Reconciling The Horde

[Skytotem]

yes sure, these thing are fundamental part of their characterization. so?

Well that's just not sustainable anymore man

Most of the horde is fed up with them and thinks it's stupid we let em stick around at all when they backstab us and render land uninhabitable

If Blizz can't manage yall being a gaggle of evil cackling zombies in a way that *doesn't* make the rest of the horde look stupid we're just gonna keep getting the same stupid plot cycle

Or blizz will have yall go calia, which is just as bad

- - - Updated - - -

What I saw, was that a LOT of the Horde players who wanted to side with Sylvanas was out of spite from having to turn on yet another warchief.

This.

Horde players don't want civil war again (never wanted it in the first place really, it was dumb of them to make Garrosh an evil authoritarian instead of having him mature)

They need to give the horde actual ingame reasons to want to fight the alliance, AND not have that fight feel like we're kicking puppies

[sillag]

Imagine unironically thinking people are RL actual fascists because they play on a different team than you in an entirely fictional fantasy video game.

this is just you being intellectually dishonest. i dont think horde fans are fascist because they are horde fans, i think they are fascist because they are actual fascists, and the horde has been written to attract those people to the faction. this is undeniably true btw, and a lot of horde writing in bfa was sourced from literal actual things that the nazis did irl.

obviously not all players are neo-nazis but most (particularly belf players) are, and the rest are too defensive of their make believe video game faction to ever admit it.

Infracted.

[Ielenia]

Who?

Baine never followed a single order from the Alliance, only his own moral compass.

Saurfang could be said to have followed an instruction from Anduin, but he's dead now.

Pretty sure people think that because Baine is not about "war and conquest!!!!" because his moral compass happens to align with the Alliance's goals of peace, that somehow means he's an "Alliance puppet/bootlicker/doormat/whatever".

[Skytotem]

Pretty sure people think that because Baine is not about "war and conquest!!!!" because his moral compass happens to align with the Alliance's goals of peace, that somehow means he's an "Alliance puppet/bootlicker/doormat/whatever".

It's more the absence of him doing anything positive for the Horde that doesn't ALSO help the alliance or isn't paired up with him being Anti-War.


Let's look at Baine's character history.

-WC3, was kidnapped by centaur as a kid, nothing big.

-Vanilla, Questgiver, pretty respectable in that he's peaceful but sends you to put the hurt on dwarves and such that WILL NOT LEARN THEIR LESSON

-Nothing in TBC, or Wotlk

-Early Cata, he becomes leader in a book, but his rise to prominence is tied in with a lot of unpleasant events for the Horde. Garrosh killing Cairne, Magatha genociding a tribe (and a lot of the tauren's other best and brightest) and seizing power, the horde being pretty much useless and him having to go to Jaina for help.

-Mid Cata, His short story, this is where things really turn south. Baine is more concerned about peace with the quillboar than with the fact that his own people are being murdered by them, and the quillboar are depicted as not CARING about peace. The whole 'drowning them with the water you're giving them' bit feels like clunky writing, and we see in the tauren start zone it DIDN'T WORK and more tauren got killed. This makes Baine look ineffective.

Late Cata toMoP, Baine says Taurajo was an 'acceptable target' which is a really bad angle as the tauren representative, he's not supposed to be objective about this, this is something that should have him ANGRY But he comes across as placid. Especially if he can muster up the energy to be mad at Garrosh... yet all he does is banish tauren that fought the Alliance. Baine is spineless despite his moral opposition to Garrosh and helps lay siege to Theramoore, again he whines about Garrosh but DOES very little. After Theramoore Baine doesn't do much beyond back up Vol'jin. He and Vol'jin fail to even take Orgrimmar's gates, this makes the Horde look weak again.

-WoD, Nothing.

-Legion, Nothing beyond saying Hi to Mayla at the end of their questchains.

