Star Wars: John Favreau's Sequel Retcon Rumors [Discussion]

[Triceron]

VII-IX are excellent films. If you don't get it, you don't get it. Dunno what else to tell folks who don't enjoy them.

Let's do Star Wars: Episode 0 and then X-XII, instead.

They can be excellent films even if they get shuffled into the Legends category too. Same happened with New Jedi Order and characters like Mara Jade. People still enjoy them today.

[Orange Joe]

I mean, the nature of cloning was well set in canon decades prior to the OT, in the timeline.

And the idea of a Dark Side Force wielder possessing others is similarly not something RoS came up with.

It really just combined the two; Palpatine's soul possessing a chain of hosts, and, in absence of a prepared victim, a clone backup.

You're free to think all that's silly, but it wasn't invented for RoS. Hell, exactly that kind of possession was a major component of SWTOR's big expansions; Knights of the Fallen Empire and Knights of the Eternal Throne. That may technically be Legends material, but it's still an officially sanctioned example.


If the fleet had gotten off the planet, he'd have won. Those were the stakes that were set. It only fell apart because Rey was already there, and had already sent for help, meaning their remaining allies has a jump start well before Palpatine's declaration to form a fleet, and they had the mapping protocols to get to Exegol successfully. Neither of which Palpatine had any real reason to know.

So his hubris brought him down, again. Happened in RotJ, too, y'know.

If those star destroyers had reached orbital space, it would have been over. That's the trick; they didn't. Palpatine made his play, not realizing he was a step behind and about to lose. That's a mistake, sure, but it's not a plot hole.

Pretty sure he did the same thing in the EU.....

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Palpatine/Legends

At an unknown time prior to his death at the Battle of Endor, Palpatine had found a different way to cheat death by preserving his spirit after the death of his body, by the method of spirit transference. He arranged for a series of clones of himself to be created for his spirit to possess, in the event that he perished.

[Endus]

Pretty sure he did the same thing in the EU.....

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Palpatine/Legends

Right, Sith possessing people and staying alive, particularly Palpatine, was something they came up with decades ago. RoS didn't come up with it, it's one thing they carried forward out of Legends material.

What next, people complaining that a Chiss is an Imperial officer in some new Thrawn movie they hypothetically announced?

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Pretty sure he did the same thing in the EU.....

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Palpatine/Legends

Right, Sith possessing people and staying alive, particularly Palpatine, was something they came up with decades ago. RoS didn't come up with it, it's one thing they carried forward out of Legends material.

What next, people complaining that a Chiss is an Imperial officer in some new Thrawn movie they hypothetically announced?

[qwerty123456]

Right, Sith possessing people and staying alive, particularly Palpatine, was something they came up with decades ago. RoS didn't come up with it, it's one thing they carried forward out of Legends material.

What next, people complaining that a Chiss is an Imperial officer in some new Thrawn movie they hypothetically announced?

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Right, Sith possessing people and staying alive, particularly Palpatine, was something they came up with decades ago. RoS didn't come up with it, it's one thing they carried forward out of Legends material.

What next, people complaining that a Chiss is an Imperial officer in some new Thrawn movie they hypothetically announced?

The main problem with it was that it doesn't make any sense within the new films. Like why the fuck would Palpatine make a Snoke to fuck with the galaxy when he already is nearly finished with his planet killers? Why would he go around stealing kids when he's got millions of followers hidden away with him on his planet? If he needed younger people why not just have your minions bone and raise the kids so they are loyal to you? Hell why not use your cloning power to clone your most loyal followers? Why even bother cloning a Snoke and not just yourself? Why would he make another Deathstar when he already has miniature death star tech on ships? Why would Snoke know about the bond between Rey and Kylo but Palpatine only finds out they are a force dyad in his possessed "real" body?

[Endus]

The main problem with it was that it doesn't make any sense within the new films. Like why the fuck would Palpatine make a Snoke to fuck with the galaxy when he already is nearly finished with his planet killers?

Why did he have a Darth Maul?
Why did he have a Darth Tyranis?
Why did he have a Darth Vader?
Why did he have irons in the fire with each of them, before his prior apprentice got killed, ensuring he could easily induct a new apprentice whenever one was needed?

