Could it be time for Universal Basic Income discussion?

[Logwyn]

With the COVID crisis and then AI and robots, fast approaching might be time to look into how to deal with all of this. What do you all think?

[Yadryonych]

how to deal with all of this?

Govermnent invesing money into industries to create more jobs and provide people with fishing rod, not with fish, maybe?

[PACOX]

It most certainly is time...but who believe COVID19 will go away if you simply stop testing for it. Coming to the table with reality will get you nowhere.

[kamuimac]

With the COVID crisis and then AI and robots, fast approaching might be time to look into how to deal with all of this. What do you all think?

you dont. few countries did limited population test runs and imidiately gave up the idea.

why ? because people always chose the option to just not work .

and with nobody working there would be no taxes to support this idiotic idea.

look at covid - half of people rejoiced and treated those first few weeks like extra paid vacation - because thats exackly what it has been in most of European countries . while US had protests on street due to lack of social support programs.

[PC2]

With the COVID crisis and then AI and robots, fast approaching might be time to look into how to deal with all of this. What do you all think?

For the US at $1k per month it would cost ~$4 trillion annually. Democrats would not have much interest in a program that costs that much. Probably not until the size of the economy doubles a couple times.

AI can't take our jobs because people are constantly innovating and creating new jobs. Only a far far future AGI will have the ability to take that job from us.

[Twdft]

gave up the idea.

why ? because people always chose the option to just not work .

For UBI to work we have to change working conditions too.

Most jobs today don't pay much, working conditions are shit, people are working their ass off 50 hours per week and still can't afford a good vacation or a new car or whatever. Of course they say they'd rather stay home.

Treat people better and they want to work.

[Very Tired]

It doesn't really matter how much you discuss it because the republicans aren't in favor of it in anyway. Wait until self driving trucks replace that huge industry and maybe they'll finally support it while pretending they were open to the idea all along.

[Healing Rain]

If it came with the repeal of all current welfare programs, maybe.

[Masark]

people are constantly innovating and creating new jobs.

Jobs that largely don't actually do anything useful or are actively harmful to society.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullshit_Jobs

[the game]

It is fine to believe in fairy tales when you are a teenager. However I don't think you are.

Your AI and robots argument is invalid. "Robots takin r jewbs!!!" has been an issue since computers were invented many years ago and industries started to automate. They have been "fast approaching" for at least half a century. Now instead of 1000 people working at a plant it takes only 20 to do same job. Farmers now have machinery that can take care of massive fields without extra people. What happened to people who used to work in those industries? They moved on to different jobs. New types of jobs have been created.

UBI is a pipe dream propped by people who just don't want to work. Lazy useless people or talentless useless people who can't do anything. They need excuse not to work, but still receive money for doing nothing.

Also they want capitalism to fund their socialism.

[PC2]

Jobs that largely don't actually do anything useful or are actively harmful to society.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullshit_Jobs

Automate everything! ASAP

We want every person to be using their creativity to make new ideas, new stuff, new theories, new art, new technology, etc.

[Egomaniac]

Also they want capitalism to fund their socialism.

As opposed to the usual method of using socialism to fund capitalism.

[PC2]

Your AI and robots argument is invalid. "Robots takin r jewbs!!!" has been an issue since computers were invented many years ago and industries started to automate. They have been "fast approaching" for at least half a century. Now instead of 1000 people working at a plant it takes only 20 to do same job. Farmers now have machinery that can take care of massive fields without extra people. What happened to people who used to work in those industries? They moved on to different jobs. New types of jobs have been created.

Exactly, the whole "human work will be obsolete soon" couldn't be farther from reality.

[Gaidax]

And who is going to pay for all that?

I pay enough taxes as it is. In-between income tax, healthcare tax, pension fund, car taxes/tolls, VAT on top of all that later on - 50% of what I earn evaporates right there. You can go your socialist dream crap all you like, but I am not interested paying additional dime from my hard-earned paycheck.