-BFA opening, Baine does... NOTHING about Teldrassil. Ineffectual. Then in Lordaeron Baine blames Sylvanas for leaving Saurfang to die, but that doesn't make sense because Saurfang chose to stay behind in his near suicidal 'honor' focus. Baine says nothing about Sylvanas raising tauren dead in the battle.

-BFA middle, Baine helps the Zandalari but it's all deskwork and sending us out into the world, nothing proactive. He suggests opening diplomatic talks after Dazar'alor which comes across in context as sounding like he's suggesting surrender, which, again, even if it's 'sensible' or not what he meant exactly, makes him LOOK incredibly bad. Baine helps Jaina's brother and is the only one to call out Sylv on literally betrayed the one line Forsaken aren't supposed to cross with Free Will, this is -so close- to being a good thing, but he gets horde soldiers killed in the process and by now he's skewed so heavily to seeming like he cares more about the Alliance and moral posturing rather than actually helping his PEOPLE or things that MATTER (Teldrassil with thousands of nelfs vs. Jaina's brother...) that he's hard to take seriously as a character.

-BFA endgame, Lor'themar says Baine is everything that's good about the Horde and it feels like parody. Blizz has to know Baine isn't popular with the playerbase, and cutting through our own forces to rescue him feels like salt in the wound.



I'm sure I missed some stuff with the Divine bell and MoP but I'm sure yall get my point.


Baine's problem isn't that he's PEACEFUL, it's that he's ONLY peaceful when it helps humans and he's painfully ineffective at doing more than talk.

[Raisei]

What I saw, was that a LOT of the Horde players who wanted to side with Sylvanas was out of spite from having to turn on yet another warchief.

While I understand the sentiment, spite is an incredibly bad reason to select or elect a leader. It closes your eyes to all the red flags. We have that a lot among our Horde playerbase here when we see that some of them prefer to be stuck with a psychopathic Banshee that tried to kill them all over having to take orders from Baine becaue "he's a traitor/coward/Anduin's puppet".
It leads to unbelievable mental gymnastics where nothing Sylvanas could do or has done is as HORRIBLE as Baine trying to make peace.

There is also several real life examples, some about 80 years in the past, others just a few.

[Super Dickmann]

While I understand the sentiment, spite is an incredibly bad reason to select or elect a leader. It closes your eyes to all the red flags. We have that a lot among our Horde playerbase here when we see that some of them prefer to be stuck with a psychopathic Banshee that tried to kill them all over having to take orders from Baine becaue "he's a traitor/coward/Anduin's puppet".
It leads to unbelievable mental gymnastics where nothing Sylvanas could do or has done is as HORRIBLE as Baine trying to make peace.

Baine is both closer to somene you might actually see as a leader, and for his relative humanity much worse than a caricature zombie wanting to spice up an astral kill counter. He is hated because a leader's job is to benefit the constituency he represents, whereas Baine continually advances the interests of those against them over their own. Giving water to quillboar who kill his people. Exiling the tauren who resisted after an attack on a position of theirs that ended up with civilians killed while actively helping the one who did it, despite said tauren and the orcish allies he constantly whines about being the only reason the Great Gate wasn't destroyed. He considers the lives of those of his own group of lesser value than those of the enemy in killing a bunch of soldiers to free Derek. In going for the abstract greater good, as defined solely by him, he has continually dicked over the group he's a part of and is there to represent. He takes great moral umbrage when others are hurt, but is totally apathetic when his own are hurt.

He also lusts after and illicitly sends pieces of his body to a teenager and that's no good.

