Star Wars: John Favreau's Sequel Retcon Rumors [Discussion]

[segara82]

If you want to analyze TLJ, it's polarizing but not technically a failure. What you have are a lot of strong opinions for and against it that cancel each other out.
While the movie did do well enough with tickets sold it did destroy the merch sales even more than AotC. Remember that SW lives mostly from the merch sales. And those tanked.

Hate to say it, TLJ is the strongest movie of the trilogy. TFA is just a remake and TROS is loathed among those who both loved and hated TLJ.

It sold merch. It made money. It got people talking about SW.
No.Yes.Yes.

Shareholders view TROS (and unfortunately Solo) as the failures of the Disney movies, not anything before and including TLJ.

Meanwhile the shows practically sold Disney+ for Disney (we ignore Resistance). The comics did as well as comics can do in a down market for comics. They made 3 major games, 2 sold well enough with one being extremely praised.

They dedicated an entire park to one franchise.
That does not sell well enough. They only made some money by jacking up the prices, but attendance-numbers were flat or down before Covid19.

I don't think Disney is exactly worried about SW making them money.
The drama that seeps out indicats otherwise. I am not talking about the fans arguing on the internet, i refer you to Kennedy more or less getting kicked off the set of The Mandalorian.

There current SW is completely based in print material. That's how much faith they have in the franchise - they are pushing the IP in a medium that does not make much money because they know it will still be a cash cow.
That is actually not a good sign business wise. While they do need to keep printing to show us customers that SW ist still alive, putting such an important IP on basically life-support by using the least-important medium says otherwise. Even you can't claim that the comic book industry is as big and as important than it once was. Cinema, TV and games have decimated it before Covid did its thing. It's the MCU that brings in the big bucks, not the comics. The same way of thinking applies to SW and those movies failed in comparison.

Marvel is a much bigger and more established market than SW. Prior to Disney, SW was a niche and fading market for nostalgic toy collectors and people who still messed with the books. Meanwhile Spider-man is one of the most recognized characters in the world. Most of Marvel's iconic characters, see the Avengers, are much old than a Skywalker. You have a universe with hundreds of stories that can be retold versus one that was gatekept by one man and last major stint in pop culture didn't go so well. Of course Marvel is an easier sell for them. Nothing about the MCU is original. Meanwhile Disney has put in a lot of time and effort (outside of the ST) to define the SW universe.
No. Prior to the Marvel Cinematic Universe Star Wars was the bigger IP of them. Computer games, comics, and books that dwarfed everything Marvel was until then, and that was barely a decade ago. I am not talking about the qualities of the stories (both sides have good and bad ones) but the size of the whole.
Yes, Spiderman is amongst the widest known superheroes (with Superman and Batman), but not the Marvel brand itself.

In cursive my comments to your post. I don't do quote-splitting.
Remember, nowadays it is not enough to be just profitable or well-known, you need to be making ever bigger amounts of money. SWs numbers have declined after TFAs strong opening.

[Krastyn]

i said well REVIEWED. who gives a fuck about audience score? the audience vote with their wallet, the critics vote with their opinions, and all 3 movies were fantastic on both accounts. all 3 were great movies, btw.

The Rise of Skywalker has 51% critic score on Rotten Tomatoes, and a 53% critic score on Metacritic. It was not well reviewed.

[PACOX]

In cursive my comments to your post. I don't do quote-splitting.
Remember, nowadays it is not enough to be just profitable or well-known, you need to be making ever bigger amounts of money. SWs numbers have declined after TFAs strong opening.

Disney is the one making all the big openings. TFA and TLJ are one the list. Looked it up, TROS is actually on the list too. So is Rogue One.

I don't know the story about 'Kennedy being kicked off the Mandolorian set' but it seems exacted to me considering she is the head of Lucasfilm. How do you kick your boss off a set? Espcially someone who is highly acclaimed at Lucass, let alone the industry. No one is just kicking Kennedy off a set.

There was no real future for Star Wars when Disney bought it. Lucas wasn't going to make another movie no matter what rumors were going around. The prequels were considered dudes besides people seeing Palp and Vader in ROTS. The EU was a mess that appealled to only to the most diehards of diehards. Star Wars has always been a merch seller above all things, no one was buying SW merch except like I said, the diehards of the diehards. The biggest thing SW had going for it was Clone Wars, which Disney salvaged with its investment. Marvel was a hotter commodity at the time. If anything Marvel was DC were competing in the cartoon and video game space. A lot of people had considered SW dead since ROTJ. Are we forgetting that the prequels weren't well received at all? It didnt even have to split polarized opinions that TLJ had.