Palpatine's a manipulator at heart. He's always preferred to let others be the "face", and the "fist", while he controls everything from the shadows. Even in the OT; it's largely Vader talking to the generals, and Palpatine talking to Vader, rather than Palpatine going directly to the generals.

Palpatine also generally tried to pursue multiple plots, in the expectation that some would fail. Usually trying to gear it so that even the failures worked in his favor, somewhat. This is why, for instance, he created the Clone Wars; he was controlling the Republic, while Dooku controlled the Separatists, but Palpatine also controlled Dooku. The entire conflict was a machination so he could gain control. Victory in any particular battle for any given side wasn't a factor, most of the time; Palpatine won either way. If Dooku got crushed, he'd just spin to Anakin, whom he was grooming for that position for years before the opportunity emerged.

Palpatine is always thinking 5 moves ahead and he's usually playing three or four games at a time, if not more.

And in a more specific response; if everyone's focused on Snoke and Kylo and the First Order, nobody's paying attention to the supply ships and troop transports that must've been traveling between Exegol and other planets. Everything about the First Order was a misdirect. It was never expected to be victorious, just to be the obvious threat so nobody noticed the little details that indicated there was something else going on.

Why would he go around stealing kids when he's got millions of followers hidden away with him on his planet? If he needed younger people why not just have your minions bone and raise the kids so they are loyal to you? Hell why not use your cloning power to clone your most loyal followers? Why even bother cloning a Snoke and not just yourself?

See above. Get as many possible paths to victory going as you can, and you "win" if any of them bear fruit. Rather than going all-in on a single master plan.

This is exactly what we saw from Palpatine in the prequels and Clone Wars. Not really in the OT, but we didn't see much at all of him there, really. Didn't even get his name in those films.

Why would he make another Deathstar when he already has miniature death star tech on ships?

You mean Starkiller Base?

1> It's Ilum. Where the Jedi trained younglings and got them to get their saber crystals. Building the base there is a giant "fuck you" to the Jedi, and destroying the base means their heritage is destroyed, so win/win for Palpatine in the end.

2> It's a cool weapon. It's able to shoot through hyperspace, rather than needing to be on-site. However, it's a planet, so it likely wasn't going to last long once it was operational. Since you can't move it, obviously. Like the First Order, Starkiller was always intended to be disposable. A misdirect, and a big middle finger aimed at the Jedi to boot.

Why would Snoke know about the bond between Rey and Kylo but Palpatine only finds out they are a force dyad in his possessed "real" body?

Because Snoke's the one who created that bond.

Is this the first time you've noticed that a Dark Side force user keeps something secret? Because we've seen that from literally every single one.

[qwerty123456]

Why did he have a Darth Maul?
Why did he have a Darth Tyranis?
Why did he have a Darth Vader?
Why did he have irons in the fire with each of them, before his prior apprentice got killed, ensuring he could easily induct a new apprentice whenever one was needed?

Palpatine's a manipulator at heart. He's always preferred to let others be the "face", and the "fist", while he controls everything from the shadows. Even in the OT; it's largely Vader talking to the generals, and Palpatine talking to Vader, rather than Palpatine going directly to the generals.

Palpatine also generally tried to pursue multiple plots, in the expectation that some would fail. Usually trying to gear it so that even the failures worked in his favor, somewhat. This is why, for instance, he created the Clone Wars; he was controlling the Republic, while Dooku controlled the Separatists, but Palpatine also controlled Dooku. The entire conflict was a machination so he could gain control. Victory in any particular battle for any given side wasn't a factor, most of the time; Palpatine won either way. If Dooku got crushed, he'd just spin to Anakin, whom he was grooming for that position for years before the opportunity emerged.

Palpatine is always thinking 5 moves ahead and he's usually playing three or four games at a time, if not more.

And in a more specific response; if everyone's focused on Snoke and Kylo and the First Order, nobody's paying attention to the supply ships and troop transports that must've been traveling between Exegol and other planets. Everything about the First Order was a misdirect. It was never expected to be victorious, just to be the obvious threat so nobody noticed the little details that indicated there was something else going on.



See above. Get as many possible paths to victory going as you can, and you "win" if any of them bear fruit. Rather than going all-in on a single master plan.