[Raisei]

Baine is both closer to somene you might actually see as a leader, and for his relative humanity much worse than a caricature zombie wanting to spice up an astral kill counter. He is hated because a leader's job is to benefit the constituency he represents, whereas Baine continually advances the interests of those against them over their own. Giving water to quillboar who kill his people. Exiling the tauren who resisted after an attack on a position of theirs that ended up with civilians killed while actively helping the one who did it, despite said tauren and the orcish allies he constantly whines about being the only reason the Great Gate wasn't destroyed. He considers the lives of those of his own group of lesser value than those of the enemy in killing a bunch of soldiers to free Derek. In going for the abstract greater good, as defined solely by him, he has continually dicked over the group he's a part of and is there to represent. He takes great moral umbrage when others are hurt, but is totally apathetic when his own are hurt.

He also lusts after and illicitly sends pieces of his body to a teenager and that's no good.

Okay the last line made me chuckle.

I understand all this, even if I still disagree on the reason why Baine did what he did, but how, how does the Horde benefit from being murdered and send to super hell? How is Sylvanas acting in the interest of her constituency? Her only goal (for now) is death and she clearly stated that she does not care if it is Horde or Alliance that gets fed to the Maw. She even demanded that Azshara kill the Horde players and NPCs in Nazjatar.

You might not like Baine, hate him even, he is quite insistent on keeping the Horde honorable and will do what it takes for that, but for Old God's sake, he IS the smaller evil.
Basically it comes down to Horde players commiting suicide (+ eternal torment) because of spite for Baine. I just can't seem to follow those mental gymnastics to arrive in a world where that makes sense.

[matrix123mko]

Throwing these Alliance loving pseudo leaders who rather kill and betray their own people constantly every time when push comes to shove off the cliffs of Thunder Bluff and put some decent characters in their place who have good, proper goals for their own race and are not Anduin boot lickers would be a good start to bring the members of the Horde somewhat more together.

That could be a good first step. Second step is to not make decent characters into raid bosses.

- - - Updated - - -

Okay the last line made me chuckle.

I understand all this, even if I still disagree on the reason why Baine did what he did, but how, how does the Horde benefit from being murdered and send to super hell? How is Sylvanas acting in the interest of her constituency? Her only goal (for now) is death and she clearly stated that she does not care if it is Horde or Alliance that gets fed to the Maw. She even demanded that Azshara kill the Horde players and NPCs in Nazjatar.

You might not like Baine, hate him even, he is quite insistent on keeping the Horde honorable and will do what it takes for that, but for Old God's sake, he IS the smaller evil.
Basically it comes down to Horde players commiting suicide (+ eternal torment) because of spite for Baine. I just can't seem to follow those mental gymnastics to arrive in a world where that makes sense.

So Sylvanas is aware of Maw and wants everyone to enter it while Baine only wants Horde to die, although he has no knowledge of Shadowlands. This means that Baine is irresponsible and unfair towards his subjects, while Sylvanas is just, as she gives equal treatment to all existence.

Moreover, Maw is not worse than Bastion or Ardenweald. Apparently, Azshara's curse on Azsuna was the best possible afterlife.

[Super Dickmann]

understand all this, even if I still disagree on the reason why Baine did what he did, but how, how does the Horde benefit from being murdered and send to super hell? How is Sylvanas acting in the interest of her constituency? Her only goal (for now) is death and she clearly stated that she does not care if it is Horde or Alliance that gets fed to the Maw. She even demanded that Azshara kill the Horde players and NPCs in Nazjatar.

You might not like Baine, hate him even, he is quite insistent on keeping the Horde honorable and will do what it takes for that, but for Old God's sake, he IS the smaller evil.
Basically it comes down to Horde players commiting suicide (+ eternal torment) because of spite for Baine. I just can't seem to follow those mental gymnastics to arrive in a world where that makes sense.

As said, there's no argument to be made in regards to Sylvanas once her motive is known for the in-story Horde. This is an argument you could still make, and fairly easily, up to the point where it was confirmed that BTS was getting retconned rather than just working off the (correct) assumption that it would be. After that point though, even entering into a lesser of two evil situations shows the degree to which this character has failed in implementation - Baine isn't meant to be the lesser of two evils, or even a flawed character in the sense he's discussed, he's meant to be all good. Additionally, Baine is no more aware of what Sylvanas intends than anyone else - his actions can only be defended on a post-hoc basis, knowing what we now do about Sylvanas's objective.

