Could it be time for Universal Basic Income discussion?

[kamuimac]

"DW guys we'll just make new jobs" is literally code for "I don't understand neo-liberal economic policy".

Tell me something when a manufacturing industry dies because it was outsourced china and/or India what happens to the 56 year old factory workers? Do they go to uni and become accountants or do they go and work at another factory OH SHII-.
No, of course, they don't, the government is expected to pick up the slack until they die off. Which has the cool effect of increasing government spending ( and thus tax on the individual), lowering corporate spending and lowering corporate tax burden (super funny how that works).

Also, have you noticed that even though cheap manufacturing labour is almost universally outsourced to india/china that those countries still have destitute agrarian peasants? How does that work? It's almost like population growth has basically outstripped the economic growth since the dawn of time (which is why unemployment has always existed). Essentially without the green revolution, we all would have starved to death in the 50s.

That's without even getting into how the bullshit jobs essentially just further dilute the meagre wealth generated by lower-skill jobs, because these positions are almost always in the lower rungs of an organisation (again weird coincidence how that works).

But hey the gubmit already gets too much of my tax already so it's probably better to just let profligate mega corperations destroy our governments, economy and planet for the exclusive benefit of their stakeholders (which for some reason stopped being their employees, weird how those things keep happening). Wouldn't want to be called a pinko.


The fact some people can barely survive working full time now and already have to work a 'side gig' to actually generate wealth is a pretty damning indictment on the state of wealth distribution.

first of all they wont become accountants because soon accountants will be replaced by AI , same like analitics etc.

people have this crazy idea that automatization and robotization is only about cheap manual labour - when in fact for many companies its much more profitable to capitalize on 2nd wave of automatization and replace better paid white collar workers. like accountants, lawyers etc .

but it wont happen in 5 years more likely in span of 15-20 years.

intersting thing though - i dont know even a single person who has to do side gigs to be able to affor basic nessesities - like apartment /rent , food , clothes.

i do know plenty of people who work crazy hours because they want bigger apartment , bigger/better car , better vacations , better life standard.

[xenogear3]

The highest paid jobs, lawyers and medical doctors, will get replaced first.

This actually makes sense.
It is more incentive to develop software to cut the highest paid jobs.

[Gaidax]

The highest paid jobs, lawyers and medical doctors, will get replaced first.

You think? These are the jobs that won't be replaced by bots for a long loooooooong time.

The first jobs to go will be simple menial jobs that require no skill.

[Sorensen]

Govermnent invesing money into industries to create more jobs and provide people with fishing rod, not with fish, maybe?

Trickle down economics definitely has been shown to work.

[Queen of Hamsters]

Capitalism has too much power, and they couldn't care less about the welfare of the working classes as long as said working classes are desperate enough to keep working.

It's "unAmerican", as someone said, to provide a living wage. But the same attitude courses through many nations these days.

Out of the jobs that have disappeared, 20% went to China. The rest? Automation. We're headed for another Industrial Revolution, where wages were stagnant for workers for 90 years.

[Gaidax]

Capitalism has too much power, and they couldn't care less about the welfare of the working classes as long as said working classes are desperate enough to keep working.

It's "unAmerican", as someone said, to provide a living wage. But the same attitude courses through many nations these days.

It's really the case of feasibility. There's nothing to be salty about. I am a part of your usual working class, I earn my salary and pay my taxes and these taxes are already high and are everywhere and in a big part they are so high because the state decided to support various freeloaders and social security scammers.

And I am not talking about elderly, students (2/3 of their uni/college fee is paid by state here) or disabled, there are plenty far less deserving groups and organizations getting showered with cash out of my bloody taxes and there are also plenty of people who collect social security over made up shit.

I literally can't pay more, I'm done. It's insane how good half on my earnings go elsewhere - at some point people who bring in $$ also deserve some attention.

[Sorensen]

You think? These are the jobs that won't be replaced by bots for a long loooooooong time.

The first jobs to go will be simple menial jobs that require no skill.

Check out legalzoom.com

[Saltysquidoon]

The highest paid jobs, lawyers and medical doctors, will get replaced first.