This is exactly what we saw from Palpatine in the prequels and Clone Wars. Not really in the OT, but we didn't see much at all of him there, really. Didn't even get his name in those films.



You mean Starkiller Base?

1> It's Ilum. Where the Jedi trained younglings and got them to get their saber crystals. Building the base there is a giant "fuck you" to the Jedi, and destroying the base means their heritage is destroyed, so win/win for Palpatine in the end.

2> It's a cool weapon. It's able to shoot through hyperspace, rather than needing to be on-site. However, it's a planet, so it likely wasn't going to last long once it was operational. Since you can't move it, obviously. Like the First Order, Starkiller was always intended to be disposable. A misdirect, and a big middle finger aimed at the Jedi to boot.



Because Snoke's the one who created that bond.

Is this the first time you've noticed that a Dark Side force user keeps something secret? Because we've seen that from literally every single one.

Have to use a tablet atm so sorry for not splitting stuff up:

As far as I'm aware stuff wasn't moved to Exegol during the first order running around. Last I heard it was shit built there are stuff he sent their before he died.

Yes he is a manipulator and yet didn't have a back up plan for his son and granddaughter running off. Why didn't he have more kids or clone his son/rey??? Why not use the Snoke puppet to take Rey and Kylo's dna to clone em and not announce himself to the world? And why would he be ok with Snoke/himself killing her when he needed her?

The entire galactic government refused to make a military it wasn't until the first order started fucking around that the resistance rose up. Had he not done anything there would have been even fewer people to stop him.

There's one Jedi left. Why wouldn't Snoke have sent Luke on a wild goose chase to Ilum and let him watch as the planet and he dies if he was using it as a giant fuck you to the Jedi? Why would he create a dagger that needs to be used on a very specific point of shore near the deathstar ruins to show a guy who works for him and already knew about Exegol how to find an item to get him to Exegol? Why not just tell him its on floor 2b room 14? And if he is such an amazing manipulator and planner why wouldn't he have sent multiple people to get the most important thing to his plans?

Palpatine was controlling Snoke. Snoke was a completely artificial being who even had his appearance designed by Palpatine. Why wouldn't Palpatine know? And if Snoke/Palpatine can create force dyads why wouldn't he have done it to some half assed clones so he could drain them? And if Snoke had any agency of his own why wouldn't he use it on himself and Kylo to powerboost the fuck out of himself so he could kill palpatine and take over for himself?

[Endus]

Have to use a tablet atm so sorry for not splitting stuff up:

As far as I'm aware stuff wasn't moved to Exegol during the first order running around. Last I heard it was shit built there are stuff he sent their before he died.

Pretty sure this is not actually established anywhere.

Yes he is a manipulator and yet didn't have a back up plan for his son and granddaughter running off. Why didn't he have more kids or clone his son/rey??? Why not use the Snoke puppet to take Rey and Kylo's dna to clone em and not announce himself to the world? And why would he be ok with Snoke/himself killing her when he needed her?

In order;
1> we don't know he didn't.
2> Why bother? And maybe he did, anyway, it's just wasn't ever the best option.
3> Why did he regularly pit Anakin against his apprentice, Dooku, eventually getting Dooku killed? Because Palpatine is a true believer in the Sith way (this'll come up again). The strongest will win, and Palpatine wins either way; either his apprentice gains power by defeating the challenger, or the challenger is the stronger and Palpatine's new apprentice. Strength is paramount to a Sith. Testing it is a constant.

The entire galactic government refused to make a military it wasn't until the first order started fucking around that the resistance rose up. Had he not done anything there would have been even fewer people to stop him.

Again, Palpatine is a true believer, and one who tries to empower the Dark Side, with himself as its champion. This means it isn't about personal power, in the end. It's about spreading fear, and hate, and anger across the Galaxy. The New Republic infighting about whether to respond to the First Order; Palpatine wins. The Resistance forming in opposition; Palpatine wins. The fighting with the First Order, regardless if they win or lose; Palpatine wins.

If you pay close attention, in the final encounter, it's unclear if Palpatine thinks he legitimately could ever control Rey; he may end up one of the many voices of the Dark speaking through her, but subject to her will. But he doesn't care, because that means she's the stronger of the two, and deserves it. Because he's a true believer. A zealot of the Dark Side, in every respect.