The framing of the story still leaves Sylvanas capable to be enjoyed as an antagonist. Thereotically I assume, she isn't now, but making her into a servicable villain isn't that hard if they pull some more retcons and give her some actual focus as a character instead of as a story tool. Baine however has to be a hero - so we need to identify him and see his actions as admirable. But we don't - Skytotem for example is no fan of Sylvanas or Garrosh, neither are most Horde posters who have radically different views of the Horde from me. However he still dislikes Baine. The only ones who do consistently defend Baine are Alliance posters who do so out of contrarianism. And even then it's the more moderate ones. Someone like sillag hates him for being ineffectual.

[Raisei]

So Sylvanas is aware of Maw and wants everyone to enter it while Baine only wants Horde to die, although he has no knowledge of Shadowlands. This means that Baine is irresponsible and unfair towards his subjects, while Sylvanas is just, as she gives equal treatment to all existence.

Moreover, Maw is not worse than Bastion or Ardenweald. Apparently, Azshara's curse on Azsuna was the best possible afterlife.

Astonishing. What do I need to smoke to come up with such a completely twisted reality? Bwonsamdi's Tears mixed with Banshee toenails?

@Super Dickmann: You see why I have trouble taking Baine critiques seriously... ?

[Super Dickmann]

You see why I have trouble taking Baine critiques seriously... ?

Hey, shoot the messenger, not the message. He is right regarding Baine being ignorant of the whole Shadowlands malarky. The Sylvanas stuff is

[Faerillis]

for a lot of horde players they do, and it's really undeniable - you don't have to look far to see many wow fans who identify strongly enough with the horde to brand themselves with tattoos, etc.

but the horde doesn't really stand for anything other than fascism and genocide. most of the horde races have strong alt-right themes of genocide, racial purity, racial supremacy, manifest destiny, military dictatorship, and everything that makes incels cum in their pants in delight. you'd only be fooling yourself if you pretended this aspect that permeates almost the entire faction's lore wasn't a factor for a large number of horde players. bfa brought it to the forefront by making it the focus of the horde in the faction war, blizzard's intention was obviously for the players to see it as a bad thing and rally against it, supporting baine and saurfang in bringing honor back to the horde, but the horde players failed the writers' expectations and doubled down on fascism. from here there's really no salvaging the faction. ultimately the horde players are the faction, and blizzard isn't going to write them as good if the players themselves are going to have such a visceral reaction to being told murdering children is not morally justifiable, because then the horde players will unsub.

so there's really nothing that blizzard can do now apart from continue to awkwardly ignore the schism in the horde, and if anyone asks pretend it isn't there. meanwhile the horde faction continues to be a breeding ground for the alt-right. great job, blizzard.

Hey, my dealer's been hard to get in touch with thanks to the pandemic; could I get some of whatever you're smoking?

If you think the passion for the Horde is something that comes from the era of Sylvanas in charge; you are wrong.

Now before I continue, there are definite threads of some of what you are saying that do run through the Horde and it's a big problem. You can see it with all the people in the thread clamouring to play an evil faction or seeing the Forsaken as strictly evil, genocidal and filled with hatred. These aren't positive things to have people believe or emulate.

The ravenous Horde fans of older expansions, the ones outnumbered on most servers and in most cons but still louder then the Alliance every time were there for other reasons. I mean mostly of course, caveat above still applies. The Horde in WoW was the first time for a LOT of gamers that we could play the "monstrous races" and not only NOT be evil but be largely sympathetic. More than that, these races often had aesthetics and cultures that, however rudimentary, we weren't use to seeing as Good Guys in a fantasy game; we finally had some coding that wasn't White European Christian or Super-Forest-Elf to play and it was a very welcome breath of fresh air. Better still, the races that were the typical good guys in Vanilla were WAY worse than the races that were normally stuck as the 'Bad Guys'. Stormwind had a huge bandit problem sure, but only because they'd decided to go Union Busting and had driven workers they owed money into banditry to survive. Ironforge was ruled by a sexist big enough to drive away his daughter and assume she'd been stolen because of his racial prejudices. The Dwarves invaded Alterac Valley and attacked its settled inhabitants and strip mined where ever they went.

