The Last of Us Part II

[ZazuuPriest]

It took four years to track him down, yes. As in, she didn't sit around for 46 months and then google it one day, this was a constant sustained act of will for four years. My exact point.

I'm so sick of pompous dilettantes that decide to stan some completely banal story and just swan about like "oh it's too sophisticated for you" when the easily poked holes get poked.

your entire argument is based on the fact that you think nothing bad ever happens to Abby, which calls into question whether or not you even played the game and if you have your intelligence. Every single person she cares about dies with the exception of Lev because of her actions. Sorry if the game doesnt show her slitting her wrists from the guilt...

[Kolvarg]

It took four years to track him down, yes. As in, she didn't sit around for 46 months and then google it one day, this was a constant sustained act of will for four years. My exact point.

Ellie and Tommy did it... right now, within days. Abby stewed on it for four years with no demonstrable sign it wasn't always foremost on her mind. Ellie, after the first failed attempt, at least attempted to move on with life. Taking the point about ludonarrative tension out about all the gameplay mass murder, when Ellie learns she's killed a pregnant woman - in self-defense! - she's stricken by it. When Abby wants to kill a now-incapacitated pregnant woman, it's with delight.

Abby is not shown to suffer any turmoil about either the acts of seeking or of taking revenge;

Given what happens in the game, do you think Ellie would have given up if it had taken her 46 months to track Abby?

And by the way, it didn't happen within days as you say. The trip between Jackson and Seattle could have taken anywhere from 14 to 46 days on horseback with perfect conditions through the shortest route, depending on the horses' and riders' conditioning for long travel. Given the overgrown state of the world, the fact that roads and paths are often blocked, the fact that it's winter and snowing, and the need to forage and scavenge food and supplies, camp, and deal with/avoid infected, it's easy to assume it took at the very least a month, likely 2 or more.

Anyways, yes, Abby stewed on it for years and made it such a priority in her life that she allowed it to consume her, destroy her relationship, blind her into following the WLF unquestionably, and obsess over making herself a murder machine for when she meets Joel. That's the point of her story. Abby is what Ellie could have become if she hadn't been able to deal with her grief without enacting revenge.

I know it annoys you that people say you don't get it, but ´when you claim that Abby is not shown to suffer any turmoil, it very clearly indicates that you at the very least missed some important things.

Abby's nightmares don't improve after taking revenge, as she hoped they would. In fact, they got worse. She is shown to have trouble sleeping (similarly to Ellie in the Farm chapter, although not nearly as rough), and the whole point of her arc with Lev and Yara IS about she desperately trying to grasp at an opportunity to seek redemption and to recover a sliver of humanity. Especially as she is confronted with the reality of the tribalism of the WLF and the Scars which she blindly engaged in service for her quest for revenge.

Why should she be sorry? Because the whole point of the game, per its author, is that the cycle of violence and revenge is bad and irredeemably corrosive...

A story can explore a theme and message without the characters having to explicitly reach that very message, in fact it could be exactly the opposite. The game could end with Ellie killing Abby, and Lev killing Ellie in return, and one of the themes would still correctly be the cycle of violence.

The fact that Abby isn't sorry does not devalue in any way the message and exploration of the cycle of violence and revenge. It's extremely reductive and limiting to think it would. This is a dramatic narrative that's supposed to be tragic and entertaining. It explores characters and their emotions more than it does any overarching message or theme. The main point isn't to show some clearcut "revenge bad" morality lesson like some folk tale or fairytale. The main point is showcasing how Ellie and Abby deal with grief, trauma, and their individual internal turmoil.

And Abby did reach her own conclusions on the cycle of violence. I don't think she is sorry for killing Joel, necessarily, but I think she is for sure sorry she allowed it to consume her so much, and for torturing him and even enjoying it instead of just enacting justice. It's her who tries to break the cycle first, twice. First at the theater by not killing Dina and Ellie. Second by the end by refusing to fight with Ellie until she is forced to.

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your entire argument is based on the fact that you think nothing bad ever happens to Abby, which calls into question whether or not you even played the game and if you have your intelligence. Every single person she cares about dies with the exception of Lev because of her actions. Sorry if the game doesnt show her slitting her wrists from the guilt...

