How do you justify Shalandis Isle?

[cparle87]

I haven't played Brood War in... 17 years? So I can't quite recall if it was that bad. I do seem to remember it being quite silly how they all just trusted Kerrigan because of "reasons", but I also seem to remember that the UED plot was pretty okay, with the Admiral committing suicide because he realized that he had been played from the get-go.

Obviously though, Blizzard writing has always been on a very basic, comic book level - which is basically their style, so it's all good. Except when it's not - clearly!

They went with the evil they knew over the evil they didn't whom they knew would enact a brutal, authoritarian regime on the humans, enslave the zerg, and "pacify" the protoss. Kerrigan straight up says it in one of the mission briefings when Duran asks if she thinks they (Raynor/Fenix) suspect anything.

[Ardenaso]

Indeed. BEs going Horde was a decision driven by gameplay and demographics only, lore had absolutely nothing to do with it, because if the elves are spiteful enough to shun the Alliance because of Garithos, they should be spiteful enough to shun the Horde because of Orcs and Trolls. But nope, them Chinese horde players needed a race their girlfriends could play, so instead the proud kingdom of Quel'thalas made itself willing slaves to a bunch of savages in tents led by an absolute dictator who worships the guys who tried to invade their realm barely 20 years ago.

to be fair if they followed the WC3 purist's path, they could've made a Blood Elf Horde narrative more easier with the Night Elves would be Horde in the first place since Vanilla and then they could've made it into Tyrande sending Night Elves to Quel'thalas as goodwill to Kael'thas, then the ones sabotaging would be the High Elf exiles instead

[masterjc]

we have lots of similar situations. btw in each case, Allaince players have absolutely no idea who these guys are, why they are there etc

same goes for Lost Isles and SI7 trying capture Thrall, who isnot representative of the Horde at the moment and it makes absolutely no sense for Alliance to capture/kill him or even attack neutral Goblins


in case of Blood elves in Azuremyst isles, they are representatives of Kael's forces, not quel'thalas

[Jastall]

to be fair if they followed the WC3 purist's path, they could've made a Blood Elf Horde narrative more easier with the Night Elves would be Horde in the first place since Vanilla and then they could've made it into Tyrande sending Night Elves to Quel'thalas as goodwill to Kael'thas, then the ones sabotaging would be the High Elf exiles instead

Or they could have made more than two factions, or neutral races/races that explicitly only have some of their members join the faction rather than have all of Quel'thalas rush to bend the knee to a Warchief half a world away because one dwarf and a bunch of Sentinels were dicks for completely inexplicable reasons.

There's no defending this move lorewise, and Blizzard barely tries. BEs are in the Horde because of in-game demographics, and because they will always prioritize gameplay over lore. On that front it's been an uncontested success, given that there's more female BEs in the playerbase than there are Orcs period, but still.

[Saltysquidoon]

Or they could have made more than two factions, or neutral races/races that explicitly only have some of their members join the faction rather than have all of Quel'thalas rush to bend the knee to a Warchief half a world away because one dwarf and a bunch of Sentinels were dicks for completely inexplicable reasons.

I find it hilarious the Pandaren being neutral is apparently considered some massive failed experiment and never to be repeated. Then instead they made a bunch of OC doughnut steel palette swap elves and flipped the factions like that's better at all.

[Jastall]

I find it hilarious the Pandaren being neutral is apparently considered some massive failed experiment and never to be repeated. Then instead they made a bunch of OC doughnut steel palette swap elves and flipped the factions like that's better at all.

Indeed, visually there's basically no difference between BEs and VEs now unless one intentionally makes it so. But like with BEs in the first place, money talks, and people like their elves far more than they like their pandas.

[Unholyground]

I like many others are going to pretend that the entirety of BfA was a vision of N'Zoth. It really is the only way to swallow the pill. This is also the only time Blizzard can use that as a scapegoat so hopefully they do lol.

