The Last of Us Part II

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I don't agree that it's "heavy bullshit". I think the points you're making about TLOU2 would be much stronger if it was a standalone game. Or just not about Joel and Ellie. Swap them with new characters in the same universe, and the game probably would have received much less controversy. In fact, I think it probably would have been a better game, and allowed the story to focus more on Abby's character progression rather than Ellie's downfall. But I think it's very unfair to ignore that the first game exists, with a powerful emotional investment by many players. Emotions that were trampled ruthlessly by Druckmann in order to brute force certain feelings from players.

"Ellie bad, Abby good" may very well be an oversimplification of what's going on, but it is non-the-less a tactic that is being used in the game. And I personally think it detracts from the good points of the story that you've been describing.

that's the thing though its not a tactic the game uses at all. the game both tells and shows you that abbie isn't good its the whole point of her character arc that shes trying to be better after she got her revenge as it didn't actually do any thing. her whole arc is literally the same as kratos in GOW4 its not a good person being good its a bad person trying to be better and the game puts this on display again and again though out your play time as her.

[PaladinSum]

No, it's not, it was Abby's dog but we don't know that at the time. At that moment it's just another dog like all the others we run into that have been annoying us up until that point.

The reason we play as Ellie first then Abby is so that as Ellie we only ever see the wolves as the bad guys and then as Abby, we're forced to see things from Abby's perspective and realize how a change of perspective can easily change how you see things.

In my opinion, this wouldn't work if we were constantly switching back forth as some wanted.

It also falls apart when you become blatantly aware of the fact the story desperately wants to bludgeon you into going "See? Abby is totally good and not a psychopath." Everyone is a psychopath, including Ellie.

And the only psychopath I can give a shit about is Lev. At least Lev isn't insane.

[SirCowdog]

that's the thing though its not a tactic the game uses at all. the game both tells and shows you that abbie isn't good its the whole point of her character arc that shes trying to be better after she got her revenge as it didn't actually do any thing. her whole arc is literally the same as kratos in GOW4 its not a good person being good its a bad person trying to be better and the game puts this on display again and again though out your play time as her.

All of that at the expense of Ellie and Joel, who are pre-existing, loved characters.

I really think that you're underestimating the impact of that.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

All of that at the expense of Ellie and Joel, who are pre-existing, loved characters.

I really think that you're underestimating the impact of that.

I'm not underestimating the impact of it i'm just not letting it blind me to what the game actually is. yes people wanted a ellie joel game yes they could have made one, but they didn't and what they did make isn't some bull shit about ellie bad abbie good its no where near that simple and never once portrayed that way.

[Tech614]

All of that at the expense of Ellie and Joel, who are pre-existing, loved characters.

I really think that you're underestimating the impact of that.

You seem to be arguing in bad faith with a clear lack of knowledge of the game if you think anything came at expense to Ellie when the entire game is building her character. The fact they make you "walk in the shoes" of her antagonist doesn't change this fact. If you wanted to argue with actual knowledge of the game you would be saying Joel died at the expense of building Ellie's character, because it really had little to do with building Abby's. The game even shows it did nothing for Abby which is the entire point of her arc.

Also save me the loved character shit, thinking because you like a character it should make them immortal would be a terrible approach to writing. If you honestly think Druckmann, Baker or all the other members of the team didn't like Joel idk what to tell you. They still made the tough(and right) decision to remove him so the story could move forward being fully about Ellie(because it was always about Ellie, Joel was just a plot device to get her where she was.) Then again why am I even replying to a person who admitted they didn't even play the game and got their knowledge about it through a youtuber known for clickabaiting about "SJWs". Who knows, just bored I suppose.

[SirCowdog]

I'm not underestimating the impact of it i'm just not letting it blind me to what the game actually is. yes people wanted a ellie joel game yes they could have made one, but they didn't and what they did make isn't some bull shit about ellie bad abbie good its no where near that simple and never once portrayed that way.

Then we'll have to agree to disagree.

As I said earlier, I have no investment(emotional or otherwise) in the game or its reviews. Maybe that lets me see both sides more clearly, I don't know. I completely understand where you're coming from, but I also see the validity of the "Ellie bad, Abby good" arguments. You say that it was never once portrayed that way, but there seems to me to be clear indications that the contrast between Ellie and Abby was very much intended.

