Another "I can't breath" death: Police Reform & Protests in the USA

[Themius]

Ah, but this is kind of the point of impasse for me. If you told me that Mississippi has held onto their flag and its racist roots for too long and should be changed, I would say "I agree." But.. then what? I don't live in Mississippi. I don't know anyone there who i can convince. I could advocate, but while I am an advocate they tend to be in my own state with its own problems, in relation to education and healthcare, and by donating both my time and money to services in my community.. I don't have the energy or resources to fight other battles.

Yet, the book claims that I am white, and as part of my racial group I am associated with racists in Mississippi. That my claims to be individual of their actions, and in the resolution to address them, is an example of white fragility and a facetious attempt to establish an unracialized identity.

So tell me. The problem exists. I acknowledge it exists and it is a sign of systemic racism. It looks like they finally agreed to change it a few hours ago, so this is now theoretical, but lets turn the clock back half a day. What exactly do you expect me to do about it?

Are you sure you're not simply taking this entirely the wrong way. Perhaps the book is saying for minorities in your country a similar problem is being aced by them, and a similar situtation where a white majority is like "meh". Not that white person 5000 miles away is responsible for something somewhere else.

Often these books tend to be written with a specific country or region in mind.

[Kasierith]

Are you sure you're not simply taking this entirely the wrong way. Perhaps the book is saying for minorities in your country a similar problem is being aced by them, and a similar situtation where a white majority is like "meh". Not that white person 5000 miles away is responsible for something somewhere else.

Often these books tend to be written with a specific country or region in mind.

At the same time that whites are taught to see their interests and perspectives as universal, they are also taught to value the individual and to see themselves as individuals rather than as part of a racially socialized group. Individualism erases history and hides the ways in which wealth has been distributed and accumulated over generations to benefit whites today. It allows whites to view themselves as unique and original, outside of socialization and unaffected by the relentless racial messages in the culture. Individualism also allows whites to distance themselves from the actions of their racial group and demand to be granted the benefit of the doubt, as individuals, in all cases. A corollary to this unracialized identity is the ability to recognize Whiteness as something that is significant and that operates in society, but to not see how it relates to one’s own life. In this form, a white person recognizes Whiteness as real, but as the individual problem of other “bad” white people

I feel pretty safe that she's making this argument with the United States as a country specifically in mind, and with the entire Western world in general. And is addressing American whites with the same stroke. Keeping in mind that American whites includes everything from your typical English and German types, to central Asian descendants like myself, to explicitly Italian immigrants who came here well into the 20th century. All are presented as part of the same group, with the exact same history mentality and social biases in her eyes.

[Egomaniac]

Police: 2 women hit by car on Seattle highway amid protest

Seattle is such a shithole. Something in the water there?

Assholes driving into protesters is not exactly a situation that is unique to Seattle.

[Theodarzna]

I feel pretty safe that she's making this argument with the United States as a country specifically in mind, and with the entire Western world in general. And is addressing American whites with the same stroke. Keeping in mind that American whites includes everything from your typical English and German types, to central Asian descendants like myself, to explicitly Italian immigrants who came here well into the 20th century. All are presented as part of the same group.

DiAngelo isn't meant to be read too critically, you are supposed to feel bad, feel sad, give her money, after a boring HR Department struggle session; not even the cool sexy Maoist kind but the kind run by some 30 years old with too much stationery and #GirlBoss on her Instagram posts can find microaggressions to list in a file and make sure you know that you are even more perilously close to being fired so don't make too many enemies. After enough sessions and money sunk into this, you too can be OT VIII in Anti-Racism. Heck, I am shocked DiAngelo doesn't turn it into a Multi-Level-Marketing scam.

[Elegiac]

DiAngelo isn't meant to be read too critically, you are supposed to feel bad, feel sad, give her money, after a boring HR Department struggle session; not even the cool sexy Maoist kind but the kind run by some 30 years old with too much stationery and #GirlBoss on her Instagram posts can find microaggressions to list in a file and make sure you know that you are even more perilously close to being fired so don't make too many enemies. After enough sessions and money sunk into this, you too can be OT VIII in Anti-Racism. Heck, I am shocked DiAngelo doesn't turn it into a Multi-Level-Marketing scam.

Man, imagine thinking you're making some sort of counterpoint against an essay entitled White Fragility by getting viscerally tilted at someone suggesting that systemic racism is a bad thing that will require systemic solutions.