Disney moving forward with High Republic means that they confident inability to produce new SW material that will sell. We're not talking a completely new era when they had to option to milk more out of the OT or retell EU stories. I'm more familiar with the comics than the traditional books but they we confident enough to move the comic book talent to High Republic instead of pump out more Vader stories are known sellers - that says something.

Theres just too much SW outside of the three trilogy movies to get too hung up on them. Its not even fair to compare SW to the MCU, which crapped out movies ever couple of months verus a franchise that put out 1 main line movie ever other year plus two minor ones.

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The Rise of Skywalker has 51% critic score on Rotten Tomatoes, and a 53% critic score on Metacritic. It was not well reviewed.

TROS is the worst movie of the trilogy from even a technical standpoint. There's structural problems with it before you even get to its narrative. I know people who who don't agree with me but at least TLJ flowed like a normal movie. Casino planet be damned, TLJ still had its score and visuals going for it. You might not like the direction it went as a sequel but it felt like a sequel.

TFA -> TLJ. New Republic forces were blown up and small Resistance for is on the run. Gets wiped out by a better-equipped force made for invasion. Makes sense.

TLJ -> TROS. Small Resistance force suddenly has enough people to stand up against occupying force just months after the previous movie? WTF? Supreme Leader Kylo is taking jobs that not even Vader would've taken when Sidious was punishing/humbling Vader? First 40 min of the movie plays like a 1st year student with ADD who refuses to acknowledge their short attention span. TROS is a fundamental mess.

[Jotaux]

TLJ definitely lost money. Star Wars movies almost always do, it’s the merch sales where they take it in. That did not happen with TLJ, it being the worst movie ever made.

[segara82]

Disney is the one making all the big openings. TFA and TLJ are one the list. Looked it up, TROS is actually on the list too. So is Rogue One.

I don't know the story about 'Kennedy being kicked off the Mandolorian set' but it seems exacted to me considering she is the head of Lucasfilm. How do you kick your boss off a set? Espcially someone who is highly acclaimed at Lucass, let alone the industry. No one is just kicking Kennedy off a set.

There was no real future for Star Wars when Disney bought it. Lucas wasn't going to make another movie no matter what rumors were going around. The prequels were considered dudes besides people seeing Palp and Vader in ROTS. The EU was a mess that appealled to only to the most diehards of diehards. Star Wars has always been a merch seller above all things, no one was buying SW merch except like I said, the diehards of the diehards. The biggest thing SW had going for it was Clone Wars, which Disney salvaged with its investment. Marvel was a hotter commodity at the time. If anything Marvel was DC were competing in the cartoon and video game space. A lot of people had considered SW dead since ROTJ. Are we forgetting that the prequels weren't well received at all? It didnt even have to split polarized opinions that TLJ had.

Disney moving forward with High Republic means that they confident inability to produce new SW material that will sell. We're not talking a completely new era when they had to option to milk more out of the OT or retell EU stories. I'm more familiar with the comics than the traditional books but they we confident enough to move the comic book talent to High Republic instead of pump out more Vader stories are known sellers - that says something.

Theres just too much SW outside of the three trilogy movies to get too hung up on them. Its not even fair to compare SW to the MCU, which crapped out movies ever couple of months verus a franchise that put out 1 main line movie ever other year plus two minor ones.

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TROS is the worst movie of the trilogy from even a technical standpoint. There's structural problems with it before you even get to its narrative. I know people who who don't agree with me but at least TLJ flowed like a normal movie. Casino planet be damned, TLJ still had its score and visuals going for it. You might not like the direction it went as a sequel but it felt like a sequel.

TFA -> TLJ. New Republic forces were blown up and small Resistance for is on the run. Gets wiped out by a better-equipped force made for invasion. Makes sense.

TLJ -> TROS. Small Resistance force suddenly has enough people to stand up against occupying force just months after the previous movie? WTF? Supreme Leader Kylo is taking jobs that not even Vader would've taken when Sidious was punishing/humbling Vader? First 40 min of the movie plays like a 1st year student with ADD who refuses to acknowledge their short attention span. TROS is a fundamental mess.

Well, i am a bit lazy and will simply copy the things i wrote you back in the Obi-Wan Kenobi Thread:
1.
Great, now let's take the gross and turn it into the net, the REALLY important part.
Total domestic for all movies: 2.806.247.432 *0,6 = 1.683.748.459,20 $
Total foreign for all movies: 3.092.357.313 *0,4 = 1.236.942.925,20 $
totals to: 2.920.691.384,40 $

Congratulation, your IP, which you bought for 4 billion dollars, has after 8 years and 5 movies, not recovered the initial investment.
Oh, they managed to cover the cost of most movies (Solo officially bombed and Rise has so far maybe broken even), but as a shareholder i would start asking the important question when these 4 billions will be regained. In another 16-24 years?