No need to be like that mate. It's entirely possible to have played the game and missed key things, it has nothing to do with intelligence. It's even possible that you and I are filling in some blanks with our interpretations that might not be necessarily the correct or intended ones. I really like the game and what the story tries to do, but while there is a reason for the narrative structure to be the way it is, there is no denying that it IS confusing at first, especially with a single playthrough, and there is some subjectivity as to what's going on exactly in the caracters' minds.

And let's not forget that it's easily a 25h+ experience, no matter how much attention you're paying there's going to be things you miss or things you forget. Plus it's not like people are used to having to pay attention and interpret the characters so much in order to understand them and their motivations, much less paying attention to the parallels the narrative structure is creating. It's not common in gaming in general, and much less in AAA action-adventure games.

And even if it wasn't the case, you can defend your position and opinion without having to be hostile. It only makes your points less credible.

[Peacemoon]

My criticism with the story is far too much happens in flashbacks.
Too much between Joel and Ellie happens in flashbacks periodically through the game.

You find out about Abby’s identity in flashbacks too.

Worse, once you get to the climax of Seattle day 3 you are then sent back to day 1 to do the story again from another perspective - but this is like one giant flashback because you know what will tragically happen.

Ellie’s love story with Dinah is poorly written, with the most important scene; their first kiss, not seen until the end in a flashback too. Which makes their whole relationship feel rather flat. I was hoping Dinah would get killed off to be honest. And let’s not hide behind the fact it’s LGBT, it’s still badly written and at times nauseatingly cringe. And I am gay myself so I’m talking purely from a story point of view, I actually like that there is better LGBT representation.

Abby and Owen is much better written.

To be honest I could rant for ages but in essence:
It’s a very cleverly written story
It relies too much on flashbacks
It is so dark, violent and emotionally traumatic that I have little interest in replaying it.
Even though it’s a well crafted story, it’s not the story we wanted. The flashbacks between Joel and Ellie where things are revealed; I wanted to PLAY those scenes in the present tense, with more immediacy and impact, not a flashback.
Almost nothing is furthered with Ellie’s immunity, which was suppose to be the central issue the whole of the first game revolved around.

I really wanted to love this game, but afraid it’s not easy. And there aren’t even trophies for completing it on harder settings.

[Stormdash]

your entire argument is based on the fact that you think nothing bad ever happens to Abby, which calls into question whether or not you even played the game and if you have your intelligence. Every single person she cares about dies with the exception of Lev because of her actions. Sorry if the game doesnt show her slitting her wrists from the guilt...

I never said nothing bad happens to Abby, stop with the bullshit strawmen. I said that seeking and/or taking revenge did not have any negative effect on her character, i.e. the person inside. I even specifically went out of my way that she doesn't even calculate the extrinsic bad things that happen around her, i.e. to her friends, as being a consequence of vengeance. Ellie could be an alien from outer space for all the moral consequence Abby recognizes her as bringing for Abby's own actions. She even implies that the only way in which any of what she's experiencing is her fault is in that she thinks she was too nice to have spared Tommy and Ellie.

As a person, in her inner life, there's no evidence that hunting Joel obsessively for four years and then brutally murdering him with no compunction despite him having literally just saved her life is anything but... cathartic for her, genuinely healing. Suddenly she is open to new possibilities and what do you know, forms a bond of understanding with former enemies. And what do you know, she has a newfound purpose as protector of a young child.

It's frustrating that we know from interviews about Uncharted that Druckman DNGAF about ludonarrative dissonance* (because he's a superb writer, ya'll. superb), and that he indifferently creates a gameplay loop where as both women you slaughter endlessly and remorsely to get from cutscene to cutscene in which we're supposed to reflect on the nature of violence and revenge. But in those cutscenes, only one of the dueling protagonists ever shows sign that there's a moral or emotional toll to violence, and the other one is Abby.

*as an end result, AAA budget or not, genre as stealth combat murder factory or not, trying to tell a story about the horrors of vengeance, the endless cycle of violence, while not caring about the interaction between gameplay and narrative ends up creating an emotional experience less sophisticated than any given Telltale Game. Point being, maybe that story should be more of a puzzle/exploration game punctuated by story-related life and death encounters and not the police precinct scene from "Terminator" every moment in which you aren't looking for scissors.