- - - Updated - - -

You seem to be arguing in bad faith with a clear lack of knowledge of the game if you think anything came at expense to Ellie when the entire game is building her character. The fact they make you "walk in the shoes" of her antagonist doesn't change this fact. If you wanted to argue with actual knowledge of the game you would be saying Joel died at the expense of building Ellie's character, because it really had little to do with building Abby's. The game even shows it did nothing for Abby which is the entire point of her arc.

I will grant that I have only watched a 10 hour version of the game, and didn't actually play it myself. I stated this earlier on in the thread, that the gameplay held no interest for me. If you want to view that as a "lack of knowledge", fine. It's even entirely possible that the cut of the game I watched left parts out that gives you a different perspective. That's fair, but please make arguments using those examples instead of trying to paint me as arguing in bad faith. That way we can have a discussion about the game, and not about me.

[Edge-]

As I said earlier, I have no investment(emotional or otherwise) in the game or its reviews. Maybe that lets me see both sides more clearly, I don't know.

Leaning towards no, because I similarly have no real investment in either but given everything I've seen and read you're grossly mischaracterizing the themes and messages, and the "Abby good, Ellie bad" nonsense isn't reinforced by anything in the actual game unless you selective see a few bits out of context.

I completely understand where you're coming from, but I also see the validity of the "Ellie bad, Abby good" arguments.

Honestly, I've seen nothing that supports that in this thread or elsewhere. And by supports, I mean actual arguments and information, not half-snippers and overgeneralizations that miss pretty key plot elements.

You say that it was never once portrayed that way, but there seems to me to be clear indications that the contrast between Ellie and Abby was very much intended.

They're mirrors. That's not to say "opposites", but to say "a different view of the same thing". The point being that they're surprisingly more alike than not, having similar struggles and challenges and painfully learning similar lessons. The "contrast" was to provide different perspectives to more fully characterize each.

[Tech614]

instead of trying to paint me as arguing in bad faith.

I don't have to try, you do it on your own by admitting to having no interest in the game and then trying to critique it for things you don't even properly understand.

The game never portrays Ellie as bad and Abby as good or vice versa.

The plot killed Joel to advance Ellie's story, not to advance Abby's. The game made you play as Abby... shocker... to advance Ellie's storyline and not to try and force sympathy for Abby. The entire game was made to be about Ellie and advance her story and it is even said as much in the spoiler filled interviews if you would bother to listen to them.

These aren't subjective matters, these are facts.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Then we'll have to agree to disagree.

As I said earlier, I have no investment(emotional or otherwise) in the game or its reviews. Maybe that lets me see both sides more clearly, I don't know. I completely understand where you're coming from, but I also see the validity of the "Ellie bad, Abby good" arguments. You say that it was never once portrayed that way, but there seems to me to be clear indications that the contrast between Ellie and Abby was very much intended.

If not invested in the game it self id say you seem to have a fairly good investment in the crappy reviewer who coined the phrase. there really is no way to view the game that backs up that view the game explicitly tells and shows you other wise multiple times though out the game and you'd have to ignore each and every example or be arguing in bad faith to say other wise.

[PaladinSum]

Leaning towards no, because I similarly have no real investment in either but given everything I've seen and read you're grossly mischaracterizing the themes and messages, and the "Abby good, Ellie bad" nonsense isn't reinforced by anything in the actual game unless you selective see a few bits out of context.



Honestly, I've seen nothing that supports that in this thread or elsewhere. And by supports, I mean actual arguments and information, not half-snippers and overgeneralizations that miss pretty key plot elements.



They're mirrors. That's not to say "opposites", but to say "a different view of the same thing". The point being that they're surprisingly more alike than not, having similar struggles and challenges and painfully learning similar lessons. The "contrast" was to provide different perspectives to more fully characterize each.

Is that why Ellie wimps out instead of doing an extended torture sequence because the person she wants to kill killed her (surrogate) father?

It's strange they went that route instead of her killing her and fully realizing her revenge is empty. And I'm sure Abby, who you claim isn't good, has learned from this like a not good person would.

[Edge-]

Is that why Ellie wimps out instead of doing an extended torture sequence because the person she wants to kill killed her (surrogate) father?

https://www.denofgeek.com/games/the-...llie-spoilers/

I'm not sure which part you're specifically responding to but like...that's kinda explained?

It's strange they went that route instead of her killing her and fully realizing her revenge is empty. And I'm sure Abby, who you claim isn't good, has learned from this like a not good person would.

