SPOILERS: Shadowlands Intro Faction Leader Weirdness

[Skytotem]

For some bizarre reason, Blizz has Calia and Valeera standing off in the Horde grouping.

Why on earth is Valeera there? Did they really need a second blood elf with the Horde after Lor'themar?

Why not have Calia stand in between if she's supposed to be neutral? Blizz has lots of old forsaken characters (or at least Lillian) they could use and start building up.




Some other screens from The Red Shirt Guy

https://twitter.com/TheRedShirtGuy/s...597999104?s=20

[Powerogue]

I find it interesting that her allegiance is neutral, while the other horde leaders are unfriendly. I wonder if she's weighed as neutral to the horde side as well.

Valeera is the weirdest one I'd say, she's Anduin's spy, even if she's kind of been a cross-faction messenger as well.

[Lohal]

It’s quite interesting that thalyssra and valeera have their name colors as friendly to alliance, calia neutral, whereas lorthemar and rokhan are unfriendly. There might be a second layer of information there.

[Skytotem]

It’s quite interesting that thalyssra and valeera have their name colors as friendly to alliance, calia neutral, whereas lorthemar and rokhan are unfriendly. There might be a second layer of information there.

Likely just leftovers from Valeera and Thalyssra's older model appearances in the game, I wouldn't read too much into it.

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Oh jeez apparently Baine gets captured *again* along with a bunch of the other leaders.

[Jester Joe]

Calia had several quests going this route, ending with her meeting Lilian and Lilian basically asking her to help the Forsaken.

Past that, for Valeera? I don't see this as her being aligned with Horde, but more that she knows the real hostile parties there would be rightfully Tyrande and Genn.

And with Anduin being in danger, she'd stand on the side of protecting the Horde leaders to prevent further issues from saving Anduin.

[Accendor]

It’s quite interesting that thalyssra and valeera have their name colors as friendly to alliance, calia neutral, whereas lorthemar and rokhan are unfriendly. There might be a second layer of information there.

Its especially strange Thalyssra and the alliance should be on really bad terms right now. You know, given the fact that the alliance saved her ass and reconquered suramer for her and in return her people committed genocide 2 weeks later.

[Maljinwo]

Man, Rokhan and Muradin need a unique model


Calia and Valeera are weird choices...

[Skytotem]

Calia had several quests going this route, ending with her meeting Lilian and Lilian basically asking her to help the Forsaken.

Past that, for Valeera? I don't see this as her being aligned with Horde, but more that she knows the real hostile parties there would be rightfully Tyrande and Genn.

And with Anduin being in danger, she'd stand on the side of protecting the Horde leaders to prevent further issues from saving Anduin.

Then Valeera and Calia should be in the middle, not on the sides of the factions.

[Jamais]

Its especially strange Thalyssra and the alliance should be on really bad terms right now. You know, given the fact that the alliance saved her ass and reconquered suramer for her and in return her people committed genocide 2 weeks later.

Alliance didn't do jack shit to save Suramar. Players were there on the behalf of their order hall, not factions.

And even when we do take factions in consideration, belfs sent more manpower, and were overall just nicer and understanding, unlike stuck up and judgy Tyrande who let Thalyssra know exactly why she was there (hint, not to help NB). Tyrande's handling post Nightborne rebellion was atrocious.

The truth is, Suramar was saved foremost by its citizens, if you payed any attention to the second half of Insurrection.

About the genocide comment, if i recall, there wasn't a single NB during Teldrassil event and in 8.2. Nothing in game even suggests that they are opnely hostile to nelf or any other memeber of the Alliance.

Other then that, Suramar and Nightborne are horde for good, and their reasons to join were spot on. NB have also shown, in a much smaller time frame, more maturity then Nelfs. From arrogant, high on arcane ''superiors'' who whid under their shielf for 10 000 years, they opened up to the rest of world and willingly shut down Nightwell, even embracing their nature side once again via Arcan'dor.

Even their in game models, while not as good as NPC ones, are better then NELF, especially the males.

[Skytotem]

Alliance didn't do jack shit to save Suramar. Players were there on the behalf of their order hall, not factions

Tyrande and Vereesa literally had alliance military forces there.

[Jester Joe]

Then Valeera and Calia should be in the middle, not on the sides of the factions.

For what purpose though?

It makes little to no sense.

Calia is aligned with the Forsaken now, along with Derek. Jaina knows they left to help others in the same kinda situation as Derek.

But Jaina isn't there. Neither is Anduin who helped rez Calia. So all that's left is Genn out of people who were directly there for Calia's plight. It makes more sense for her to stand near her new allies, especially since her role is to help the Forsaken regain the trust of the Horde after the hole Sylvanas left.