Like I said, it's the same sort of quackery that climate change deniers like to toss out every time Greta Thunberg is mentioned.

[Themius]

I feel pretty safe that she's making this argument with the United States as a country specifically in mind, and with the entire Western world in general. And is addressing American whites with the same stroke. Keeping in mind that American whites includes everything from your typical English and German types, to central Asian descendants like myself, to explicitly Italian immigrants who came here well into the 20th century. All are presented as part of the same group, with the exact same history mentality and social biases in her eyes.

Italians who came here well in the 20th century take part in the culture that perpetuates the issues. It doesn't matter they got here in the 20th century when in the 21st century there are race issues among the group that allows them to be ignorant of issues thanks to their whiteness.

In America whites see other whites as one group often enough.

Consider how Irish people were treated and abused, until they integrated... they're just white people like any other white person and eventually all that targeting more or less disappeared they didn't suffer what people who didn't look white had to, because they were white themselves.

[Kasierith]

Italians who came here well in the 20th century take part in the culture that perpetuates the issues. It doesn't matter they got here in the 20th century when in the 21st century there are race issues among the group that allows them to be ignorant of issues thanks to their whiteness.

In America whites see other whites as one group often enough.

Consider how Irish people were treated and abused, until they integrated... they're just white people like any other white person and eventually all that targeting more or less disappeared they didn't suffer what people who didn't look white had to, because they were white themselves.

You'll find that this really isn't the case. When you get into these supposedly coveted areas where there are only white people, they still find plenty of ways to divide themselves. And those little pockets in places like the boonies are some of the most poisonous communities I have ever come across.

Hell, where I'm from it was facial features and hair color that set me apart.

But that's not exactly the same argument as presented there. A large component of White Fragility is an assault on individuality. An argument that you are not defined by your individual actions, choices, thoughts, and beliefs, but by those of your racial caste as bolded above. Yes, Italian immigrants benefit from certain social structures that benefit anyone perceived to be white. But the idea that they think the exact same way, hold the same beliefs, have the same historical benefits that put them at an advantageous start point simply doesn't follow. The life experiences and beliefs of a second generation Italian Catholic immigrant living in New York are going to be utterly and absolutely different from the life experiences and beliefs of an English slave owner descendant with Southern Baptist beliefs living in Mississippi. And still more different from a mixed heritage college student in California. And from a Central Asian descended Russian raised first generation immigrant living in the midwest.

The issue with the assault on individuality isn't that all four of these individuals benefit in specific areas. It's the argument, presented in the book, that they all come with the same worldview and precepts. That it is their whiteness that defines them.

[Dacien]

People can only ask for forgiveness or attempt to atone for the sins of their own hands. A person cannot be blamed for something they didn't do, or because they match the description of people who did do something bad, or because they grew up in a certain area that didn't teach things that are important to other people elsewhere, or any of those sorts of things. If the argument is that some white people don't appreciate that some things can be racist, which some seem to argue in this thread, then we can have a discussion about that with them. But my guess is you'd be hard pressed to find a white person in America in 2020 who doesn't have at least passing knowledge of racial tensions. These tensions have boiled over and are front and center.

I had spoken with someone online about the issue of systemic racism some months ago, and the basic synopsis of their position was, "Because of your white fragility you cannot accept the racism that you have. But don't worry, it's okay to do better." And I remember thinking that if they were trying to craft a message to be as provocative as possible, they could not have done a better job. I could easily, easily see someone of a less patient temperament becoming combative and angry, and it wouldn't be an unreasonable reaction. They'd be forgiven for thinking this was an adversarial conversation, not one designed to bring in allies to combat racism.

Because the truth of the matter is people are already on board. They've been on board. That's why we've progressed so far since the Civil Rights movement. We've moved ever forward, embraced black art and culture, embraced confirming them to the highest court in the land, embraced them as President of the United States, and so forth. There's still work to be done, but we've made such incredible strides in the last 60 to 70 years, and it's only getting better.

I'm grateful that awareness has been raised about the plight of black Americans, and about the fact that police tactics need to change in many ways. I just wish we could have done it without burning communities to the ground and killing people. Some of these communities were predominantly black and minority. It's just a very sad time in America and I pray that we'll come out of this more unified and stronger. And no, I don't think "white fragility" is going to help us do that.

[Endus]

You'll find that this really isn't the case.