Because one character already learned that lesson. Had her revenge, and learned that it was empty. Bookending it with the same lesson being "learned" in the same way would be pointless.

Abby isn't good. She's also not bad. Neither character is good or bad when you have a full picture from both their perspectives. That, again, seems to largely be one of the major points of the game.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Is that why Ellie wimps out instead of doing an extended torture sequence because the person she wants to kill killed her (surrogate) father?

It's strange they went that route instead of her killing her and fully realizing her revenge is empty. And I'm sure Abby, who you claim isn't good, has learned from this like a not good person would.

even bad people realize revenge is empty, this isn't a new concept kratos realized it as did the punisher its been around for years. Dina and Lev are the only characters shown to be good through out the game.

[Jastall]

I don't think the ending is making that statement. I honestly don't think Ellie gives a fuck. It's more about Ellie letting go and moving on. There's no moral lesson about Abby's life suddenly mattering, it's that Ellie is tired and exhausted with the rage that's consumed her, and she needs to move on if she ever wants any hope of having any sort of life.

Like, you're inserting your own metanarrative suggesting what the authors are saying, when the narrative makes it fairly clear what they're actually saying.

And the ending you suggest precisely WOULDN'T mesh with the themes of the game. The themes of the game are about despair, and how all-consuming rage and revenge is, and how it is just an endless downward spiral. Ellie is lost at the end of the story, but with the ending it has some hope. There's a hope that she can find normalcy now. Her actions are the first step out of the pit - much like the first steps Abby made previously in the story.

I can't see how you think your ending "meshes with the themes."

Because hope precisely doesn't mesh with an endless downward spiral, not the way the game portrayed Ellie's story and character. Ellie has no reason to have enough at that moment, dealing with that precise character. She ditched Dina to go after Abby, she made it clear hope or a future is less important to her than revenge at all costs... until that moment, because, um, reasons and she saw Joel and stuff. The narrative doesn't build up to it properly. The full on indiscriminate revenge murder spree train brakes very suddenly for no adequately explained reason, seemingly other than because the plot says so. Had Ellie refused to fight Abby, maybe I could have gotten the message, but that's not what happens. She musters every effort to reach and kill her target since day 1 of the plot, has said target dead to rights, and then just leaves. Then comes back and Dina is gone. So she has neither revenge nor hope after all.

Basically the message to me is "don't half-ass things". Had Abby and co. murdered Ellie and Tommy alongside Joel they would have gotten away with everything. Had Ellie either stayed with Dina or killed Abby, she would have had either revenge or a future, now she has neither. I don't think that was the intended takeaway.

[Fencers]

There is some Call of Duty level.shit going down on this island.

Do you eventually acquire a bazooka? For the love of papyrus.

[Tech614]

There is some Call of Duty level.shit going down on this island.

Do you eventually acquire a bazooka? For the love of papyrus.

Nah but you have a Mortal Kombat level 1v1 melee fight.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Because hope precisely doesn't mesh with an endless downward spiral, not the way the game portrayed Ellie's story and character. Ellie has no reason to have enough at that moment, dealing with that precise character. She ditched Dina to go after Abby, she made it clear hope or a future is less important to her than revenge at all costs... until that moment, because, um, reasons and she saw Joel and stuff. The narrative doesn't build up to it properly. The full on indiscriminate revenge murder spree train brakes very suddenly for no adequately explained reason, seemingly other than because the plot says so. Had Ellie refused to fight Abby, maybe I could have gotten the message, but that's not what happens. She musters every effort to reach and kill her target since day 1 of the plot, has said target dead to rights, and then just leaves. Then comes back and Dina is gone. So she has neither revenge nor hope after all.

Basically the message to me is "don't half-ass things". Had Abby and co. murdered Ellie and Tommy alongside Joel they would have gotten away with everything. Had Ellie either stayed with Dina or killed Abby, she would have had either revenge or a future, now she has neither. I don't think that was the intended takeaway.

