The Last of Us Part II

[melzas]

Just finished it myself and it was definetely one of the best stories I went through.

I'm trying to understand Abby hate, assuming you still hate her after you've went through with entire story. I mean, come on, Joel is probably one of my favourite characters ever and his death scene was freaking difficult to watch for me, but objectively speaking he did much worse trying to save Ellie and Ellie on her revange quest was so much, much more ruthless... Eh, I felt bad for everyone by the end of the game.

You know, when reading through some minor spoilers/memes and rants about game being SJW propaganda and Abby being a "trap", I was actually expecting something else from her storyline. I legit thought she was gonna come around as trans or something, but she is just a female athlete, a soldier obsessed with her training, so it's rather sad that people have problem with that character. Give me the impression that even though most would deny it, average consumer wants cliche stories and standard template characters. People can't get over their favourite character not dying a "glorious, meaningful death" with powerful last words, people can't get over female protagonist who isn't another version of sexy Lara Croft with nice boobs... That's the impression I get when I read angry posts about the game. Abby is flawed, not very pretty, not very likeable either, at least at first glance, but she is a good person who lived with a burden of her dad's murder. Not to mention I think she was kinda badass, when she smashed that fat Scar's head in with a hammer.

I loved the game. It was a great emotional ride with no easy answers or solutions. Perhaps a bit too bumpy for your average gamer though.

- - - Updated - - -

So no one will comment of how the hell Tommy survived being shot in the face at point blank?

I love the game and I enjoyed it a lot and almost getting platinum trophy on it. But that doesnt mean I have to sugar coat all of the BS and things that doesnt make sense at all.

Heh, that's the biggest immersion ruiner in TLOU both part 1 and 2 for me. The amount of injuries people can sustain and get away with is crazy. I didn't think that head shot was that crazy, if you rewatch the scene you can kinda see how he got shot on the side of his head, kinda plausible it was a "cheek shot" rather than your standard "head shot". Bigger offender for me was definetly Ellie with a bunch of "got massacred and shouldn't be able to move, but nope, lets swim" scenes, with the crown jewel being that Rattler leg trap scene, where she gets impaled on the tree, bleeds out, hangs upside down for god knows how long, get's cut down, kicked and still have enough strenght to overpower a grown up man. Come on, that was too much for me.

[SirCowdog]

Guys...the whole clickbait title thing is way off topic. I only used UEGs review as a point of reference for my initial opinion on the game.

You know...the game we're supposed to be discussing? I could easily write pages on the nature of YouTube, or judging books by their cover, or dismissing opinions without actually listening to them first.

But let's not. I'd rather keep things civil snd on topic.

[Stormdash]

I'm not a marine biologist, but it seems that if you are trying to declare as a core narrative theme that Revenge is Bad.... then Revenge should actually be consistently Bad in your pretty narrow story. "Revenge is Bad" -- unless it's cathartic and provides you with initiative to grow as a person and are ultimately shown mercy because it's more important that someone else break the cycle of revenge than it is for you to have just let go of a four year obsession with murder.

Revenge is Bad... unless you're her, basically.

[DarkAmbient]

Because it's not based around any valid criticisms. I've looked into a bunch of people who claim the story sucked and it begins and ends with them not liking that Joel died and being unable to accept it while proceeding to hate the game no matter what after it happened.

Why is my opinion that the writing is poor not valid? I accept other people will feel differently, but you are just trying to devalue my opinion purely because you disagree with it. And you obviously didn't read my posts properly, because I've not mentioned Joel's death as a reason for the writing being bad...

[Stormdash]

Because it's not based around any valid criticisms. I've looked into a bunch of people who claim the story sucked and it begins and ends with them not liking that Joel died and being unable to accept it while proceeding to hate the game no matter what after it happened. I've even seen people argue that Joel is simply too good at what he does to die the way he did despite the fact that considering the context of the situation there was literally nothing he could have done to avoid it. While others argue that they just don't like the way he died, that if he was going to die it should be as melodramatic as possible because god forbid his death be messy, sudden or real because he's simply too good for that despite the fact that that has always been the kind of tone these games follow.

