The Last of Us Part II

[Stormdash]

The average rating being even does not mean the opposite extremes are equal, that's not how averages work. Furthermore, a very low rating is less reliable than a very high rating, because the game is objectively good enough in the vast majority of rating elements to realistically be rated a 0, or a 1, or a 2.

To rate the game a 10 you have to ignore pacing problems and storytelling issues. To rate the game anywhere between 0/1/2 you need to willingly ignore all the things in the game that are objectively at the very least decent/average.

I'm not arguing against my own point at all. My point is the metacritic rating is not an objective representation of how good the game is, and it isn't. The only thing that rating is good at representing is how controversial the game and particularly the story is.

Granted, I may never have looked around too hard, but I don't know that I've ever seen people playing TLOU and intentionally faceplanting Joel after he decides to save Ellie the way they do Abby when she wants to kill her. That may not be the most scientific measure of whether Player POV is all it takes to get someone to come around to the motives of a character, but it's worth noting.

And again a lot of this comes down to structure. Much like TWD has tried and mostly failed to really accomplish a "face turn" for Negan, because of the brutal depravity on display when he was introduced*, structuring TLOU 2 to preordain contempt and hatred for Abby was a mistake. If player after player are reacting to the transition in POV to Abby with disgust and annoyance, you are not a clever writer and the player is not a dumb philistine. What's actually happened is you have failed to even set a predicate for the player to even give a damn who Abby is or what motivates her and just forcing them to sit there while you make the argument for ten hours. And, unsurprisingly, the conversion rate is pretty mild of people who arrive back at the theater thinking "oh, well, yes, I'm okay with this and I'm not a willing participant in this boss fight" instead of just stuck doing it because it's on rails.

By the time you reach the theater at all as a player, you should be confused about what the right thing even is, if you really want to bothsides the cycle of revenge.

[NineSpine]

Granted, I may never have looked around too hard, but I don't know that I've ever seen people playing TLOU and intentionally faceplanting Joel after he decides to save Ellie the way they do Abby when she wants to kill her. That may not be the most scientific measure of whether Player POV is all it takes to get someone to come around to the motives of a character, but it's worth noting.

And again a lot of this comes down to structure. Much like TWD has tried and mostly failed to really accomplish a "face turn" for Negan, because of the brutal depravity on display when he was introduced*, structuring TLOU 2 to preordain contempt and hatred for Abby was a mistake. If player after player are reacting to the transition in POV to Abby with disgust and annoyance, you are not a clever writer and the player is not a dumb philistine. What's actually happened is you have failed to even set a predicate for the player to even give a damn who Abby is or what motivates her and just forcing them to sit there while you make the argument for ten hours. And, unsurprisingly, the conversion rate is pretty mild of people who arrive back at the theater thinking "oh, well, yes, I'm okay with this and I'm not a willing participant in this boss fight" instead of just stuck doing it because it's on rails.

By the time you reach the theater at all as a player, you should be confused about what the right thing even is, if you really want to bothsides the cycle of revenge.

Why they failed to do a face turn for Negan is noteworthy, and that reason is because of the changes from the comics. In the comics, he is driven strongly by a personal moral code that he takes very seriously. This adds depth to the character that is totally missing in the show when he is introduced. He’s just a brutal sadist, to the point that it is confusing why people even follow him.

A similar thing is true of Abbie. Who is Abbie? What do we know about her besides her hatred of Joel for killing her father? Pretty much nothing. She is defined by what she does to Joel, and there aren’t really any layers there to unwrap. She’s an amalgam if some basic facts l, not a three dimensional character.

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It’s also worth noting that the attempt to humanize Abbie doesn’t matter, because we already know that what Ellie is doing is unhealthy and destructive. The writers just clearly don’t trust us to figure that out ourselves.