Except this isn't at all how things play out. Ellie goes after Abby for closure she doesn't have the righteous revengeful fury she had years before shes a person who has PTSD both because of the things she did to find abbie and because of what happens to her instead of the vengeous hungry hunter she was years before. her Murder train breaks after there first fight she isn't the one looking for leads she isn't the one who wants to find her shes with dina trying to live and suffering of PTSD because of what happens. this isn't even something that comes out of nowhere, the narrative builds it up all through out the game when it shows the mental total all of the kills are having on her multiple times leading into her PTSD. when she actually finds abbie the second time she's not angry shes tried and doesn't even fully react. it's not till they get to the boats where she is triggered into action and even then she doesn't just want abbie dead she wants closure which she thinks she can get from another fight. when shes drowning abbie said closures dawns on her she isn't getting any thing out of killing her shes accomplishing nothing just like abbie didn't get rid of her nightmares after she killed joel. with all of these compounding factors factors and realizing that abbie is caring for a kid must like joel was for her she realizes that killing her serves nothing and lets her go, after all this ellie is nothing but exhausted she has her closure but it doesn't actually change any thing which is a direct mirror to what happens with abbie.

[Gigantique]

This game would probably have been pretty top-tier if Joel, Ellie and the Jackson community was swapped out for a bloke named John, a woman named Carol and a community named Huckson (in other words, no characters returning from tLoU 1). A beloved character of the protagonist dying as a catalyst for the plot is a well-worn and standard trope that works, but it gets 100% torpedoed for me by the fact that it sacrificed Joel at the very beginning, a character I had waited since the announcement to see more of, even tho it was pretty guaranteed he was gonna die at some point.

New characters where the mentor dies suddenly and unexpectedly at the start? Good stuff, let's see where that pushes our protag. Joel being that death? Me feeling cheated out of more screentime for Joel will overshadow anything else the game wanted to tell me.

[PaladinSum]

https://www.denofgeek.com/games/the-...llie-spoilers/

I'm not sure which part you're specifically responding to but like...that's kinda explained?



Because one character already learned that lesson. Had her revenge, and learned that it was empty. Bookending it with the same lesson being "learned" in the same way would be pointless.

Abby isn't good. She's also not bad. Neither character is good or bad when you have a full picture from both their perspectives. That, again, seems to largely be one of the major points of the game.

No. Abby is still pretty bad for gleefully being ready to cut open the throat of a pregnant woman. No amount of "But her dad/Mel" is saving her.

Meanwhile, Ellie actually nearly blacks out after a kill in self defense in between headshotting IWF squads.

You can like Abby all you want. Nothing is saying she actually learned to let go. And neither did Ellie. The game ended.

Lev is the only person in that game worth trying to understand. And that's a sign of failure if background characters look better than Abby, the best worst person.

[Tech614]

This game would probably have been pretty top-tier if Joel, Ellie and the Jackson community was swapped out for a bloke named John, a woman named Carol and a community named Huckson (in other words, no characters returning from tLoU 1). A beloved character of the protagonist dying as a catalyst for the plot is a well-worn and standard trope that works, but it gets 100% torpedoed for me by the fact that it sacrificed Joel at the very beginning, a character I had waited since the announcement to see more of, even tho it was pretty guaranteed he was gonna die at some point.

New characters where the mentor dies suddenly and unexpectedly at the start? Good stuff, let's see where that pushes our protag. Joel being that death? Me feeling cheated out of more screentime for Joel will overshadow anything else the game wanted to tell me.

Joel has an ass load of screen time in the game. It doesn't end with his death. He has more screen time then Jesse and Tommy, about the same as Dina and more then any of Abby's crew outside of maybe Owen.

This seems like the most bullshit complaint I heard today. Joel doesn't lack screen time in this game.

[Gigantique]

Joel has an ass load of screen time in the game. It doesn't end with his death. He has more screen time then Jesse and Tommy, about the same as Dina and more then any of Abby's crew outside of maybe Owen.

This seems like the most bullshit complaint I heard today. Joel doesn't lack screen time in this game.

Sure thing my weirdly consistently aggressive person. Joel dies before the game even properly kicks off. Whatever screen-time he'll have for me later on in the game will be flashbacks, Other than acting as a "damn it was nice to think of that while I slept" from Ellie (the only one I've seen so far), some hallucination telling her if she's really gonna do this kiddo (like in the trailer) etc is merely fluff, or at the very best serves to give Ellie/whoever has a flashback some minor growth. Joel himself is toast, and for someone who waited eagerly to see him and Ellie share more interactions while chasing down whatever revenge Ellie wanted it's a pretty massive letdown.

But by all means, fire up your tactics of being impotently aggressive in your replies to... What, batter down any dissenting opinions? Don't get me wrong, it's cute, however inneffective!