The Horde was loved because it was different but distinctly good, diverse, open and welcoming. It was a coalition not a hegemony and its leader was well loved and moral upstanding. Then they started to milk Thrall for all he was worth and a lot of people, especially with the very vocal Alliance majority at the time but indeed most people, getting more and more sick of Thrall. And at that point why wouldn't they, he was the spotlight of the story far too often, his romance lacked real chemistry and his marriage/life-mate ceremony really forced western values where we really didn't want them (worse was Tyrande and Malfurion's wedding but neither here nor there).

Then they didn't know what they wanted to do with Garrosh; he was militaristic but many of his campaigns were initially just and followed a sort of martial sort of honour and people started to like him despite their initial concerns. Then he kidnapped a bunch of baby Magnataurs to blackmail adult Magnataurs to fight enemies he definitely believed regular Orcs could beat. Then they continued jumping 20 steps at a time down a path to villainy, never giving his growing fanbase the chance to grow to naturally hate him and being told "Boooo HATE him."

Queue 8 years of Musical Warchief with less and less defined character for a faction that started off very loyal to the position of Warchief and of course it's going to cause this kind of rift. ESPECIALLY with more and more people joining the Horde because Method said so or because War Mode was 'too imbalanced' for Allies in Legion and BfA. Of course you're going to see some comparably fascistic elements when the faction's only definition was the mantle of leadership — a cult of leadership is pretty well the most defined trait of fascism — and then the writers couldn't write their way out of a genocidal paper bag.
And mind you, if MMO-Champion hasn't changed a bunch in several months, this site in particular is disproportionately Right Wing so it's not exactly a representative sample of players.

I mean that's kind of the reason the thread exists; to try and reconcile what the Horde identity is, since we haven't really had an identity since 2012.

[Raisei]

As said, there's no argument to be made in regards to Sylvanas once her motive is known for the in-story Horde. This is an argument you could still make, and fairly easily, up to the point where it was confirmed that BTS was getting retconned rather than just working off the (correct) assumption that it would be.

No argument here. In fact I would have liked it more to have her set up as a villain that actually wants to do good for the Horde, doing bad stuff for good reasons and such. Her past does not alude to that, but I would have accepted a change of character in such a fashion.

The problem is that people like our @matrix123mko here ARE making the argument of her being better for the Horde despite knowing the facts. That is what I just can't follow.

Additionally, Baine is no more aware of what Sylvanas intends than anyone else - his actions can only be defended on a post-hoc basis, knowing what we now do about Sylvanas's objective.

Well, I disagree here. He has no clue of Sylvanas true objective of course, but his actions were meant to keep the Horde's honor alive, even if that meant loosing the war and some lives. It's a more idealistic then realistic and materialstic goal, but he did do it for the Horde's benefit. This can be defended in theory, if you believe in honor as much as Baine does and considering the orcish warcry they also would rather die then suffer the dishonor of defeat.
Take the japanese Seppuku as a real-life equivalent. Honor is so important here that you will go through a painful suicide to restore it.

The framing of the story still leaves Sylvanas capable to be enjoyed as an antagonist. Thereotically I assume, she isn't now, but making her into a servicable villain isn't that hard if they pull some more retcons and give her some actual focus as a character instead of as a story tool. Baine however has to be a hero - so we need to identify him and see his actions as admirable. But we don't - Skytotem for example is no fan of Sylvanas or Garrosh, neither are most Horde posters who have radically different views of the Horde from me. However he still dislikes Baine. The only ones who do consistently defend Baine are Alliance posters who do so out of contrarianism. And even then it's the more moderate ones. Someone like sillag hates him for being ineffectual.