[Stormdash]

Why they failed to do a face turn for Negan is noteworthy, and that reason is because of the changes from the comics. In the comics, he is driven strongly by a personal moral code that he takes very seriously. This adds depth to the character that is totally missing in the show when he is introduced. He’s just a brutal sadist, to the point that it is confusing why people even follow him.

A similar thing is true of Abbie. Who is Abbie? What do we know about her besides her hatred of Joel for killing her father? Pretty much nothing. She is defined by what she does to Joel, and there aren’t really any layers there to unwrap. She’s an amalgam if some basic facts l, not a three dimensional character.

The asterisk I got to come back to was actually to note that while they failed with Negan, Negan didn't start out as unsympathetically as Abby. Because even amidst said brutal depravity, a VERY charismatic performance coupled with an actual explanation of what he was doing and why he was doing it made it at least understandable.

If you came into TLOU 2 unspoiled at best you could infer what Ellie alludes to later - Joel crossed a lot of people. Some people that would want to settle up with Joel probably have legit beef and others probably don't (I'd count the Fireflies as "don't", but YMMV) and ultimately they don't care to even offer a reason. Nor are you offered any context for why they don't kill Ellie or Tommy at the outset - for all the player knows what really happened is they were interrupted and had to flee. They actually do a less initially sympathetic introduction to Abby and her crew than the Saviors and Negan get.

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It’s also worth noting that the attempt to humanize Abbie doesn’t matter, because we already know that what Ellie is doing is unhealthy and destructive. The writers just clearly don’t trust us to figure that out ourselves.

What's silly is that the entire thing is less sophisticated about the reciprocal nature of revenge than Kill Bill managed to be in one excellently performed line of dialogue by Michael Madsen -

"That woman... deserves her vengeance. And we? We deserve to die. But then again so does she."

[everydaygamer]

Granted, I may never have looked around too hard, but I don't know that I've ever seen people playing TLOU and intentionally faceplanting Joel after he decides to save Ellie the way they do Abby when she wants to kill her. That may not be the most scientific measure of whether Player POV is all it takes to get someone to come around to the motives of a character, but it's worth noting.

And again a lot of this comes down to structure. Much like TWD has tried and mostly failed to really accomplish a "face turn" for Negan, because of the brutal depravity on display when he was introduced*, structuring TLOU 2 to preordain contempt and hatred for Abby was a mistake. If player after player are reacting to the transition in POV to Abby with disgust and annoyance, you are not a clever writer and the player is not a dumb philistine. What's actually happened is you have failed to even set a predicate for the player to even give a damn who Abby is or what motivates her and just forcing them to sit there while you make the argument for ten hours. And, unsurprisingly, the conversion rate is pretty mild of people who arrive back at the theater thinking "oh, well, yes, I'm okay with this and I'm not a willing participant in this boss fight" instead of just stuck doing it because it's on rails.

By the time you reach the theater at all as a player, you should be confused about what the right thing even is, if you really want to bothsides the cycle of revenge.

I wouldn't say it was a mistake, it was a risk. This is a game that challenges players to get over their initial bias and try to understand Abby. For some people it absolutely works, not everyone ends up liking her but they at least end up understanding her enough to care how it's all going to end. Yeah not everyone will like it, you could tell by looking at the story on paper and the devs knew that going in. But I don't think it's fair to call it mistake just because its hard to care about Abby after how she was introduced because that's part of what makes the story so brilliant.

If you are able to keep an open mind and overcome your initial bias the result is something amazing and if you can't it falls flat which sucks but I personally appreciate that Naughty Dog was willing to take that risk instead of doing a safe Hollywood sequel.

[PaladinSum]

The problem is people think the point is to make us care about Abby. The point is to make us understand Abby and the way she sees things. The fact that some people (like myself) end up liking her is just inevitable simply because you play as her. Personally I don't understand why people dislike her other than she kills Joel, which ok sure but I don't really see the point in staying mad over it.