2.
The merch so far has abysmal sale rates, and the 'old' merch has the disadvantage (for Disney) that they have to give George Lucas his share.
The latest financial report considering SW Galaxy Edge shows that it is failing to meet expectations. Sure, revenue is up because ticket prices are up, but attendance numbers are stale or falling. But don't take my word, Disney said so themselves in their own report.


Every company compares the profits with the investment. Especially a big one like Disney.
From a purely financial point of view SW has been a bad investment. It has after 8 years and several big projects a maybe 25% ROI-rate. That's about 3% ROI per year.
For the proud sum of 4 billion dollars Disney could have instead made more money by buying other IPs, or creating their own, new IPs.
Look at Frozen, 2 movies, lots of sold merch, no problematic reports about production issues or fan protests, basically for free IP, ... raking in billions.
Marvel, bought for a comparable prize, is still going strong after 11 years and 23 movies, and aside from the Larson-hiccups beloved by fans, selling merch .. further raking in billions and already a net profit.
Even their live readaption/remakes of classic Disney movies shows better numbers.

Star Wars is, as a whole after factoring in all costs of acquisition, production, and advertisement, still a loss.
Did some movies make a profit? TFA and TLJ did at the box office. tRoS so far, not.

3.
While TFA and even TLJ brought in quite a lot of cash in ticket-sales, they failed to sell merchandise. RoS is even worse, barely making more than a billion in tickets.
Please remember that those nice, big-sounding numbers are the gross, from which Disney only gets a percentage. From the 500+ millions domestic Disney gets a whopping 60% on average, so in the ballpark of 300+ millions. The foreign market is even worse, with Disney usually getting 40%, so maybe 200+ million dollars.
Now compare the net takeaway of 500+ million dollars with the 275 million dollar productions cost, and then double the cost to account for marketing.
RoS is having a hard time breaking even, with the slim chance of making a loss at the ticket booths. As of last week (Jannuary 24), RoS is behind Rogue One in box office performance.
TLJ is NOT selling on the DVD/BR market, we can expect RoS to do the same. Merchandise sales, especially for the new characters where Disney does not have to pay George Lucas anything, accross the globe and board are down.
So far Disney has, if you look at the net numbers and not the gros, not re-earned the 4 billions they payed GL.

[Mechazod]

The damage is done.

[Ivanstone]

Well, i am a bit lazy and will simply copy the things i wrote you back in the Obi-Wan Kenobi Thread:
snip

How much money has Disney made from all previously existing Star Wars properties? Or will continue to make money? Sure its underperforming. That's not the same as a loss.

The problem with fan numbers is they have an axe to grind and will shade things in the worst possible way (like ignoring the $100m in TLJ home video sales). Meanwhile back at Disney the people who matter, shareholders, will come for Bob Iger's head if they lose too much money. They haven't

[segara82]

How much money has Disney made from all previously existing Star Wars properties? Or will continue to make money? Sure its underperforming. That's not the same as a loss.


The problem with fan numbers is they have an axe to grind and will shade things in the worst possible way (like ignoring the $100m in TLJ home video sales). Meanwhile back at Disney the people who matter, shareholders, will come for Bob Iger's head if they lose too much money. They haven't

True, but the performance of this very expensive IP is sorely lacking from an investors PoV.
And as for the CEO feeling the pressure: according to rumours from different sources Bob Iger ordered several changes to be made to RoS and bringing in George Lucas since the first cut was doing poorly during test screenings.

[Biomega]

How much money has Disney made from all previously existing Star Wars properties? Or will continue to make money? Sure its underperforming. That's not the same as a loss.

Not technically (though I'm sure some of the related investments DID make a loss; it's hard to tell from the outside). But it's irrelevant. What matters is that the profits were far below expectations.

That calls for a response. What kind of response, that depends on many factors. Calling for the head of the chairman is a very drastic measure, and it's probably nowhere near close to reality in this case. But rethinking the business strategy for the franchise going forward? Virtually certain. What form that content will take and what changes will be made is very likely a closely-guarded secret at this time, and/or still being discussed. COULD it be a reboot of some kind? Absolutely. It wouldn't be the first franchise do so - it wouldn't even be the first franchise with "Star" in its name to abandon a disappointing film trilogy and effectively shelve it from canon.

[Ivanstone]

Not technically (though I'm sure some of the related investments DID make a loss; it's hard to tell from the outside). But it's irrelevant. What matters is that the profits were far below expectations.