Valeera being in the middle would serve little to no purpose either. She doesn't need to prove her neutrality by randomly standing in the middle alone, and again it makes perfect sense that she would feel like the Horde leaders are in danger of Tyrande trying to attack them.

Alliance didn't do jack shit to save Suramar. Players were there on the behalf of their order hall, not factions.

And even when we do take factions in consideration, belfs sent more manpower, and were overall just nicer and understanding, unlike stuck up and judgy Tyrande who let Thalyssra know exactly why she was there (hint, not to help NB). Tyrande's handling post Nightborne rebellion was atrocious.

The truth is, Suramar was saved foremost by its citizens, if you payed any attention to the second half of Insurrection.

Pretty sure the player doesn't have control of the Night elf army, which did have forces there. Not sure how you could miss the Ancients walking around fighting.

[Nagawithlegs]

I can see them having Calia as the Forsaken leader but never having her be a part of the Horde.

[CalamityHeart]

Most of what I read about the Shadowlands intro experience is weird and underwhelming. Calia placing herself on the Horde side of this discussion at Icecrown is probably the least weird thing about it all, and it's not even really that weird. Her making the decision to be the leader that the Forsaken need has been more than hinted at in BFA. It's not that surprising to me.

What's weird to me is that Anduin, Jaina, Baine, and Thrall aren't dead. If Sylvanas was able to capture them, why would she not kill them? It would certainly get them to the Maw much faster, and as a prison of the dead, I don't immediately see what the point is in having them be living prisoners for any amount of time. I have to imagine there's some point to keeping them alive for however long they've been in there, but it's just really confusing. I'm holding off full judgment until we're deeper into Shadowlands' story, but as intrigued as I am about the story of Shadowlands' zones, the overarching narrative of the expansion is looking pretty meh to me so far.

[Jester Joe]

What's weird to me is that Anduin, Jaina, Baine, and Thrall aren't dead. If Sylvanas was able to capture them, why would she not kill them? It would certainly get them to the Maw much faster, and as a prison of the dead, I don't immediately see what the point is in having them be living prisoners for any amount of time. I have to imagine there's some point to keeping them alive for however long they've been in there, but it's just really confusing. I'm holding off full judgment until we're deeper into Shadowlands' story, but as intrigued as I am about the story of Shadowlands' zones, the overarching narrative of the expansion is looking pretty meh to me so far.

I expect the answer to just be "bait to get more people to come in after them".

Although from the gist of the story, it sounds like The Jailer was toying with Jaina and Thrall for fun almost

[StationaryHawk]

I could see Valeera standing among the Horde, but actually drawing her blades against the Alliance seems completely against her character.

[Kyphael]

I'm happy to see Calia on the Horde side. Better her than Lilian who? It's an interesting dynamic to have a Menethil lead The Forsaken. It's a twist of fate. Even before Wrath ended, I hoped Arthas would be defeated as Lich King but not killed, and go on to lead The Forsaken as King of the Forsaken to redeem himself. This is almost as good.

[Skytotem]

For what purpose though?

It makes little to no sense.

Calia is aligned with the Forsaken now, along with Derek. Jaina knows they left to help others in the same kinda situation as Derek.

But Jaina isn't there. Neither is Anduin who helped rez Calia. So all that's left is Genn out of people who were directly there for Calia's plight. It makes more sense for her to stand near her new allies, especially since her role is to help the Forsaken regain the trust of the Horde after the hole Sylvanas left.

Valeera being in the middle would serve little to no purpose either. She doesn't need to prove her neutrality by randomly standing in the middle alone, and again it makes perfect sense that she would feel like the Horde leaders are in danger of Tyrande trying to attack them.



Pretty sure the player doesn't have control of the Night elf army, which did have forces there. Not sure how you could miss the Ancients walking around fighting.

1. They shouldn't be forsaken, Calia ought to shack up with the Argents, same with Derek. Why on earth would Derek want to go to the people who raised him against his will and then tried to brainwash him into serving as a suicide bomber against his family?

2. WHY would any of the others consider Calia a new ally just because she's some weird kind of lightdead? She's the sister of the guy who massacred Lor'themar's people, at the very least that should be unsettled being around her.

3. She'd be by -Bolvar- the guy who wants to go to Shadowlands and deal with things, rather than fight the other faction. It'd be better thematic arrangement by Blizz.

More importantly Blizz needs to start writing Tyrande better, she would know about Calia from Genn.