The point of the dog is like everything else, showing a different perspective. Just like how we see how Abby's interactions with the wolves are different from Ellie's so is showing how she interacts with the dogs. Maybe it comes across as manipulative but it's not anymore manipulative than having Ellie kill people while Abbie talks with the people she killed.

Welp, I dislike her because

1. She fails to feel any kind of hesitation for putting someone through the exact same hell she expects sympathy for
2. Had no problem with the idea of murdering a pregnant woman after crying over Mel
3. Fucks Owen, making her pretend feelings for Mel a meme.
4. Is shocked when she turns on her band of murderers, the WLF, they try to kill her

[Stormdash]

I wouldn't say it was a mistake, it was a risk. This is a game that challenges players to get over their initial bias and try to understand Abby. For some people it absolutely works, not everyone ends up liking her but they at least end up understanding her enough to care how it's all going to end. Yeah not everyone will like it, you could tell by looking at the story on paper and the devs knew that going in. But I don't think it's fair to call it mistake just because its hard to care about Abby after how she was introduced because that's part of makes the story so brilliant.

If you are able to keep an open mind and overcome your initial bias the result is something amazing and if you can't it falls flat which sucks but I personally appreciate that Naughty Dog was willing to take that risk instead of doing a safe Hollywood sequel.

I just heard Pewdiepie quip (he's coming up on the last fight as Ellie) "game has a way to make you do things you don't want to do". He's actually onto something - I think a better done game trying to tell this story would be able to make you kinda want to do whatever it is it's asking you to do.

[Kolvarg]

And again a lot of this comes down to structure. Much like TWD has tried and mostly failed to really accomplish a "face turn" for Negan, because of the brutal depravity on display when he was introduced*, structuring TLOU 2 to preordain contempt and hatred for Abby was a mistake. If player after player are reacting to the transition in POV to Abby with disgust and annoyance, you are not a clever writer and the player is not a dumb philistine. What's actually happened is you have failed to even set a predicate for the player to even give a damn who Abby is or what motivates her and just forcing them to sit there while you make the argument for ten hours. And, unsurprisingly, the conversion rate is pretty mild of people who arrive back at the theater thinking "oh, well, yes, I'm okay with this and I'm not a willing participant in this boss fight" instead of just stuck doing it because it's on rails.

I mostly agree. I think probably the biggest flaw is the obsession with non-linear story telling. I guess part of it is Halley Gross joining in as co-writer and narrative lead, given that she was one of the writers on Westworld season 1, but there it made a lot more sense and was much better done imho. While it does work in spacing out the narrative "rewards", in many cases it makes everything feel messy and contrived.

I say mostly because I'm not entirely sure how much better it would really be if we played Abby first. It could potentially actually make Ellie look worse then, and anger the original game's fans even more. But while for me it worked and I got around to understanding and even liking Abby as a character, I can understand how it's not for everyone.

[NineSpine]

I mostly agree. I think probably the biggest flaw is the obsession with non-linear story telling. I guess part of it is Halley Gross joining in as co-writer and narrative lead, given that she was one of the writers on Westworld season 1, but there it made a lot more sense and was much better done imho. While it does work in spacing out the narrative "rewards", in many cases it makes everything feel messy and contrived.

I say mostly because I'm not entirely sure how much better it would really be if we played Abby first. It could potentially actually make Ellie look worse then, and anger the original game's fans even more. But while for me it worked and I got around to understanding and even liking Abby as a character, I can understand how it's not for everyone.

I wasn’t aware of the Westworld connection but this all makes so much sense now. I enjoyed the first season of westworld but it was almost entirely “clever” gimmicks over character driven storytelling. The problem here is the similar focus on being “clever” rather than developing coherent characters

[Stormdash]

I mostly agree. I think probably the biggest flaw is the obsession with non-linear story telling. I guess part of it is Halley Gross joining in as co-writer and narrative lead, given that she was one of the writers on Westworld season 1, but there it made a lot more sense and was much better done imho. While it does work in spacing out the narrative "rewards", in many cases it makes everything feel messy and contrived.