That calls for a response. What kind of response, that depends on many factors. Calling for the head of the chairman is a very drastic measure, and it's probably nowhere near close to reality in this case. But rethinking the business strategy for the franchise going forward? Virtually certain. What form that content will take and what changes will be made is very likely a closely-guarded secret at this time, and/or still being discussed. COULD it be a reboot of some kind? Absolutely. It wouldn't be the first franchise do so - it wouldn't even be the first franchise with "Star" in its name to abandon a disappointing film trilogy and effectively shelve it from canon.

Well there's two responses that have already happened. One is Disney+ and the other is the Mandalorian. The former works better if you already own the properties being aired and the other shows that you can make a quality product with the existing IP. That's not to say there won't be fuckups (ie slow rolling the Baby Yoda merch) but its by no means a catastrophe.

Its like judging the Marvel purchase by the quality of the lesser MCU films or the Inhumans TV show. Thor Dark World was probably the first fully Disney MCU movie. That's not a high point.

[Biomega]

Well there's two responses that have already happened. One is Disney+ and the other is the Mandalorian. The former works better if you already own the properties being aired and the other shows that you can make a quality product with the existing IP. That's not to say there won't be fuckups (ie slow rolling the Baby Yoda merch) but its by no means a catastrophe.

Its like judging the Marvel purchase by the quality of the lesser MCU films or the Inhumans TV show. Thor Dark World was probably the first fully Disney MCU movie. That's not a high point.

Thor 2 did provoke a response, though, and we can see Thor 3 being VASTLY different and taking the entire character in a different direction with the goofball mannerisms etc.

In any event, it's a matter of scale - Disney isn't dealing with just one movie below expectations, it's dealing with a chain reaction of multiple movies plus merchandise sales disappointing in revenue, and damaging the effective value of the entire franchise. That didn't happen with Thor: The Dark World.

Disney invested billions into SW. They want to see substantial profits from it. It's easy to say "oh come on they still made hundreds of millions from each movie", but they operate under different expectations. It seems pretty clear that the direction they went in with the new trilogy has not paid off like they wanted it to. What that means for the future we will have to see, but I don't think it's an outrageous thought that they might just put the Rey saga on the shelf and do something else.

[Aurrora]

Its been awhile since I looked at the visual dictionary but it suggests the Sith cult existed before RotJ and that Palpatine's inner circle were at least away of Sith cultists. The oldest and original memebers of the Emperor by definition, that's why they were part of the group that survived Operation Cinder and went to form the First Order. Only his diehards made the jump. Sloane and Pryde are two people who definitely knew about Palpatine, at least unsurprised. Hux would have known more than most. But honestly, Palpatine never cared to introduce his military arm to his Sith hand apart from a very select few. You and look at ever apprentice he had. Maul deduced Palps plan but wasn't exactly briefed on it. Dooku didn't know much of anything. It took a while before Palpatine made Vader a Sith and an officially recognized part of the Empire. So it would make since if Palp maintained a veil between the Sith Cult and the First Order. Harder to recruit military leaders when they immediately know they are going to play second to Palps thousand-year-old religion.

Also, the First Order was notoriously undermanned. Their tech and tactics reflected that. Their ships were relatively unmanned/automated. The crew that do have is known to be relatively young. Kids essentially. Remember we're talking forces that span entire sectors of a galaxy commanding ships bigger than real-world countries- million is a small number. The First Order's fleet was small. That's why it wasn't seen as a threat by the New Republic, who didn't know how technically advanced it was.

We can't discount that the First Order was allowed a entire generation (plus some because Palp planted foothold in the Unknown Regions before the end of RotK) to do nothing but conscript and breed an invasion force built upon the collective wisdom of a Sith and die hard warlords.

All in all it didn't really matter if the random stormtrooper, Finn, knew about the grand scheme of things. Those at the top knew, everyone else just followed orders. They knew nothing else because they were raised within the First Order. The First Order solved its numbers problem through propaganda, Starkiller, and defeating the Resistance. Everything would have worked if Palpatine accounted for the Skywalkers and their BS (from Palps PoV). Absolutely nothing could stop Palp but the Skywalkers, which is what happened.

((Sorry if this is jumbled)).