There's one Jedi left. Why wouldn't Snoke have sent Luke on a wild goose chase to Ilum and let him watch as the planet and he dies if he was using it as a giant fuck you to the Jedi?

Literally had no idea where he was and Luke certainly wasn't letting himself get baited out.

Why would he create a dagger that needs to be used on a very specific point of shore near the deathstar ruins to show a guy who works for him and already knew about Exegol how to find an item to get him to Exegol? Why not just tell him its on floor 2b room 14?

We don't know that Palpatine created the dagger, do we? I figured it was made by the guy who owned the ship. Precisely because he couldn't memorize the info.

Palpatine was controlling Snoke. Snoke was a completely artificial being who even had his appearance designed by Palpatine. Why wouldn't Palpatine know?

Not actually what they set out. Also, Palpatine doesn't always tell the entire truth, y'know.

And if Snoke/Palpatine can create force dyads why wouldn't he have done it to some half assed clones so he could drain them? And if Snoke had any agency of his own why wouldn't he use it on himself and Kylo to powerboost the fuck out of himself so he could kill palpatine and take over for himself?

Might've been the plan. Then Kylo beat him to it.

[qwerty123456]

Pretty sure this is not actually established anywhere.



In order;
1> we don't know he didn't.
2> Why bother? And maybe he did, anyway, it's just wasn't ever the best option.
3> Why did he regularly pit Anakin against his apprentice, Dooku, eventually getting Dooku killed? Because Palpatine is a true believer in the Sith way (this'll come up again). The strongest will win, and Palpatine wins either way; either his apprentice gains power by defeating the challenger, or the challenger is the stronger and Palpatine's new apprentice. Strength is paramount to a Sith. Testing it is a constant.



Again, Palpatine is a true believer, and one who tries to empower the Dark Side, with himself as its champion. This means it isn't about personal power, in the end. It's about spreading fear, and hate, and anger across the Galaxy. The New Republic infighting about whether to respond to the First Order; Palpatine wins. The Resistance forming in opposition; Palpatine wins. The fighting with the First Order, regardless if they win or lose; Palpatine wins.

If you pay close attention, in the final encounter, it's unclear if Palpatine thinks he legitimately could ever control Rey; he may end up one of the many voices of the Dark speaking through her, but subject to her will. But he doesn't care, because that means she's the stronger of the two, and deserves it. Because he's a true believer. A zealot of the Dark Side, in every respect.



Literally had no idea where he was and Luke certainly wasn't letting himself get baited out.



We don't know that Palpatine created the dagger, do we? I figured it was made by the guy who owned the ship. Precisely because he couldn't memorize the info.



Not actually what they set out. Also, Palpatine doesn't always tell the entire truth, y'know.



Might've been the plan. Then Kylo beat him to it.

"By the era of the Galactic Empire, the last Sith Lords, Darth Sidious and Darth Vader, possessed the only two wayfinders leading the way to Exegol. After Sidious' death at the Battle of Endor, the Sith Eternal cult chose Exegol as their base because it was completely hidden from even the most studious of galactic historians, some of whom knew about Korriban/Moraband and the other Sith worlds.[3]

Battle of Exegol
A battle between the Resistance and the Sith Eternal took place on Exegol.

The Sith loyalists then proceeded to construct a massive fleet of warships. This was comprised of hundreds of Xyston-class Star Destroyers, which were intended for the Sith's reconquest of the galaxy.[3] As threats of their return to the wider galaxy loomed, the Resistance mustered its forces and fought a desperate battle against the Sith.[1] Ultimately, with the help of the citizens' fleet, the Resistance was able to destroy the Sith Star Destroyers and kill Emperor Darth Sidious.[1]"

One of those was on the Death Star. Why on earth would the assassin dude get the wayfinder then place it on the death star, then create a knife that somehow shows him the location on the ruins where its located? How on earth would he have known exactly where he was in the middle of those ruins esp if he had shitty memory? And mind you that he would have had to get the wayfinder after grabbing rey. Why on earth would he leave it in such a dangerous place, what did he plan to do leave Rey locked up on the ship? What if some scavenger stole it while he was trying to get over to the ruins?

Clearly he knew Luke was searching the galaxy idk if he knew what for though. Why not send him fake info to trap him?