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I'm happy to see Calia on the Horde side. Better her than Lilian who? It's an interesting dynamic to have a Menethil lead The Forsaken. It's a twist of fate. Even before Wrath ended, I hoped Arthas would be defeated as Lich King but not killed, and go on to lead The Forsaken as King of the Forsaken to redeem himself. This is almost as good.

1. Lillian at least went through a typical "Forsaken" experience, Calia got rezzed by the light in some bizarre way and has no experience living through what the rest of the Forsaken did. And she's supposed to teach *them*?

It's condescending how bad the storytelling there is.

2. ... That would NEVER have happened man, c'mon, that'd have been a terrible plot.

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I can see them having Calia as the Forsaken leader but never having her be a part of the Horde.

How exactly would that work?

[Jester Joe]

1. They shouldn't be forsaken, Calia ought to shack up with the Argents, same with Derek. Why on earth would Derek want to go to the people who raised him against his will and then tried to brainwash him into serving as a suicide bomber against his family?

2. WHY would any of the others consider Calia a new ally just because she's some weird kind of lightdead? She's the sister of the guy who massacred Lor'themar's people, at the very least that should be unsettled being around her.

3. She'd be by -Bolvar- the guy who wants to go to Shadowlands and deal with things, rather than fight the other faction. It'd be better thematic arrangement by Blizz.

More importantly Blizz needs to start writing Tyrande better, she would know about Calia from Genn.

1. That was Sylvanas. That wasn't the entirety of the Forsaken. And he was literally presented with Night Elves that are suffering in the same way as him that are with the Forsaken (The ones from Teldrassil).

2. This is just as flimsy though as blaming all of the Forsaken for Sylvanas trying to use Derek. Calia had nothing to do with Arthas. Just like a vast majority of the Forsaken were sitting around Orgrimmar homeless now while Sylvanas was off plotting.

3. This is a case of both factions meeting up with Bolvar to find out what's going on. No one would suddenly know what he's plotting?

And for the Tyrande thing, she doesn't forgive anyone aligned with the Horde in general. Which could be pointed out "well, you just said how it's wrong to blame the Forsaken for Sylvanas's actions so why can she blame the Horde for Sylvanas's actions!".

But it's quite a different kind of situation in that case. While they didn't directly mean to burn down Teldrassil, they were marching with her with every intention of pushing the Night elves out of their home, and to fight a war to do so.

That's still a good justification to be mad at the horde.

[Skytotem]

1. That was Sylvanas. That wasn't the entirety of the Forsaken. And he was literally presented with Night Elves that are suffering in the same way as him that are with the Forsaken (The ones from Teldrassil).

2. This is just as flimsy though as blaming all of the Forsaken for Sylvanas trying to use Derek. Calia had nothing to do with Arthas. Just like a vast majority of the Forsaken were sitting around Orgrimmar homeless now while Sylvanas was off plotting.

3. This is a case of both factions meeting up with Bolvar to find out what's going on. No one would suddenly know what he's plotting?

And for the Tyrande thing, she doesn't forgive anyone aligned with the Horde in general. Which could be pointed out "well, you just said how it's wrong to blame the Forsaken for Sylvanas's actions so why can she blame the Horde for Sylvanas's actions!".

But it's quite a different kind of situation in that case. While they didn't directly mean to burn down Teldrassil, they were marching with her with every intention of pushing the Night elves out of their home, and to fight a war to do so.

That's still a good justification to be mad at the horde.

1. Right so the Forsaken who guarded him and helped get his body and did everything Sylv wanted. Also the Undead Night Elf Plot is Bad Writing. If Undead didn't need to be brainwashed by the scourge to attack their loved ones and whatnot, then why did the Scourge bother? Sira and Delaryn's actions aren't just contrived, they're insulting to the playerbase's intelligence.

2. Well my first point wasn't flimsy so there's that. Moreover, People in-universe are not sitting behind computers discussing this dispassionately. They had friends and loved ones killed. Any competent writer would have some baggage attached to that for Lor'themar, moreover Calia has no formal authority over the forsaken, no command over their forces or infrastructure, what is she doing there?

3. Again, Calia shouldn't be aligned with the Horde. More pertinently, Genn was present for the nonsense with Calia in BTS, he'd have mentioned that all to Tyrande, they're friends and major political events would be discussed between Alliance leaders, especially when they heighten tensions with the Horde.

Even if Tyrande is mad at all undead, her wording would be different here with any sensible writer.

[Flurryfang]

Damm... The horde side is kinda sad :/ The alliance have all these good looking characters and the Horde... The horde has random people xD