I have literally had an American tourist walk up to me when I was working at the front entrance to a historic site, and say "I see you've got a problem with the n-words up here too, huh?" while nodding at some of my co-workers. Except he didn't use the euphemism, he used the slur.

He presumed I'd fucking agree with him, solely on the basis that I'm visibly white, like him. That's it. It was how he opened conversation with me, not even something that came up after we'd been chatting. He just thought "hey, he's white, he must hate black people as much as I do".

So you'll excuse me if I don't agree with that position at all.

[Kasierith]

I have literally had an American tourist walk up to me when I was working at the front entrance to a historic site, and say "I see you've got a problem with the n-words up here too, huh?" while nodding at some of my co-workers. Except he didn't use the euphemism, he used the slur.

He presumed I'd fucking agree with him, solely on the basis that I'm visibly white, like him. That's it. It was how he opened conversation with me, not even something that came up after we'd been chatting. He just thought "hey, he's white, he must hate black people as much as I do".

So you'll excuse me if I don't agree with that position at all.

This is.. kind of the problem as bolded above in the quote. No one is here is denying that racists exist, and that racists define the world as us vs them. My contention is more that white people in general see other white people as the same as them, when there are a plethora of divisions within society that exist. You'll have a hard time convincing me that we'll see racial comradery if a white hobo walks into the old parts of Beverly Hills.

Though I guess the word often has enough ambiguity to it that I'll step back from that one.

[Elegiac]

People can only ask for forgiveness or attempt to atone for the sins of their own hands. A person cannot be blamed for something they didn't do, or because they match the description of people who did do something bad, or because they grew up in a certain area that didn't teach things that are important to other people elsewhere, or any of those sorts of things. If the argument is that some white people don't appreciate that some things can be racist, which some seem to argue in this thread, then we can have a discussion about that with them. But my guess is you'd be hard pressed to find a white person in America in 2020 who doesn't have at least passing knowledge of racial tensions. These tensions have boiled over and are front and center.

I had spoken with someone online about the issue of systemic racism some months ago, and the basic synopsis of their position was, "Because of your white fragility you cannot accept the racism that you have. But don't worry, it's okay to do better." And I remember thinking that if they were trying to craft a message to be as provocative as possible, they could not have done a better job. I could easily, easily see someone of a less patient temperament becoming combative and angry, and it wouldn't be an unreasonable reaction. They'd be forgiven for thinking this was an adversarial conversation, not one designed to bring in allies to combat racism.

Because the truth of the matter is people are already on board. They've been on board. That's why we've progressed so far since the Civil Rights movement. We've moved ever forward, embraced black art and culture, embraced confirming them to the highest court in the land, embraced them as President of the United States, and so forth. There's still work to be done, but we've made such incredible strides in the last 60 to 70 years, and it's only getting better.

I'm grateful that awareness has been raised about the plight of black Americans, and about the fact that police tactics need to change in many ways. I just wish we could have done it without burning communities to the ground and killing people. Some of these communities were predominantly black and minority. It's just a very sad time in America and I pray that we'll come out of this more unified and stronger. And no, I don't think "white fragility" is going to help us do that.

Let's boil this down, shall we.

#1 - "I cannot be complicit in a system of racism because I reject the notion of communal culpability". Ignoring how amusing it is coming from a supposed patriot (which is literally taking pride in events and things you have no direct hand in), this is what I've mentioned earlier as being the "Crash" Fallacy - putting racism down to a few bad actors rather than a system of oppression and erasure. It's false, and something DiAngelo and many others have pointed out as, ironically enough, a common symptom of White Fragility.

#2 "I don't disagree with the content of your message, but I find the medium personally uncomfortable." - Pretty textbook, but it also ties in to the broader trend of the right wing trying to poison discussion by decontextualizing academic terms and turning them into buzzwords to weaponise. See: intersectionality, male gaze, toxic masculinity, cultural appropriation, et cetera. These terms just describe phenomena, but rather than actually acknowledge them in good faith (which would undermine the entire premise of their political beliefs), they have to allege that they are 'agenda driven' as part of the broader culture war. For those playing at home, check off Number 7 on your Ur Fascism Bingo Card: "Obsession with a Plot" and the hyping-up of an enemy threat.

#3 "People should be happy with what they've already been given, even though I acknowledge that there is still a disparity and actively support policies that maintain it." - No, Dacien, they shouldn't. You people revolted against the British for far less severe oppression. Happy All Countries Matter Day, by the way. (Also let's just point out the irony in a white person saying that "we've made such incredible strides" when the overwhelming majority of Black people are saying the exact opposite.)