This actually makes sense.
It is more incentive to develop software to cut the highest paid jobs.

It's really really unlikely that those jobs specifically will be replaced anytime soon, they rely way too much on informed opinion and experience as opposed to just crunching lots of facts.

It's also unlikely high paying jobs will be affected by automation first. People with money and power will never give it up. It will be unskilled and then the low skilled positions cut with the expectation that the state will pay for them while somehow those same people will still be purchasing consumer goods (corporatism never said it was a sensible system).

It's really the case of feasibility. There's nothing to be salty about. I am a part of your usual working class, I earn my salary and pay my taxes and these taxes are already high and are everywhere and in a big part they are so high because the state decided to support various freeloaders and social security scammers.

Delinquent corporate taxes (up to and including just not paying tax), trust loopholes and dogy overpriced backroom government contracts to mates from uni contribute more to your tax burden than all of the freeloaders in your country put together.

Check out legalzoom.com

No lawyer in history has actually written your will, they just sign it due to the legal requirement.
The services they're offering are exactly the simple menial jobs that paralegals, interns and secretaries do.

If this becomes commonplace They're the ones going before the actual lawyers.

[kamuimac]

You think? These are the jobs that won't be replaced by bots for a long loooooooong time.

The first jobs to go will be simple menial jobs that require no skill.

https://www.techslang.com/artificial...place-lawyers/

thats so called 3rd wave of automatization.

agreed that replacing MDs will be extremly difficult due to how differenciated all our bodies are. it would require AI of completly different caliber then what we have now - but with layers it will relatively easy

[Saltysquidoon]

https://www.techslang.com/artificial...place-lawyers/

agreed that replacing MDs will be extremly difficult due to how differenciated all our bodies are. it would require AI of completly different caliber then what we have now - but with layers it will relatively easy

Most legal research is done by paralegals/interns/students so if anyone was losing their job over that it wouldn't be the lawyers. Besides, there isn't a lawyer on earth who wouldn't want an ai to do it for them.

Generally, hearings and trials are a heavily diminishing part of the profession (and this article is clearly written from an American perspective). Jury selection in most non us jurisdictions is heavily limited to avoid time-wasting, I do agree an AI could be used to preselect candidates to avoid obvious recorded bias but no one is losing their jobs over this.

In civil cases (in non us jurisdictions) the court generally requires both side's experts confer and present their agreed opinion and then they are questioned simultaneously by the judge (a practice called hot tubbing) and are only cross-examined in extreme circumstances (again to avoid time waiting).

So client interviews may be more effective when done by an intelligent machine. All it takes is for lawyers to teach the systems to ask the right questions.

JeJ, A good lawyer can win a case interviewing their client by drawing out something legally huge that seems irrelevant. This is a perfect example of why the automatization of professions that rely heavily on educated opinion will happen last.

This is my point most of this stuff won't affect jobs and the stuff that can be automated just means the paralegals (who are most law students trying to pay for their $300 textbooks) will get shafted.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Honestly if they just made it to where normal folk don't have to pay all the fucking taxes while rich people just sit around and get richer and richer not paying shit would go a long way I think. Don't get me wrong if I would love a check just showing up in my account but I get the feel that number would just be factored into pricing and suddenly the rich find away to get a chunk of that as well while still not being taxed for it.

[Draco-Onis]

the problem is that for most of people it simply wouldnt work .

you would have to build from ground whole adoults educational support systems to re-educate them in fields like maths/physics before they even will be able to enter such colleges - and for most of people high-school level of math is already too much

do you know why work in IT , biotechnology , engeenering is so well paid and those people are so sought after ? because majority of human population dont have it in them to be able to learn that stuf due to limits of their inteligence (here i said it you can hate me for being honest ) and even a bit smarter then general population people have their limits too .

its simply impossible to achieve.

thats why for goverments of future the biggest problems to overcome will be finding them something to do . and some may even decide to put artifical blockades on technology implementation to protect their jobs - because there will be nothing to give them to do and they cant get money for free just because they breath .

imo the obvious choice that most of goverments will make in next 5-10 years will be limiting work day to 6 hours (30 hours a week) . yes people will overall earn "less" but they will still live on semi/decent level. and in next 20-30 years that work time will be most likely limited to 4 hours a day (20 hours a week) . and people will be encourage to use that additional free time for developement of their own "Services " for others.

and in before people call me crazy - 40 years ago in eastern EU it was normal to work 6 days a week (48 hours ) instead like nowadays 5 . same was with educational system - kids were going to school 6 days a week .