Also Snoke was supposed to not be a sith and use a blend of light and dark. If Palpatine really was so obsessed with the sith why on earth would he create a being that goes against the sith teachings especially if he wasn't in complete control of it? How could he trust that Snoke doesn't just put a fuck ton of mines near the only entrance to the planet and take over everything (or end up going more light side) when there was apparently only one other dude(who was a non force user so couldn't do shit if Snoke rebelled) in the First Order that knew Snoke was just a puppet? None of that sounds like a dude that has a million back up plans.


Also if he can easily create multiple powerful snokes and design them why on earth wouldn't he make his own clone better? Why would it look like it was half blown up?

[NihilSustinet]

disney released 3 high-grossing, well-reviewed star was movies. clearly "star wars is over" lol.

[TheramoreIsTheBomb]

VII-IX are excellent films. If you don't get it, you don't get it. Dunno what else to tell folks who don't enjoy them.

Let's do Star Wars: Episode 0 and then X-XII, instead.

they're far from excellent films. compare empire strikes back to infinity war and then compare the last jedi to suicide squad and you'll see the difference in quality

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disney released 3 high-grossing, well-reviewed star was movies. clearly "star wars is over" lol.

The Last Jedi:
ROTTEN 43%
AUDIENCE SCORE
User Ratings: 219,545


ROTTEN 51%
TOMATOMETER
Total Count: 487


The Force Awakens was the only decent movie. The only problem was that Rey was too powerful in one scene than she should have. [Using the force mind trick]. Everything was making sense in the movie. Characters acting themselves. Plot was understandable.

TLJ and ROTS had too many plots going on, characters doing abnormal things, and pushing unnecessary irl agendas to the audience.

[NihilSustinet]

they're far from excellent films. compare empire strikes back to infinity war and then compare the last jedi to suicide squad and you'll see the difference in quality

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The Last Jedi:
ROTTEN 43%
AUDIENCE SCORE
User Ratings: 219,545


ROTTEN 51%
TOMATOMETER
Total Count: 487


The Force Awakens was the only decent movie. The only problem was that Rey was too powerful in one scene than she should have. [Using the force mind trick]. Everything was making sense in the movie. Characters acting themselves. Plot was understandable.

TLJ and ROTS had too many plots going on, characters doing abnormal things, and pushing unnecessary irl agendas to the audience.

i said well REVIEWED. who gives a fuck about audience score? the audience vote with their wallet, the critics vote with their opinions, and all 3 movies were fantastic on both accounts. all 3 were great movies, btw.

[Alteiry]

Anyone who thinks this will happen is delusional. People said the same thing about the prequels and absolutely nothing came of that.

[Triceron]

Infinity War was a GODAWFUL movie. The only people I know who enjoyed that are children and younger millennials. It's ridiculous, laden with cheap CGI, and has a terrible story.

The Last Jedi is very cerebral; casual movie-goers and those who enjoy something cerebral love it. None of the Avengers stuff is good. It's an unfortunate byproduct of a wasteful era.

Hardly would call it cerebral when it was plagued with plot points that went no where, hinged on a threatening premise that was nonsensical, and was filled with wtf moments like super jesus Leia, Rose saving Finn when theres no way she could have gotten to him, and the hyperspace thing that.... Yeah lets not even go there.

If the movie was half the length it was and only focused on the Kylo Rei storyline, then maybe. Otherwise it was a mess of a movie.

[PACOX]

The main problem with it was that it doesn't make any sense within the new films. Like why the fuck would Palpatine make a Snoke to fuck with the galaxy when he already is nearly finished with his planet killers? Why would he go around stealing kids when he's got millions of followers hidden away with him on his planet? If he needed younger people why not just have your minions bone and raise the kids so they are loyal to you? Hell why not use your cloning power to clone your most loyal followers? Why even bother cloning a Snoke and not just yourself? Why would he make another Deathstar when he already has miniature death star tech on ships? Why would Snoke know about the bond between Rey and Kylo but Palpatine only finds out they are a force dyad in his possessed "real" body?

Snokes only purpose was to corrupt Kylo. He groomed Ben Solo via Snoke the say way he twisted Anakin. Remember no one really knew who Snoke was, even within the First Order. Snoke meat bag to be used when he needed.