With this coronavirus we ended up doing pretty much what amounts to said universal basic income for all those million+ people on unpaid leave and the result is +10% debt-to-GDP in a matter of 3 months and guess who's going to cover this shit? Me. Finance already starts mentally preparing everyone for extra taxes. It's not sustainable.

[kamuimac]

For UBI to work we have to change working conditions too.

Most jobs today don't pay much, working conditions are shit, people are working their ass off 50 hours per week and still can't afford a good vacation or a new car or whatever. Of course they say they'd rather stay home.

Treat people better and they want to work.

but they are treated ok . you are saying like they are treated in work as slaves .

the reason they are no paid much is because their work is not work much . unless you are willign to pay much more for the end product those people will never earn more.

goverment is usually quite slow - but they will ventually in few years catch up with taxation on AI / automatization - the only ones who will make big $ are companies who do it already now - its called by technical/economical term "premium for innovation" in business - once everybody will catch up in 15-20 years robots work will be heavil taxed and it wont be that optimal to use them when alternative would be cheaper worker from third world country on work visa.

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Exactly, the whole "human work will be obsolete soon" couldn't be farther from reality.

its also science fiction in most branches of "detailed" production .

ill give you one of examples from fashion industry - shoes. every big company dreams atm about automatization of their production - but reality is unless you are world scale brand like adidas/nike who makes milions of model X or Y its just not worth it due to how detaild in 3D that work process has to be. even simplest actions like putting in glue betwen upper and sole whle using paint-brush and glue has to be done by machine programmed in detailed 3D enviroment - and such machine is a cost atm equal to 10+ years wages of person in that position - and thats excluding repair service,spare parts and costs of separate programming of machine for each separate design because - so you have to hire it specialist who specialises in machine programming - whos monthly wage is equalt to like 6 months of wage of person who just stands there with paint-brush with glue - and such person can be literaly anyone with 2 hands and functioning brain.

more detailed works there ? lol god luck with that unless you are global brand able to invest bilions into single factory

do you know why i know it ? because i already spend hundreds of hours researching that topic and being in contact with people who sell such indutry-robots in EU. if you seen catalogue prices of simplest machines like that and cost of their programming you would understand why its just a fantasy for like 95% of companies.

will someday / oneday in future it be possible ? maybe but it wont be in next 50 years on 99,9%.

[Cæli]

I would love it for sure, money taken right from the pocket of the others, so that I can play mmos all days without caring about working
who wouldn't want that?

[Draco-Onis]

It is fine to believe in fairy tales when you are a teenager. However I don't think you are.

Your AI and robots argument is invalid. "Robots takin r jewbs!!!" has been an issue since computers were invented many years ago and industries started to automate. They have been "fast approaching" for at least half a century. Now instead of 1000 people working at a plant it takes only 20 to do same job. Farmers now have machinery that can take care of massive fields without extra people. What happened to people who used to work in those industries? They moved on to different jobs. New types of jobs have been created.

Well it's rather ironic that you talk about fairy tales when you are ignoring reality, technology is the reason the coal industry is decimated and Trump got elected. There's no 1 to 1 correlation between the jobs technology creates and old jobs because the US doesn't have things like work training programs and free colleges. Those new jobs require far more education and training that those people do not have so they fall off the labor force, that goes for lot of sectors not just coal and mining.

I do think we need build a stronger social safety net in the US in the form of job training programs, free colleges etc. The people who lose their jobs don't know any better and think scary immigrants are taking their jobs not market forces and the fact that mines no longer need as many people due to technology.

UBI is a pipe dream propped by people who just don't want to work. Lazy useless people or talentless useless people who can't do anything. They need excuse not to work, but still receive money for doing nothing.

While I don't agree with UBI this is simply false because it is debatable, UBI already exist we call it welfare and we have it for the rich too it's called tax loopholes and constant tax cuts. I always laugh at the useless talentless people line because no one said that when we gave the rich a 2 trillion dollar check for shits and giggles.