[Varodoc]

I like many others are going to pretend that the entirety of BfA was a vision of N'Zoth. It really is the only way to swallow the pill. This is also the only time Blizzard can use that as a scapegoat so hopefully they do lol.

I'm pretty sure they already said at Blizzcon that N'Zoth and the other Old Gods are dead, meaning that we killed the actual N'Zoth and not a vision. However they hinted at the possibility that they might return in the future.

[Tharivor]

Or they could have made more than two factions, or neutral races/races that explicitly only have some of their members join the faction rather than have all of Quel'thalas rush to bend the knee to a Warchief half a world away because one dwarf and a bunch of Sentinels were dicks for completely inexplicable reasons.

There's no defending this move lorewise, and Blizzard barely tries. BEs are in the Horde because of in-game demographics, and because they will always prioritize gameplay over lore. On that front it's been an uncontested success, given that there's more female BEs in the playerbase than there are Orcs period, but still.

Lorewise it makes perfect sense and always has. The Blood Elves needed help to rebuild Silvermoon, fight the Scourge, and get to Outland. The Forsaken were on their doorstep and in a position to help while the Alliance was half a continent away. They no longer had any sentimental attachment to the Alliance after Garithos and so no reason to refuse Horde aid and remain stuck behind their walls thousands of miles away from the Dark Portal.

I agree it would have made more sense for them to remain unplayable and neutral, but the reasons given in BC for their entry into the Horde make sense as well. Sentinels and Dwarves have nothing to do with it and all take place after their entry into the Horde is a pretty done deal.

[Aresk]

in case of Blood elves in Azuremyst isles, they are representatives of Kael's forces, not quel'thalas

Kael is also the leader of Silvermoon, with the residents of Silvermoon actively attempting to get to Outland to help him out. It isn't until later in the expansion that the blood elves realize they've been duped and part ways from him.

And then we go from Raynor promising to kill Kerrigan given the chance to him being still in love for her and saving her. Just for her to become Zerg again, but this time shes sparing civilians... most of the time. I really like the gameplay side of the SC2 campaign but the story was so infuriating. And of course Blizz hat to bring back basically everyone from SC1/BW. Because - just like in WoW - Blizz nowadays is basically unable to write new characters in other roles than being short term raidbosses.

Maybe that Raynor part is actually explained in one of the many books, but a story contained to a game should make sense within that game. Or as others said it "The Books don't matter".

I personally feel it was consistent in WoL, with Raynor's alcoholism a very visual sign of his internal struggle between his desire to kill Kerrigan and the information that if he does, everyone will die. Then he finally gets word that he might get "his" Sarah back from the abomination she is now, I can see how he'd have hope again. The more significant issue was the way WoL storylines had Raynor on an emotional roller coaster that makes him look manic depressive. If you can segregate his reactions to the specific storylines, it makes sense, but looked at as a whole, it can be really dramatic shifts from one mission to the other.

I have no issue with it in context. It worked fine in WC3 - if you didn't read the manual you wouldn't even know they'd have anything to be upset about, I'm saying that it was weak in the long term and is one of the things that WoW did right to ditch. Ditto how the Alliance being basically nonexistent in WC3 is fine for the story it sought to tell, or how the orcs having all their plot threads wrapped up at the end of it both work in the RTS, but are untenable in a long-form MMO.

Given that the NEs forgave the Horde after they butchered several of their people and killed Cenarius, it makes sense that the reconciliation with the high elves amongst Jaina's group may have caused them to view the blood elves more positively. I don't really have anything for Kael's cooperation, though, other than maybe he was desperate enough at the time given his people's plight.

[Jastall]

Lorewise it makes perfect sense and always has. The Blood Elves needed help to rebuild Silvermoon, fight the Scourge, and get to Outland. The Forsaken were on their doorstep and in a position to help while the Alliance was half a continent away. They no longer had any sentimental attachment to the Alliance after Garithos and so no reason to refuse Horde aid and remain stuck behind their walls thousands of miles away from the Dark Portal.