I say mostly because I'm not entirely sure how much better it would really be if we played Abby first. It could potentially actually make Ellie look worse then, and anger the original game's fans even more. But while for me it worked and I got around to understanding and even liking Abby as a character, I can understand how it's not for everyone.

Going non-linear actually makes you have to replay the game - literally or in your mind - to actually pay off possibly it's best emotional beat, and that's just unfortunate. My own personal interpretation of that look Joel gives Ellie before Abby kills him to me conveys him knowing that forgiving him wasn't as hard as Ellie thought it would be. I mean, I get it; in one sense, it's already intuitive Ellie would be pleading for his life because last thing the player knew they were peas in a pod. But I think it hits so much harder when you realize that they were on the road back to each other and were interrupted in the moment. That's what Ellie's feeling, and it's what the player should be feeling at the same time, that "but now we'll never get a chance..." heartbreak on top of the fear and anger.

[NineSpine]

I mostly agree. I think probably the biggest flaw is the obsession with non-linear story telling. I guess part of it is Halley Gross joining in as co-writer and narrative lead, given that she was one of the writers on Westworld season 1, but there it made a lot more sense and was much better done imho. While it does work in spacing out the narrative "rewards", in many cases it makes everything feel messy and contrived.

I say mostly because I'm not entirely sure how much better it would really be if we played Abby first. It could potentially actually make Ellie look worse then, and anger the original game's fans even more. But while for me it worked and I got around to understanding and even liking Abby as a character, I can understand how it's not for everyone.

I think the key problem is that Abbie’s story doesn’t add anything. It’s a retread of the story from the first game without the character depth or payoff... yet it somehow is almost as long as the first game by itself.

[Skorpionss]

I liked Jeremy Jahn's spoiler discussion and would rather have had his version of the game than this dumpsterfire

[everydaygamer]

I liked Jeremy Jahn's spoiler discussion and would rather have had his version of the game than this dumpsterfire

I've yet to see anyone's attempts to "fix" the story not fail at missing the point. People always assume this story is about revenge and if that was what it was only about then yeah ending with Ellie killing Abbie would make sense or having Abby portrayed in a way to make her more likable so it's easier to accept Ellie forgiving her. But it's not just about that, it's also about closure and forgiveness and letting go not because its the easy thing to do but because its what you need to do more than anything else.

[Skorpionss]

I've yet to see anyone's attempts to "fix" the story not fail at missing the point. People always assume this story is about revenge and if that was what it was only about then yeah ending with Ellie killing Abbie would make sense or having Abby portrayed in a way to make her more likable so it's easier to accept Ellie forgiving her. But it's not just about that, it's also about closure and forgiveness and letting go not because its the easy thing to do but because its what you need to do more than anything else.

Cool, then why force you to play as Abby, if not to make her more likeable/empathetic, so you feel bad for wanting revenge(which they failed miserably, seeing how many people are mad they don't get to have their revenge)?

His fix for the story wasn't even about the revenge plot though, it was about the whole story being better left for a 3rd installment.

[Stormdash]

It’s almost like when you live in a post-apocalyptic world you end up being forced to do things you don’t want to... almost like they achieved a more believable narrative than making someone who grew up in that world a paragon of virtue.

I'd love for you to find a single person who comes to video gaming "I hope the experience of spending money and playing this feels like a valid metaphor for actually living in a dystopian hellscape".

[everydaygamer]

Cool, then why force you to play as Abby, if not to make her more likeable/empathetic, so you feel bad for wanting revenge(which they failed miserably, seeing how many people are mad they don't get to have their revenge)?

His fix for the story wasn't even about the revenge plot though, it was about the whole story being better left for a 3rd installment.

The point is for the players to understand both sides while the characters remain oblivious. We know why Ellie is doing all this and we know why Abby is doing what she's doing but they don't know anything about the other. A good example is Ellie thinking that Abby is mad about the cure, she has no idea about Abby's dad, likewise, Abby doesn't get why Ellie is doing all this because she doesn't understand her relationship with Joel.