[kamuimac]

Well it's rather ironic that you talk about fairy tales when you are ignoring reality, technology is the reason the coal industry is decimated and Trump got elected. There's no 1 to 1 correlation between the jobs technology creates and old jobs because the US doesn't have things like work training programs and free colleges. Those new jobs require far more education and training that those people do not have so they fall off the labor force, that goes for lot of sectors not just coal and mining.

I do think we need build a stronger social safety net in the US in the form of job training programs, free colleges etc. The people who lose their jobs don't know any better and think scary immigrants are taking their jobs not market forces and the fact that mines no longer need as many people due to technology.



While I don't agree with UBI this is simply false because it is debatable, UBI already exist we call it welfare and we have it for the rich too it's called tax loopholes and constant tax cuts. I always laugh at the useless talentless people line because no one said that when we gave the rich a 2 trillion dollar check for shits and giggles.

the problem is that for most of people it simply wouldnt work .

you would have to build from ground whole adoults educational support systems to re-educate them in fields like maths/physics before they even will be able to enter such colleges - and for most of people high-school level of math is already too much

do you know why work in IT , biotechnology , engeenering is so well paid and those people are so sought after ? because majority of human population dont have it in them to be able to learn that stuf due to limits of their inteligence (here i said it you can hate me for being honest ) and even a bit smarter then general population people have their limits too .

its simply impossible to achieve.

thats why for goverments of future the biggest problems to overcome will be finding them something to do . and some may even decide to put artifical blockades on technology implementation to protect their jobs - because there will be nothing to give them to do and they cant get money for free just because they breath .

imo the obvious choice that most of goverments will make in next 5-10 years will be limiting work day to 6 hours (30 hours a week) . yes people will overall earn "less" but they will still live on semi/decent level. and in next 20-30 years that work time will be most likely limited to 4 hours a day (20 hours a week) . and people will be encourage to use that additional free time for developement of their own "Services " for others.

and in before people call me crazy - 40 years ago in eastern EU it was normal to work 6 days a week (48 hours ) instead like nowadays 5 . same was with educational system - kids were going to school 6 days a week .

[Saltysquidoon]

"DW guys we'll just make new jobs" is literally code for "I don't understand neo-liberal economic policy".

Tell me something when a manufacturing industry dies because it was outsourced china and/or India what happens to the 56 year old factory workers? Do they go to uni and become accountants or do they go and work at another factory OH SHII-.
No, of course, they don't, the government is expected to pick up the slack until they die off. Which has the cool effect of increasing government spending ( and thus tax on the individual), lowering corporate spending and lowering corporate tax burden (super funny how that works).

Also, have you noticed that even though cheap manufacturing labour is almost universally outsourced to india/china that those countries still have destitute agrarian peasants? How does that work? It's almost like population growth has basically outstripped the economic growth since the dawn of time (which is why unemployment has always existed). Essentially without the green revolution, we all would have starved to death in the 50s.

That's without even getting into how the bullshit jobs essentially just further dilute the meagre wealth generated by lower-skill jobs, because these positions are almost always in the lower rungs of an organisation (again weird coincidence how that works).

But hey the gubmit already gets too much of my tax already so it's probably better to just let profligate mega corperations destroy our governments, economy and planet for the exclusive benefit of their stakeholders (which for some reason stopped being their employees, weird how those things keep happening). Wouldn't want to be called a pinko.

and people will be encourage to use that additional free time for developement of their own "Services " for others.

The fact some people can barely survive working full time now and already have to work a 'side gig' to actually generate wealth is a pretty damning indictment on the state of wealth distribution.

[xenogear3]

Although I believe in UBI, it is a zero sum game.
It is not just rich people see the loss.
The people who are currently on welfare will get less.

Lots of people would stop working.
The true GDP is less.
It will take awhile to recover.