I agree, as long as we do not have to listen to her mustache twirling speeches and actually get to kill her I am content to have her around.

And yes, I admit it is easier for Alliance players to defend Baine, since he did several things for our benefit. Considering all the crap the Alliance had to eat during BFA, I AM glad that we did not have to loose Jaina on top because Sylvanas 5D-assassinated her. That does color my opinion somewhat.

[Super Dickmann]

No argument here. In fact I would have liked it more to have her set up as a villain that actually wants to do good for the Horde, doing bad stuff for good reasons and such. Her past does not alude to that, but I would have accepted a change of character in such a fashion.

The problem is that people like our matrix123mko here ARE making the argument of her being better for the Horde despite knowing the facts. That is what I just can't follow.

Yes, and he's wrong. For now anyway, I wouldn't put it past Blizzard to switch tracks in Shadowlands. Excuse the tangent, but If I had to work with the same general framework and end goal and improve on Sylvanas as antagonist the thing I'd change is to just make her genuine and cut the retcon of her working for the Jailor since Edge of Night and the BTS Forsaken society retcon, instead integrate this into her storyline.

Instead of disregarding Stormheim - it's a major point for her. She had a chance to secure herself and her people for what she views as all time, but it got wrecked. More than that, the Horde leaders have caught wind of it, and while the Horde appreciates her work vs. the Legion, they don't trust her - as they didn't before BFA changed that for no reason, and the idea of enslaving a spirit doesn't sit right with them especially not the orcs and tauren, who think it looks like dark shamanism. She can make it a point about the prestige of the Horde in having its Warchief attacked - and she does, but she realizes there's an ideological rift there she can't breach, but that she must have them on her side, because she knows that Genn attacking her could happen again. The loss of Eyir also has her, rather than distancing herself from the Forsaken, obsessing over them. She institutes the BTS changes in terms of police state and ditching Lordaeron as well as resurrecting any Forsaken slain because she figures she's on a clock and also out of a twisted protectiveness.

The Desolate Council then are not saccharine sad sacks, but people who want the freedom they previously enjoyed back and who, despite their respect for her, chafe at how she's violating their social contract. This in turn also gets other movements going for them - a movement to engage with humanity, like in the book, and also the right to die. Sylvanas in turn, who believes that if she dies not just she but anyone else would go to hell, is personally offended that they're so ignorant that they'd voluntarily choose to go to hell, but she can't be honest with them, because she's already on shaky footing and admitting that she knows this because she tried to kill herself would also be admitting she almost abandoned them once already and would be a hit to her credibility she can't afford right now. She isn't even unamenable to the Desolate Council's demands exactly, but she needs a powerbase in the Horde and so squeezing the Forsaken gives her that, on top of, in her eyes, keeping them and herself safe.

I've gone for two paragraphs now and this is really for a different topic, so will cut the detail from here on out, since I'm getting too into it. Expand her chafing with the role of Warchief and set up a stand-off between her as Forsaken leader, her as someone out for herself, and her as someone moored to this job she doesn't want. Imply here that she wasn't actually chosen by the spirits. Keep the Anduin and Calia with the Forsaken plot, but have Calia be appealing not just as a throwback to Lordaeron, but because she promises them that kind of freedom that they until recently enjoyed. Keep the azerite plot but have it emphasize Sylvanas's fear of death as well as her abandonment issues about humanity - this is when you introduce the bits about conquering Stormwind and promising the Horde more lands, as expressions of her becoming less restrained and beginning to operate on a zero sum mind set, since she thinks people will attack anyway - something we as the audience would know is not true, since Anduin is genuine in going for peace. At the end, when she'd still kill Calia this'd also signify her break with the Forsaken. Even when she squeezed she can't keep them - so save for Nathanos and the dark rangers who executed the killing order from the walls, she trusts no one. Symbolically, she ditches the Forsaken here for, in her eyes, not being there for her, and commits herself to being Warchief in order to save her own skin. At this point, have her val'kyr, who've been constantly mentioned but been quiet, deferential and unhelpful, address her, and fade to black.