Y'all haven't seemed to realise that systemic racism is a legacy of colonialism that is going to require something on the scale of denazification to even remotely address, yet.

[Dacien]

Let's boil this down, shall we.

#1 - "I cannot be complicit in a system of racism because I reject the notion of communal culpability". Ignoring how amusing it is coming from a supposed patriot (which is literally taking pride in events and things you have no direct hand in), this is what I've mentioned earlier as being the "Crash" Fallacy - putting racism down to a few bad actors rather than a system of oppression and erasure. It's false, and something DiAngelo and many others have pointed out as, ironically enough, a common symptom of White Fragility.

If you're asking me if one can be guilty communally, I reject that wholly. That is a hill I will die on. You could argue guilt by refusing to stand up, by not speaking up for justice or righteousness in the face of wickedness. But guilt simply by being part of a group is as outrageous of a statement as I could possibly think up.

[Elegiac]

If you're asking me if one can be guilty communally, I reject that wholly. That is a hill I will die on.

I'm not asking you, because it's not a function of belief. Facts don't care about your feelings.

The very fact that "The United States" is even able to be a representative party in a legal case disproves that nonsense right off the bat. To say nothing of the species of public nuisance that is corporate personhood.

[Theodarzna]

If you're asking me if one can be guilty communally, I reject that wholly. That is a hill I will die on. You could argue guilt by refusing to stand up, by not speaking up for justice or righteousness in the face of wickedness. But guilt simply by being part of a group is as outrageous of a statement as I could possibly think up.

That is the magic of DiAngelo, rejecting her books premises means you need it even more, how conveniant. For just 25,000k you can get to OT V: A new Anti-racism for OT's

[Dacien]

That is the magic of DiAngelo, rejecting her books premises means you need it even more, how conveniant. For just 25,000k you can get to OT V: A new Anti-racism for OT's

It reminds me of some of the provocative statements that are made, and when one predictably bristles, that reaction to the provocation is justification for the provocation.

[Elegiac]

That is the magic of DiAngelo, rejecting her books premises means you need it even more, how conveniant. For just 25,000k you can get to OT V: A new Anti-racism for OT's

You're right, let's pivot away from the more HR centric world of DiAngelo and get down to brass tacks.

[Endus]

If you're asking me if one can be guilty communally, I reject that wholly. That is a hill I will die on. You could argue guilt by refusing to stand up, by not speaking up for justice or righteousness in the face of wickedness. But guilt simply by being part of a group is as outrageous of a statement as I could possibly think up.

It isn't about guilt for the actions of others.

It's about recognition of your own part in supporting a systemically discriminatory paradigm.

If you're not actively working to reform or remedy that injustice, you're part of the system that creates and supports it. You're being made to take responsibility for that.

Or are you seriously arguing that you are an island and have no part in society whatsoever?

[Elegiac]

It reminds me of some of the provocative statements that are made, and when one predictably bristles, that reaction to the provocation is justification for the provocation.

Fortunately for you, Jane Elliot goes into why statements like "all white people are racist" are generally true, at least in majority Anglophone countries.

It's not human nature, it's just the legacy of the British Empire being run by a bunch of racists.

[Theodarzna]

It reminds me of some of the provocative statements that are made, and when one predictably bristles, that reaction to the provocation is justification for the provocation.

Well, I maintain the book easily paints a portrait of Robin DiAngelo as possibly having no friends and not having the ability to comprehend human interpersonal interaction or friendship without the mediation of some institution or officialdom.

[Dacien]

It isn't about guilt for the actions of others.

It's about recognition of your own part in supporting a systemically discriminatory paradigm.

If you're not actively working to reform or remedy that injustice, you're part of the system that creates and supports it. You're being made to take responsibility for that.

Or are you seriously arguing that you are an island and have no part in society whatsoever?

I donated money at the time because that's all I had. I'm not currently living where there are any candidates up for election supporting racial justice that I could weigh voting for. I stand with and support members of the black community. At the end of the day I still have to go to work to pay my mortgage.

And honestly, I think this is the best place to be: Treat everyone with dignity and respect, including black men and women. Support them, and confront racist sentiments from anyone you hear it from (which I had to do on one occasion). I think if people are doing these things they're doing all that can reasonably be asked of them. If one is in a position of great power perhaps they could do more, but the vast majority of us are not in positions of great power.