I agree it would have made more sense for them to remain unplayable and neutral, but the reasons given in BC for their entry into the Horde make sense as well. Sentinels and Dwarves have nothing to do with it and all take place after their entry into the Horde is a pretty done deal.

They can be allies to the Horde without joining it, much like the Zandalari ended up being, it makes far more sense due to their isolationist nature and doesn't put them in thrall to an organization that was an enemy not too long ago and doesn't share their values or interests. Gamewise make them able to join the Horde as free-willed adventurers that don't have scoliosis, that's what 99% of people playing BEs care about anyway.

[Tharivor]

They can be allies to the Horde without joining it, much like the Zandalari ended up being, it makes far more sense due to their isolationist nature and doesn't put them in thrall to an organization that was an enemy not too long ago and doesn't share their values or interests. Gamewise make them able to join the Horde as free-willed adventurers that don't have scoliosis, that's what 99% of people playing BEs care about anyway.

I definitely agree that had Allied Races been a thing back in BC the Zandalari model would have fitted the Blood Elves to a much better degree. However it should be remembered that the Horde in BC was a lot more decentralised than it became under Garrosh- Thrall basically let the different parts of the Horde do their own thing and Blood Elf and Forsaken characters even started neutral with the Kalimdor Horde to demonstrate this divide. By MoP it was clear that joining the Horde had been a bad move in hindsight, but at the time it didn't seem to have many disadvantages.

[Jastall]

I definitely agree that had Allied Races been a thing back in BC the Zandalari model would have fitted the Blood Elves to a much better degree. However it should be remembered that the Horde in BC was a lot more decentralised than it became under Garrosh- Thrall basically let the different parts of the Horde do their own thing and Blood Elf and Forsaken characters even started neutral with the Kalimdor Horde to demonstrate this divide. By MoP it was clear that joining the Horde had been a bad move in hindsight, but at the time it didn't seem to have many disadvantages.

Yeah, probably because Blizzard decided to add the mandatory Blood Oath and other shit like that to centralize the post-WCII Horde's command and political structure at the same time as they gave the Alliance a blue Warchief, in order to make both factions more of a blob that they could pit to war against one another for muh faction pride.

And the issue is that it kept happening. The Nightborne's leader stated that she wanted her people to be known as defenders of the planet, not conquerors, but because Tyrande was snappy with her at one time she almost immediately throws 10 000 years of independence to the bin and swears fealty to fucking Sylvanas who declares a world war within a few months. The Vulepra just saw the Horde go through a grave internal crisis and effectively lose a war but they still want in because... er... they wanna help or some shit. It makes no sense at all that these groups are so willing to throw their political independence at the feet of the nearest red or blue recruitment station. But players like more races, and by jove they'll get more friggin races because it's not like lore has ever stopped Blizzard anyway, even back in vanilla where the Night Elves shacked up with humans and dwarves literally on the other side of the planet that have nothing in common with them whatsoever.

[cparle87]

Indeed. BEs going Horde was a decision driven by gameplay and demographics only, lore had absolutely nothing to do with it, because if the elves are spiteful enough to shun the Alliance because of Garithos, they should be spiteful enough to shun the Horde because of Orcs and Trolls. But nope, them Chinese horde players needed a race their girlfriends could play, so instead the proud kingdom of Quel'thalas made itself willing slaves to a bunch of savages in tents led by an absolute dictator who worships the guys who tried to invade their realm barely 20 years ago.

And Kael'thas decided to join forces with the guy who masterminded his own people's genocide in the first place as only the first step of a plan to burn the entire world. Your point?

[Maljinwo]

I always saw it as Fandral's orders. He was still a leader of the Alliance at that point

[Kallisto]

Ah, the good ol' times when Alliance doing shady !@#$ had actual consequences... Still, more info about the whole issue would have been most appreciated.