A later flashback would then show that here, at her very low point, that the Jailor makes his pitch through the val'kyr but she is noncommital. She thinks she can have her cake and eat it too - have the Horde and gain power through death - she does mean to win the war. What changes her mind is what happens in A Good War - when Saurfang spares Malf, someone who's rich in anima, which she now knows is important, she interprets this as not being able to trust him either, which would emphasize the part of Reckoning where she sounds genuinely hurt when referencing that and why she's so spiteful of the dude, and so after a bit, she burns the tree - this being her crossing the Rubicon moment where she decides that it'll be a war for her ascension, not to conquer the world. Then later in BFA, you'd have more emphasis on how she's not raising more Forsaken and isn't giving them preferential treatment. You'd also have much more focus on what is alluded to in Saurfang's end speech but is then more or less disregarded - that committing genocide at Teldrassil and the Horde's association with them forces them into a war of extermination that they feel trapped in. It'd make something like Baine helping Jaina and Jaina openly helping Thrall more meaningful as it'd show that this isn't actually the case and it would make the Horde turning on Sylvanas be about them realizing that they do actually have alternatives and so throwing her out, instead of being on board 100% until she says mean words.

Take the japanese Seppuku as a real-life equivalent. Honor is so important here that you will go through a painful suicide to restore it.

I catch your drift, but that's more Saurfang than Baine. It's why, much as I dislike it, both thematically and story-wise, Saurfang ends up a much better character than Baine and taken in isolation, all his story beats more or less work. Baine's don't.

[Tharivor]

this is just you being intellectually dishonest. i dont think horde fans are fascist because they are horde fans, i think they are fascist because they are actual fascists, and the horde has been written to attract those people to the faction. this is undeniably true btw, and a lot of horde writing in bfa was sourced from literal actual things that the nazis did irl.

obviously not all players are neo-nazis but most (particularly belf players) are, and the rest are too defensive of their make believe video game faction to ever admit it.

Again its an entirely fictional fantasy video game. What people play in that game has no bearing whatsoever on their personality and politics in real life because, as a game its whole purpose is to allow players to to play as characters removed from their RL selves. If you can't see this and still seriously believe that because one team is "evil" in game those who choose to play it must have done so because they are evil in real life, then I can only laugh.

I would seriously suggest maybe spending some time away from WoW rather than investing so much emotional energy and sense of belonging into a fictional war in a fictional universe. Its a game meant to be enjoyed as a fun distraction from everyday life, not as a place to fulfil deluded and paranoid fantasies about fighting RL Nazis.

To be fair, he isn't the only one. There seem to be certain folks in these boards who definitely have issues separating fiction from RL... Now that is worrying

Honestly it is very disturbing.

[omeomorfismo]

Well that's just not sustainable anymore man

Most of the horde is fed up with them and thinks it's stupid we let em stick around at all when they backstab us and render land uninhabitable

If Blizz can't manage yall being a gaggle of evil cackling zombies in a way that *doesn't* make the rest of the horde look stupid we're just gonna keep getting the same stupid plot cycle

Or blizz will have yall go calia, which is just as bad

but your suggestion and having calia are equivalent outcomes. really, the only difference is having a new flashy queen.
and i cant care less if blizz put themself in a corner writing the forsaken in the horde. they are doing the only fucking thing an rpg master shouldnt do: breaking rps.

and this isnt simply excusable.