Actually you are overthinking it way way too much, Americans are accumulating student debt a record rates so there is more than willingness for re-education even though cost and predatory practices screw a lot of them over. There are people in certain areas of the country where it is more of a cultural issue and politicians take advantage of it by feeding them delusions about jobs coming back.

I worked in IT for a number of years you don't need a strong foundation in math/physics to do tier 1 tech support get a CCNA or a number of high end certifications and expertise, I could do it in high school while I was self taught.

[PACOX]

You think? These are the jobs that won't be replaced by bots for a long loooooooong time.

The first jobs to go will be simple menial jobs that require no skill.

Well actually, a lot of legal services can be automated. Teledoccing and AI-assisted triage has cut down the need for some manpower in healthcare. You will never cut out the human, nor would you want to, but there are processes than can be automated.

[Masark]

The US is so regressive that we likely won’t get UBI out of this.

Terrafoam seems like a plausible assessment of the USA's future.

[Unholyground]

you dont. few countries did limited population test runs and imidiately gave up the idea.

why ? because people always chose the option to just not work .

and with nobody working there would be no taxes to support this idiotic idea.

look at covid - half of people rejoiced and treated those first few weeks like extra paid vacation - because thats exackly what it has been in most of European countries . while US had protests on street due to lack of social support programs.

Not true at all, there were studies in Canada that showed people with basic income in general made their lives better and the lives of those around them.

Also I argue that not everyone should work as I don't want complete imbeciles or people who don't want to be at their job working because that drastically increases the risk of injury or death to them or others. Some people just aren't cut out to work and in most of north America it is illegal to live off the grid/land unless you are native and even then there are rules. I would rather these people live a decent life than be homeless and miserable on the streets. Just because some people will abuse something doesn't mean you don't do it or society would have gotten nowhere with that mindset.

This also doesn't mean what most people think it means, there are many things to consider and many ways to go about it that would hardly be noticed from the taxpayer standpoint. Essentially they can get rid of 90% of things related to welfare and employment insurance which in itself would pay for most of it.

[Orange Joe]

You think? These are the jobs that won't be replaced by bots for a long loooooooong time.

The first jobs to go will be simple menial jobs that require no skill.

Do you think driving a semi is a menial no skill job? Cause that is one of the industries looking into automation.

[LilSaihah]

A discussion would be interesting but I think it's a bad idea. UBI seems to me like it'd work well when there is low unemployment but at the moment there's a lot.

The main argument I can see in favor of rebalancing social welfare programs would be moving a lot of money into education to try to encourage large scale reskilling, but I don't have much confidence that anyone would carry that kind of reform out well.

[Sorensen]

Do you think driving a semi is a menial no skill job? Cause that is one of the industries looking into automation.

They may still need "drivers" just doing different things now that that they don't have to focus on the road. myself, having a self driving car is super nice especially on longer trips and you can enjoy scenery and its just so much easier on the eyes and body.

[Unholyground]

They may still need "drivers" just doing different things now that that they don't have to focus on the road. myself, having a self driving car is super nice especially on longer trips and you can enjoy scenery and its just so much easier on the eyes and body.

Very likely what is going to happen and should happen is smart roads with lanes specifically for automated trucks, there would be maintenance stops/checks all over the place and that is where the new jobs will be.

The great part is there will be lanes for people who have self driving cars as well.

[xenogear3]

A discussion would be interesting but I think it's a bad idea. UBI seems to me like it'd work well when there is low unemployment but at the moment there's a lot.

When the unemployment rate is low, people who have jobs would vote against UBI.
The only reason you see this topic is because the unemployment is high right now.

US is almost impossible.
Look at how selfish these companies are. They fire people before the lockdown happens.