And if people hate it because Joel died? Fine, but own up to it saying the story simply sucks is just cashing in on the current popular trend, even SkillUp whose opinion I honestly believe was genuine chose to cash in on the trend when he realized how popular his review was by taking potshots at the game on twitter.

https://twitter.com/SkillUpYT/status...673990144?s=20

Not liking that the main character of the first game is summarily, dismissively, and rather gratuitously killed off almost immediately IS a valid criticism of the writing. That it was out of left field and inconsistent with his character, and rather than foreshadow that they decide to slap you with a fish and then later just try to rationalize it in hindsight IS a valid criticism of the writing.

[Skorpionss]

One thing I never thought I'd say though is that I like that Ellie didn't kill Abby at the end, however that is entirely due to headcanon. I choose to view it as her sparing abby because she didn't want to take Abby away from Lev, in the same way Abby took Joel away from her. I would have liked it even more if they actually all left there together, with Ellie taking them back to her farm, I mean if you're gonna go with the whole revenge is bad thing and letting go and forgiveness, then that would have completed that story perfectly imo.

[Fencers]

Not liking that the main character of the first game is summarily, dismissively, and rather gratuitously killed off almost immediately IS a valid criticism of the writing.

What do you mean by dismissive and summarily here? I do agree with you on all that you mentioned being a valid basis for criticism (that is true of anything not fallacious actually), but while gratuitous in depiction (graphic) the other two claims I have seen no evidence of in the game thus far.

Certainly not 'dismissive', it is the exact opposite as it the motivation of both the leads and the entire plot is driven by the action. Moreover, many of the principal characters are informed by the action- sometimes only informed as such as a weak point IMO. Doesn't seem dismissive when it is the entire reason and excuse for the in-game plot.

I could understand taking issue with the shock of the action. But the formality?

The way you worded this is weird. Maybe I'm reading you incorrectly.

[everydaygamer]

I'm not a marine biologist, but it seems that if you are trying to declare as a core narrative theme that Revenge is Bad.... then Revenge should actually be consistently Bad in your pretty narrow story. "Revenge is Bad" -- unless it's cathartic and provides you with initiative to grow as a person and are ultimately shown mercy because it's more important that someone else break the cycle of revenge than it is for you to have just let go of a four year obsession with murder.

Revenge is Bad... unless you're her, basically.

Abby's life was destroyed because of her decision to enact revenge against Joel and it only started to improve when she decided to try and make better choices.

The point of the game isn't that revenge is bad it's that our choices have consequences that ultimately affect not only yourself but those around you.

[Kallisto]

Guys...the whole clickbait title thing is way off topic. I only used UEGs review as a point of reference for my initial opinion on the game.

You know...the game we're supposed to be discussing? I could easily write pages on the nature of YouTube, or judging books by their cover, or dismissing opinions without actually listening to them first.

But let's not. I'd rather keep things civil snd on topic.

Click bait isn't way off topic. It shows the point of the actual mind of the person who is making the video. When you use "Hurr durr the SJWs, the leftist, blah blah." in titles of your videos, it just shows that your views are shit, your mind is shit, that you are shit and should be not only ignored but also others told how shit of a being you are and that your views in basically everything should be just ignored.

[Malix Farwin]

The entire channel is clickbait headlines about SJW boogeyman nonsense. There's better takes on why the game has significant flaws.

Did you take a look at the videos or the titles alone? You cant really convey anything with a title alone.

[PaladinSum]

Click bait isn't way off topic. It shows the point of the actual mind of the person who is making the video. When you use "Hurr durr the SJWs, the leftist, blah blah." in titles of your videos, it just shows that your views are shit, your mind is shit, that you are shit and should be not only ignored but also others told how shit of a being you are and that your views in basically everything should be just ignored.

So, people saying this is the SJW agenda are indeed idiots. But, they match pretty well with the people who claim (In this thread, funny enough) the bad reviews are anti-lgbt.

Even though the previous game is still sitting above 80 on user score with our adorable lesbians on the cover. You'd think if this was a real thing, the previous entry would also be a 3. Or any other game with gay people in the marketing. How strange that it's only this game that people placed extreme emotional investment in people thinking it's good.

