised her by joining her on the road, nearly cried just at the trailer. Can’t. Wait. Who wouldn’t buy that game?

[Tech614]

I’m stunned that a game that used fabricated scenes and model swaps to mislead the audience into thinking that Ellie is on some mission Joel shows up to help her with is selling well. I mean that looks and sounds like an awesome game, like maybe Ellie and Joel are a bit estranged but something happened and he has been keeping an eye out and won’t let her face it alone even if they have stuff to work out? GOTY lock. Especially can’t wait for that heartfelt scene when he surprised her by joining her on the road, nearly cried just at the trailer. Can’t. Wait. Who wouldn’t buy that game?

Sorry I no longer reply to the person who thinks the man that disarmed a surgeon who was then helpless and proceeded to stab him in the neck is a good guy that didn't deserve his faith.



If they wanted to leave any benefit of the doubt for Joel here he just knocks the guy out, and doesn't murder Marlene afterwards. I'm sorry you're still mad about the reality of Joel's character but it's not going to change anything so please stop quoting me when this is what your entire debate boils down to.