[everydaygamer]

I never said nothing bad happens to Abby, stop with the bullshit strawmen. I said that seeking and/or taking revenge did not have any negative effect on her character, i.e. the person inside. I even specifically went out of my way that she doesn't even calculate the extrinsic bad things that happen around her, i.e. to her friends, as being a consequence of vengeance. Ellie could be an alien from outer space for all the moral consequence Abby recognizes her as bringing for Abby's own actions. She even implies that the only way in which any of what she's experiencing is her fault is in that she thinks she was too nice to have spared Tommy and Ellie.

As a person, in her inner life, there's no evidence that hunting Joel obsessively for four years and then brutally murdering him with no compunction despite him having literally just saved her life is anything but... cathartic for her, genuinely healing. Suddenly she is open to new possibilities and what do you know, forms a bond of understanding with former enemies. And what do you know, she has a newfound purpose as protector of a young child.

It's frustrating that we know from interviews about Uncharted that Druckman DNGAF about ludonarrative dissonance* (because he's a superb writer, ya'll. superb), and that he indifferently creates a gameplay loop where as both women you slaughter endlessly and remorsely to get from cutscene to cutscene in which we're supposed to reflect on the nature of violence and revenge. But in those cutscenes, only one of the dueling protagonists ever shows sign that there's a moral or emotional toll to violence, and the other one is Abby.

*as an end result, AAA budget or not, genre as stealth combat murder factory or not, trying to tell a story about the horrors of vengeance, the endless cycle of violence, while not caring about the interaction between gameplay and narrative ends up creating an emotional experience less sophisticated than any given Telltale Game. Point being, maybe that story should be more of a puzzle/exploration game punctuated by story-related life and death encounters and not the police precinct scene from "Terminator" every moment in which you aren't looking for scissors.

You just weren't paying attention. It's made clear that she's bothered by Joel's death because she asks her friends if she took things too far, we know that killing Joel didn't actually help her because she's still suffering from the memories of her father's death and she only starts to be able to move on once she starts helping Yara and Lev which she only decides to do out of guilt over what she did to Joel. That's not even mentioning how before killing Joel her obsession over finding him ruined her relationship with Owen.

As for not reacting to her friend's deaths... I mean she clearly does she just doesn't say it out loud but you can tell by her reaction after Manny's death and after she finds her friend's bodies. No matter how you look at it your complaints do mostly come down to a lack of understanding and that's not the games fault because it makes these things as clear as possible without straight-up spelling it out for you. You just have to turn your brain on and actually pay attention to what's going on instead of only listening to what's being said.

[Kolvarg]

It's frustrating that we know from interviews about Uncharted that Druckman DNGAF about ludonarrative dissonance* (because he's a superb writer, ya'll. superb), and that he indifferently creates a gameplay loop where as both women you slaughter endlessly and remorsely to get from cutscene to cutscene in which we're supposed to reflect on the nature of violence and revenge. But in those cutscenes, only one of the dueling protagonists ever shows sign that there's a moral or emotional toll to violence, and the other one is Abby.

*as an end result, AAA budget or not, genre as stealth combat murder factory or not, trying to tell a story about the horrors of vengeance, the endless cycle of violence, while not caring about the interaction between gameplay and narrative ends up creating an emotional experience less sophisticated than any given Telltale Game. Point being, maybe that story should be more of a puzzle/exploration game punctuated by story-related life and death encounters and not the police precinct scene from "Terminator" every moment in which you aren't looking for scissors.

I feel like the ludonarrative dissonance thing is highly overstated, especially when it gets janked into conversations that revolve around whether the writing is good or bad on a more objective level.

First, because I don't even think it's fair to call it bad writing if the designers are simply avoiding telling a narrative through the gameplay. Meaning, if the gameplay is essentially only a "minigame" you play to unlock the next cutscene, it's not even conflicting with the story as it's essentially non-canon.
And for the most part, I think that's the case here. It's not a case of the writers not being able to complement the story with gameplay narrative, as much as it is the writers stepping back and giving freedom to the player so that the gameplay is as fun and versatile as possible.