[Tech614]

Did you take a look at the videos or the titles alone? You cant really convey anything with a title alone.

You absolutely can because it's either 1) his thoughts. In that case they would be trash. Or 2) the community he is trying to cater to. In that case still trash.

[A Chozo]

You absolutely can because it's either 1) his thoughts. In that case they would be trash. Or 2) the community he is trying to cater to. In that case still trash.

You are disregarding lots of arguments and proofs just because you don't like the person saying it.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

You are disregarding lots of arguments and proofs just because you don't like the person saying it.

His arguments are garbage and should be disregarded because he lacks a basic understanding of the things the game puts on full display for you.

[Tech614]

proofs

Pretty sure anyone scared of the SJW boogeyman doesn't even know the definition of the word proof.

[RCA]

So putting aside some things, gameplay similar to first and no multiplayer? And ideas to add that later on, enjoyed the first multiplayer for a little while after you got through the story.

[PaladinSum]

Pretty sure anyone scared of the SJW boogeyman doesn't even know the definition of the word proof.

As opposed to people who fear the anti-lgbt Boogeyman in video games.

[Koriani]

I also find anyone claiming they don't like the game because it uses "tropes" or "cliches" to just be using buzzwords for the sake of it. Tropes are tropes for a reason and same with cliches and every story uses them so claiming something isn't new ground is an incredibly disingenuous argument when no story in modern day is "new ground". Human history at this point is vast and almost every possible topic has been explored in media and art.

Oh and I shouldn't have to say it, but not liking something is not a blanket for anyone to claim something is poorly written. This game literally has actual non video game writers praising it(which is rare) but you think random forum user is a proper critique on writing? You don't have to like something for it to be good writing. The opposite is also true, liking something does not mean it was written well.

Damn straight.

Everything done now is a 'trope' of some sort. There are, literally, no new plots under the sun. At all. Haven't been for possibly hundreds of years lol. You can go into Campbell and Jung to explain it all - but I ain't going to because other people have done it better than me. Go google search the names if you don't know what I'm talking about.

So to say you don't like something because its a trope - I feel sorry for you. It means you probably don't like much of anything written in a book or put up on screen - because they are ALL based around common 'tropes'. There's only so many motivations for humans, and they come down to only a handful.

Now certainly some tropes are more well done or well written. But there isn't any story written that doesn't, at its core, deal with what people now refer to as 'tropes'. New word, old concept.

At least its easy to page through here and figure out real quick who knows how to critique/give a legit review (despite how they liked or didn't like something) and who simply doesn't like something and has decided therefore it is without merit, because they don't like it. Lots of great works of art and writing I don't care for, but I am smart enough to know that doesn't mean they aren't great or well done.

The sheer fact that this game can cause such polarizing opinions ON its "tropes" and that it results in an emotional reaction (positive or negative) in so many people - means its a 'well done' game. (Emotions other than anger at a broken game) Even if you hate the storyline and don't agree with its conclusions- doesn't mean the game is 'bad'. Just means you don't like it.

[Kolvarg]

As opposed to people who fear the anti-lgbt Boogeyman in video games.

The difference being there are actually anti-lgbt people giving bad reviews to the game, while there's no apparent "SJW" propaganda driven by the game.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure they are a minority and most people don't care about it, and one shouldn't assume that any one person who dislikes the game is because of that reason. But it at least is based on something that does happen - and on the internet it's sometimes hard to measure how prevalent an opinion is, especially since you are only exposed to the most vocal.

Now that the game has been out for a while and people actually played it, there are a lot more "normal" reviews coming out. And I do believe metacritic removed a lot of those reviews that had such language. But in the first hours after release it was a mess, and I can see how one could think that was most of the hate being thrown at the game.

[Gorsameth]

Abby's life was destroyed because of her decision to enact revenge against Joel and it only started to improve when she decided to try and make better choices.

The point of the game isn't that revenge is bad it's that our choices have consequences that ultimately affect not only yourself but those around you.

Or you could see that the moral is that if your going to kill someone make sure you take out everyone who cared about them to stop them from coming after you.
And definitely don't show mercy because that just means other people around you end up dead.