If only they continued with that and have the war about Gen's attack in BFA (and that yes the alliance WAS using the meeting at Stromgarde to attempt a coup or Gen was without Anduin knowing for politics reasons.) or SI7 was attacking Goblin miners without provocation because you don't let the opposing alliance get a potential weapon before you.

The too pure alliance is imo the biggest issue in wow lore.

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I always saw it as Fandral's orders. He was still a leader of the Alliance at that point

No he wasn't. Tyrande was the night elf leader and the only one who had command over the sentinels. The whole "Fandral ordered it." is head canon that has nothing to back it up.

[tristannarutofan]

This is why i never trust any criticism from fans. Yall have no logic and sense.

Its logical that the night elves would keep an eue on their kin and probably did this whole time.
Its logical consider the fact the divide is due to past high elves consorting with demons that one would question them doing so again.
Its logical that the night elf commander, considering past hostilities like when..anasterian? Stole from the well of eternity, considering past prejudices might have given her spies leave to engage any blood elf patrols.
Its logical that a commander who could not communicate with their own superior easily (it would take weeks or months to ask for advice from teldrassil) might respond to hostilities between her spies and blood elf patrols, to greenlight a more aggressive response.

Further the actions are NOT justified or deemed acceptable. Nothing in the narrative suggest the night elves WERENT the bad guys

The night elves increased hostility by being sanctimonious xenophobes who saw their cousins as demons suckers, and were not only in the wrong but made things worse. Because the alliance is not infallible and the writers never pretended like they were.

There is nothing confusing or co trary here. The night elves fucked up, same as the commanders in silithis giving mercenaries (us) leave to use fatal force to get the samples from the goblins,

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If only they continued with that and have the war about Gen's attack in BFA (and that yes the alliance WAS using the meeting at Stromgarde to attempt a coup or Gen was without Anduin knowing for politics reasons.) or SI7 was attacking Goblin miners without provocation because you don't let the opposing alliance get a potential weapon before you.

The too pure alliance is imo the biggest issue in wow lore.

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No he wasn't. Tyrande was the night elf leader and the only one who had command over the sentinels. The whole "Fandral ordered it." is head canon that has nothing to back it up.

Dont think anyone on the dev team has ever suggested through direct talk or story that the alliance were pure, exept maybe some hyperbole.

Morality only comes up when ppl bring up horde attrocities. And the issue is "sure the horde purposefully murdered thousands for the sake of wiping out an entire race, but this one military commander who had no oversight attacked a non military target"

The writers have never acted like the alliance was pure. Just shitty commanders doing horrible stuff of their own accord is not on the same as warchiefs purposefully murdering thousands for being the wrong species

[Soon-TM]

back in vanilla where the Night Elves shacked up with humans and dwarves literally on the other side of the planet that have nothing in common with them whatsoever.

This part is especially head-scratching. I'm currently playing a nelf in Classic, to have a detailed look at the Alliance side of the story (I've always mained Horde in retail), and lo and behold - there isn't even a single quest or NPC that tells you WTF are exactly nelfs doing in the Alliance in the first place. You have even those books scattered around the world, but I can't recall anything about how NEs were admitted in the Alliance.

Btw, the Forsaken joining the Horde was almost as bad.

[Maljinwo]

No he wasn't. Tyrande was the night elf leader and the only one who had command over the sentinels. The whole "Fandral ordered it." is head canon that has nothing to back it up.

If i'm not mistaken, Fandral was the Archdruid of the Night Elves until Malfurion returned, which gave him plenty political sway.
He even sent Alliance forces to kill trolls as he got all pissed off because trolls correctly claimed elves were their descendants

[Ardenaso]

No he wasn't. Tyrande was the night elf leader and the only one who had command over the sentinels. The whole "Fandral ordered it." is head canon that has nothing to back it up.

that's the point; Tyrande sending her Sentinels to sabotage Quel'thalas made no sense

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-snip-

no one's saying the Alliance is pure and goodest boys; try again