He didn't have millions of followers. He had purged most of the Empire that wasn't smart enough to bail when he died. The ones who started the First Order we few. Not enough to build an army. So he/they conscripted and a army in the Unknown Regions. Why kids? The same reason why the Jedi only taught kids. You brainwash them while, make it so the only thing they know is the First/Jedi Order. No room for people who had second lives second guessing the order - see Imperials who left the Empire.

Your last point is because JJ sucks at lore.

[MatadorMedia]

While I don't think they're going to remake the sequel trilogy - especially with no evidence that the Lucas version would've been any better - I would love to see some more films starring the OT characters. A film version of Shadows of the Empire or the Dark Empire series would be great. The problem is finding actors to accurately portray the OT characters... and as we know from the Solo trainwreck, Disney isn't great at replacement casting.

[qwerty123456]

Snokes only purpose was to corrupt Kylo. He groomed Ben Solo via Snoke the say way he twisted Anakin. Remember no one really knew who Snoke was, even within the First Order. Snoke meat bag to be used when he needed.

He didn't have millions of followers. He had purged most of the Empire that wasn't smart enough to bail when he died. The ones who started the First Order we few. Not enough to build an army. So he/they conscripted and a army in the Unknown Regions. Why kids? The same reason why the Jedi only taught kids. You brainwash them while, make it so the only thing they know is the First/Jedi Order. No room for people who had second lives second guessing the order - see Imperials who left the Empire.

Your last point is because JJ sucks at lore.

Almost none of the First Order Knew about the Emperor, fleet, planet, etc... The Sith Eternal fleet was made up of a ton of Sith cultists. https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Sith_Eternal_military

The crew of a Xyston-class Star Destroyer was around 30k and they had several hundred of them. Even if they only had 200 of them that would be 6 million people on the Star Destroyers alone. Thats not even counting the cultists in the throne room and elsewhere working on the planet or on other ship types.

Snokes flagship had over 2 million crew members and their Resurgent-class Star Destroyers had like 80k people on them. If the First Order was kidnapping kids for themselves and the Sith Eternal they would have had to kidnap millions if not tens of millions of kids. If that were the case there's no way in hell the galactic government wouldn't have stopped them.

[Triceron]

Look, it's okay if you didn't understand it.

The story it was telling was heavy-handed. I get it was supposed to show a bunch of greys in a universe we expected clean cut good and evil out of, but at the end of the day this should be a Star Wars sequel to The Force Awakens and thats not what it was.

And the inconsistencies to the Star Wars established universe doesn't help it one bit for it.

[PACOX]

Almost none of the First Order Knew about the Emperor, fleet, planet, etc... The Sith Eternal fleet was made up of a ton of Sith cultists. https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Sith_Eternal_military

The crew of a Xyston-class Star Destroyer was around 30k and they had several hundred of them. Even if they only had 200 of them that would be 6 million people on the Star Destroyers alone. Thats not even counting the cultists in the throne room and elsewhere working on the planet or on other ship types.

Snokes flagship had over 2 million crew members and their Resurgent-class Star Destroyers had like 80k people on them. If the First Order was kidnapping kids for themselves and the Sith Eternal they would have had to kidnap millions if not tens of millions of kids. If that were the case there's no way in hell the galactic government wouldn't have stopped them.

Its been awhile since I looked at the visual dictionary but it suggests the Sith cult existed before RotJ and that Palpatine's inner circle were at least away of Sith cultists. The oldest and original memebers of the Emperor by definition, that's why they were part of the group that survived Operation Cinder and went to form the First Order. Only his diehards made the jump. Sloane and Pryde are two people who definitely knew about Palpatine, at least unsurprised. Hux would have known more than most. But honestly, Palpatine never cared to introduce his military arm to his Sith hand apart from a very select few. You and look at ever apprentice he had. Maul deduced Palps plan but wasn't exactly briefed on it. Dooku didn't know much of anything. It took a while before Palpatine made Vader a Sith and an officially recognized part of the Empire. So it would make since if Palp maintained a veil between the Sith Cult and the First Order. Harder to recruit military leaders when they immediately know they are going to play second to Palps thousand-year-old religion.