1) There's nothing to indicate the First Order was in any way undermanned. The cross sections book for The Last Jedi explicitly mentions that the First Order ships have vast crew complements, while the Resistance ships are being run by skeleton crews with much of it being automated by droid brains. They had a fleet of 20ish ships pursuing the Resistance fleet in The Last Jedi, each of those ships manned by tens of thousands of people, plus enough ships in reserve that they were able to secure the Galaxy after suffering the near complete loss of that fleet due to the Holdo maneuver. If the First Order fleet was considered "small" it was only by the standards of the Empire and the Grand Army of the Republic. The New Republic at the time had nearly completely demilitarized to the point that they only ships in the Hosnian system when it was destroyed by Starkiller base.

2) If you're going to call the First Order undermanned what the hell do we consider the Resistance? You're telling me the galaxy is so populated that the First Order is conducting mass abductions in the hundreds of thousands if not millions over the course of two decades that it can go unnoticed but then the Resistance only manages to recruit about a thousand people to the cause over six years while being led by heroes from the Rebellion?

3) Sloane would not have taken a leadership position in the First Order if she knew it had anything to do with a reborn Palpatine. In the Aftermath trilogy we see her growing increasingly disillusioned with the Empire and she blames the evil it did as a result of Palpatine corrupting it. At the end she was resolved to remake an Empire that lived up to her idyllic view of what the Empire should have been.

[Die]

The feeling I get after watching the Sequel Trilogy is that the Emperor is very much into redundancy and backups as a path to victory. Defeat the armada you are aware of but he's got more stashed somewhere. I suppose a guy like that has like 100 Emperors with 100 different Sith Fleets in hiding plus 500 more First orders run by Snoke clones. He's like the Burning Legion. The numbers are literally endless as he keeps cloning.

[Beloren]

If true,
Could we be seeing an appropriate sequel to Luke Skywalker's [EP. 4,5, & 6] Era? How will they do this without Carrie? Or we will get a prequel to the prequel and leave 4,5 and 6 alone?


Source: https://www.deseret.com/entertainmen...e-of-skywalker

Imo, they would recast all of them with people that look similar enough but a little older. That's how I'd do it.

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P.s. The sequels did not excite me or fascinate me, they seemed to lack imagination and a rehash of 4-6 with all the gender swapping social politicking. there was very litlte that jumped out at me about any of hteir locations, .. i twa s very safe. But I think that's what they wanted.

[bmjclark]

TLJ definitely lost money. Star Wars movies almost always do, it’s the merch sales where they take it in. That did not happen with TLJ, it being the worst movie ever made.

It made over 1.3 billion dollars at the box office alone... whether or not it was good is a whole other thing but to say it lost them money is just ignoring how numbers work. And honestly, it wasn't even the worst star wars movie made let alone the worst movie ever made.

[Fantomen]

It made over 1.3 billion dollars at the box office alone... whether or not it was good is a whole other thing but to say it lost them money is just ignoring how numbers work.

Now imagen you pay 4 billion for a IP, spend about 1,5 billion in making and market 5 films, and get about 4,5 billion in proffit.... how mutch money have you done? Yes you are -1.0 billion back (the number is only approximate but it show the scale)

Imagen if you invested 6,5 billion in "safe" S&P 500 stock insted of making Star War movies. You will have made atlest 10 billion in proffit insteed (in the long run)

In the eyes of a big corperation Star Wars is a economic faliur... the yield is horibel for the money invested, and its not like the Star Wars IP have increased in value.

[Kithelle]

As much as I'd love it if they retconned the trash Disney Trilogy, it's never gonna happen as long as Kathleen "I use Star Wars as my personal fan fiction" Kennedy is still in charge.

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It made over 1.3 billion dollars at the box office alone... whether or not it was good is a whole other thing but to say it lost them money is just ignoring how numbers work. And honestly, it wasn't even the worst star wars movie made let alone the worst movie ever made.

Yeah...the IP costs 4 billion...TFA and RoS had a lot of reshoots (don't remember TLJ did or not)...lots of toys went unsold to the point where most stores Star Wars toy isle isn't much bigger than a small endcap...each movie made less money than the last...and lets not forget Solo flat out flopped.

It all adds up.

[tikcol]

Make a Revan movie with a Sith as a protagonist.

[Jotaux]

It made over 1.3 billion dollars at the box office alone... whether or not it was good is a whole other thing but to say it lost them money is just ignoring how numbers work. And honestly, it wasn't even the worst star wars movie made let alone the worst movie ever made.

1.3b in revenue, not profit. When you factor in the budget, advertising, interest on 4B, not even the repayment, it’s a loss. They could have literally put that money into a GIC and done better.

TLJ is the worst movie I have ever seen also.

[Kyphael]

Make a Revan movie with a Sith as a protagonist.

I was thinking that the other day. Add in Darth Malak and it would be sick. Just focus on them, a character movie, no need to rehash the entire story from the video game on film.