Because they don't know that's what makes the story so compelling because we know these characters are on a collision course and we want them to do the right thing but we're not even sure what the right thing is because yeah we don't want Ellie to die but it's hard to argue that Abby isn't justified in her anger and it's the same with Ellie. In the end, we are left with characters who have every right to keep doing the wrong thing but still manage to find a way to make a better choice by simply forgiving and moving on despite never fully understand one another.

[PaladinSum]

I've yet to see anyone's attempts to "fix" the story not fail at missing the point. People always assume this story is about revenge and if that was what it was only about then yeah ending with Ellie killing Abbie would make sense or having Abby portrayed in a way to make her more likable so it's easier to accept Ellie forgiving her. But it's not just about that, it's also about closure and forgiveness and letting go not because its the easy thing to do but because its what you need to do more than anything else.

I forgive you, psychopathic murderer.

But not you, bigot sandwich man.

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It’s almost like when you live in a post-apocalyptic world you end up being forced to do things you don’t want to... almost like they achieved a more believable narrative than making someone who grew up in that world a paragon of virtue.

Abby didn't want to Kill Joel and all of Ellie's friends? She looked so happy to do it. :0

[Skorpionss]

The point is for the players to understand both sides while the characters remain oblivious. We know why Ellie is doing all this and we know why Abby is doing what she's doing but they don't know anything about the other. A good example is Ellie thinking that Abby is mad about the cure, she has no idea about Abby's dad, likewise, Abby doesn't get why Ellie is doing all this because she doesn't understand her relationship with Joel.

Because they don't know that's what makes the story so compelling because we know these characters are on a collision course and we want them to do the right thing but we're not even sure what the right thing is because yeah we don't want Ellie to die but it's hard to argue that Abby isn't justified in her anger and it's the same with Ellie. In the end, we are left with characters who have every right to keep doing the wrong thing but still manage to find a way to make a better choice by simply forgiving and moving on despite never fully understand one another.

Well they should've asked themselves if the players will even want to understand both sides, which most obviously don't, we don't give a shit about Abby, her motivations, her story, her character, any of it, because of how the game starts. Which is why I referenced Jeremy's spoiler talk where he presented an alternative 2nd part, and having this game be the 3rd part.

[Stormdash]

You think people don’t want realistic and immersive experiences from games? Really?

Yeah, that's not what I said. You can immerse in characters who live in hellscapes and be emotionally stricken by their stories... and the thing that's happening to you, the real person, in seeking that out or being led to it is actually called "fun".

Contrast what I said - "the experience of buying and playing the game..." When players say things like "I'm being forced to do things I don't want to do" they are talking about the experience of playing itself being one that is not fun.

Joss Whedon has this maxim about giving the audience what they need and not what they want. The Druckmann Addendum of formatting a game that just brutally shoves you into the shoes of a character for which he has earned no sympathy in hope or expectation you'll come around is "give the audience what I need and what I want".

[Maljinwo]

I ended sympathizing more with Abby than Ellie

[everydaygamer]

Well they should've asked themselves if the players will even want to understand both sides, which most obviously don't, we don't give a shit about Abby, her motivations, her story, her character, any of it, because of how the game starts. Which is why I referenced Jeremy's spoiler talk where he presented an alternative 2nd part, and having this game be the 3rd part.

The problem is you're generalizing, you assume that because you don't like it and others didn't like it that most people don't like it but go online and you can find just many people praising it, many people were able to do what you think was impossible. This is not an easy story to take in, not everyone is gonna like it and even those who do like it are not necessarily gonna enjoy it. But for those of us who did get what the story was trying to do, that do appreciate that they did the story that was different rather than the one that was easy, we're gonna remember it as something amazing and hell even for people who don't like it it will probably stick with them because we tend to remember the stories that upset us more than the ones that just made us happy.