[Gann Stonespire]

Lets not forget Baine exiled Jorn Skyseer and broke the blood oath promising the right to retribution to all members of the Horde by exiling everyone defending the Gates of Mulgore from a warcriminal backed Alliance siege.

Baine never followed a single order from the Alliance, only his own moral compass.

Saurfang could be said to have followed an instruction from Anduin, but he's dead now.

PowerRogue we've already discussed how Baine broke Horde oaths and betrayed his friends to punish those defending Mulgore from Alliance invasion..

Pretty sure people think that because Baine is not about "war and conquest!!!!" because his moral compass happens to align with the Alliance's goals of peace, that somehow means he's an "Alliance puppet/bootlicker/doormat/whatever".

Perhaps if the Horde leadership weren't such bastards (Sylvanas, Gallywix) or cowards (Baine, Rokhan) and weren't in a crusade to conquer Azeroth and wipe out the non-Horde races, perhaps they wouldn't be "word of god"-destined to lose.

Also: the Alliance can do no wrong? How about Sylvanas' pact with Helia? What about Sylvanas literally plaguing her own Horde soldiers and raising them up as undead, something that goes against the nature-alligned Taurens' culture? What about Sylvanas thoroughly plague-bombing Southshore? The Hillsbrad farms? What about Sylvanas using the Blight on Gilneas despite being explicitly told by the Warchief not to use it?

For those wondering, Ielenia is only saying that to argue with Horde posters and secretly thinks Baine is a coward too.

Infracted.

He also claims cowering and unarmed low level tauren women that announced their intent to run are dangerous military targets.

[Powerogue]

Lets not forget Baine exiled Jorn Skyseer and broke the blood oath promising the right to retribution to all members of the Horde by exiling everyone defending the Gates of Mulgore from a warcriminal backed Alliance siege.

PowerRogue we've already discussed how Baine broke Horde oaths and betrayed his friends to punish those defending Mulgore from Alliance invasion..

Yes, we did, where I made it abundantly clear that, by the standards of the Horde, that punishment for disobeying their leader was incredibly lenient, and that he did not break any oath, blood or otherwise, because it in no way inhibited them pursuing that retribution.

Now leave it be already. If Baine is willing to forgive and vouch for people who literally tried to execute him, that should be able to go both ways. None of the Horde leaders are perfect. That's how we reconcile the Horde.

[Ielenia]

For those wondering

So now you're stalking me? I've already addressed in the other thread: I simply changed my mind.

[Gann Stonespire]

Yes, we did, where I made it abundantly clear that, by the standards of the Horde, that punishment for disobeying their leader was incredibly lenient, and that he did not break any oath, blood or otherwise, because it in no way inhibited them pursuing that retribution.

That wasn't what you said back then. And by punishing them for following Tauren and Horde culture, he is breaking the oath. If an American President exiled a man from Washington for saying he doesn't believe in the word, "freedom fries, the President has taken away the man's right to free speech.

Ah, so Vendetta Point was made up in part of the tauren Baine exiled, and they ultimately saved Mulgore from siege in the Cataclysm, reinforcing that Baine was in the wrong to exile them in the first place.

And now you're literally saying

So now you're saying a racial leader should just sit back and watch his capital be sieged by the enemy including those who already genocided a tribe of his own people with no provocation and showed they intentionally target civilians.

Now leave it be already.

Leave Baine directly betraying his people and taking away their rights be? Seriously I guess we should just let Sylvanas be for burning Teldarassil by your thinking.

If Baine is willing to forgive and vouch for people who literally tried to execute him

You mean the player character, that was just poor writing to reconcile the loyalist path. Baine showed no remorse for any of his betrayals nor did he ever make up for it.

So now you're stalking me? I've already addressed in the other thread: I simply changed my mind.

I stay in the lore section of MMO-Champion, but nice job failing to flame me.

You bash the Horde in every thread and side with them on nothing even the defense of their own lands or when their civilians are murdered. Your support of Baine means nothing.