Also, the First Order was notoriously undermanned. Their tech and tactics reflected that. Their ships were relatively unmanned/automated. The crew that do have is known to be relatively young. Kids essentially. Remember we're talking forces that span entire sectors of a galaxy commanding ships bigger than real-world countries- million is a small number. The First Order's fleet was small. That's why it wasn't seen as a threat by the New Republic, who didn't know how technically advanced it was.

We can't discount that the First Order was allowed a entire generation (plus some because Palp planted foothold in the Unknown Regions before the end of RotK) to do nothing but conscript and breed an invasion force built upon the collective wisdom of a Sith and die hard warlords.

All in all it didn't really matter if the random stormtrooper, Finn, knew about the grand scheme of things. Those at the top knew, everyone else just followed orders. They knew nothing else because they were raised within the First Order. The First Order solved its numbers problem through propaganda, Starkiller, and defeating the Resistance. Everything would have worked if Palpatine accounted for the Skywalkers and their BS (from Palps PoV). Absolutely nothing could stop Palp but the Skywalkers, which is what happened.

((Sorry if this is jumbled)).

[segara82]

disney released 3 high-grossing, well-reviewed star was movies. clearly "star wars is over" lol.

The first one, yes.
The second one created this circle of vitriol that killed the merch sale.
The third one barely broke even and has not rekindled the merch sale.

After 8 Years and 5 movies (don't forget B.O.B. Solo and Rogue One) Disney recouperated about 25% of the invested 4 Billion dollars.
The fans are divided, the merch is not selling, several higher-ups are arguing and insulting (potential) customers ...
It is a shitshow.

Meanwhile Disneys other 4 Billion $ investment called Marvel has 10 years, 21 movies, is adored by fans large and wide and has not only brought back the original investment but a hefty profit as well.

The shareholders and higher-ups at Disney are of course comparing these two world-famous IPs and their performances. Star Wars clearly loses.
Out of a strictly economic PoV a reset that gave them the chance to remove the vitriol and regain those lost millions customers and their billions of dollars IS a valid option.
Repeat: option.

[PACOX]

The first one, yes.
The second one created this circle of vitriol that killed the merch sale.
The third one barely broke even and has not rekindled the merch sale.

After 8 Years and 5 movies (don't forget B.O.B. Solo and Rogue One) Disney recouperated about 25% of the invested 4 Billion dollars.
The fans are divided, the merch is not selling, several higher-ups are arguing and insulting (potential) customers ...
It is a shitshow.

Meanwhile Disneys other 4 Billion $ investment called Marvel has 10 years, 21 movies, is adored by fans large and wide and has not only brought back the original investment but a hefty profit as well.

The shareholders and higher-ups at Disney are of course comparing these two world-famous IPs and their performances. Star Wars clearly loses.
Out of a strictly economic PoV a reset that gave them the chance to remove the vitriol and regain those lost millions customers and their billions of dollars IS a valid option.
Repeat: option.

If you want to analyze TLJ, it's polarizing but not technically a failure. What you have are a lot of strong opinions for and against it that cancel each other out.

Hate to say it, TLJ is the strongest movie of the trilogy. TFA is just a remake and TROS is loathed among those who both loved and hated TLJ.

It sold merch. It made money. It got people talking about SW.

Shareholders view TROS (and unfortunately Solo) as the failures of the Disney movies, not anything before and including TLJ.

Meanwhile the shows practically sold Disney+ for Disney (we ignore Resistance). The comics did as well as comics can do in a down market for comics. They made 3 major games, 2 sold well enough with one being extremely praised.

They dedicated an entire park to one franchise.

I don't think Disney is exactly worried about SW making them money.

There current SW is completely based in print material. That's how much faith they have in the franchise - they are pushing the IP in a medium that does not make much money because they know it will still be a cash cow.

Marvel is a much bigger and more established market than SW. Prior to Disney, SW was a niche and fading market for nostalgic toy collectors and people who still messed with the books. Meanwhile Spider-man is one of the most recognized characters in the world. Most of Marvel's iconic characters, see the Avengers, are much old than a Skywalker. You have a universe with hundreds of stories that can be retold versus one that was gatekept by one man and last major stint in pop culture didn't go so well. Of course Marvel is an easier sell for them. Nothing about the MCU is original. Meanwhile Disney has put in a lot of time and effort (outside of the ST) to define the SW universe.