Would a telltale-style "gameplay" fit better with the story and narrative being told? Probably. But then there are also monetary concerns (those games don't sell as well), there are artistic concerns (Naughty Dog doesn't and likely doesn't want to do branching story paths, it's not what they do), and it's not like the telltale-style gameplay is without issues. Imo that style can be even more infuriating because by having agency in what choices the characters do, you are closer to them. And that makes it all the more jarring and frustrating when you don't like any of the available choices, or when the choices feel extremely forced for the sake of drama and shock, which is a common issue in telltale games. While in the action-adventure style you have no agency, you are just tagging along and unlocking story through gameplay, so it's not as frustrating when a character does something you don't like because it's the character doing it, it's not your choice. Both styles have their merits and their negatives, and some people will prefer one over the other. Not to mention that it would become even less of a game, as those games border on being interactive movies. There is no "correct" choice.

Secondly, I'm not entirely convinced that the gameplay conflicts with the story or the themes. Not only because killing many humans throughout the gameplay is entirely optional, but because none of the people killed by the characters are really seen as innocent. I mean, think about Ellie's perspective about the WLF: They had a group of people come out of their way to torture and murder her adoptive dad. The second encounter with them is being ambushed, captured and nearly executed. Every single soldier you are able to kill through gameplay IS actively looking for you, and will shoot on sight. So killing them IS very much a survival situation, not just simple "murder" at least by intent. Whereas the people she kills in the cutscenes are people she is actively seeking out, ready to torture and kill if needed to get what she wants. It's only natural she has a different response to those deaths.

Furthermore, you do see a progression in gameplay as well, through Ellie's voice prompts. Initially, Ellie sounds shocked and out of words with every kill, while as you go through the three days through Seattle she becomes more and more desensitized to killing those soldiers, by the end sounding almost annoyed with them that they're standing in her way and making it harder to get to where she wants. This is entirely cohesive with her deteriorating mental state throughout the story. Because they are a very real threat, and on the "enemy side", she dehumanizes them and kills them without thinking twice - much like the WLF and the Scars kill each other with no second thought. It's when she kills vulnerable people that are not soldiers, and the people she's actively targeting, especially when she realizes Mel was pregnant, that she is confronted that she's ending vulnerable lives. It's not that hard to imagine, if you have killed lots of them in gameplay, that it actually makes her snap out of it and realize that some of the people she killed might have been more innocent than she previously thought as well.

Yes, with Abby there is not as much of this, certainly not as directly exposed - though I do think she does show hints of it through her actions and choices. I mean, she does choose to end the cycle by not killing Dina or Ellie. And you don't really kill any more humans with her since then. And much like Ellie, the humans you do kill in is in a survival and self-defense way. Regardless, even if she doesn't, that's entirely fine and doesn't detract from the story or the message. You don't need both characters to realize the "message" of the story in order for you to reflect on it.

So even if the gameplay conflicts somewhat with the theme of the cycle of violence, it very much plays into the other themes of tribalism and otherness.

[ZazuuPriest]

I never said nothing bad happens to Abby, stop with the bullshit strawmen. I said that seeking and/or taking revenge did not have any negative effect on her character, i.e. the person inside. I even specifically went out of my way that she doesn't even calculate the extrinsic bad things that happen around her, i.e. to her friends, as being a consequence of vengeance. Ellie could be an alien from outer space for all the moral consequence Abby recognizes her as bringing for Abby's own actions. She even implies that the only way in which any of what she's experiencing is her fault is in that she thinks she was too nice to have spared Tommy and Ellie.

As a person, in her inner life, there's no evidence that hunting Joel obsessively for four years and then brutally murdering him with no compunction despite him having literally just saved her life is anything but... cathartic for her, genuinely healing. Suddenly she is open to new possibilities and what do you know, forms a bond of understanding with former enemies. And what do you know, she has a newfound purpose as protector of a young child.

It's frustrating that we know from interviews about Uncharted that Druckman DNGAF about ludonarrative dissonance* (because he's a superb writer, ya'll. superb), and that he indifferently creates a gameplay loop where as both women you slaughter endlessly and remorsely to get from cutscene to cutscene in which we're supposed to reflect on the nature of violence and revenge. But in those cutscenes, only one of the dueling protagonists ever shows sign that there's a moral or emotional toll to violence, and the other one is Abby.

*as an end result, AAA budget or not, genre as stealth combat murder factory or not, trying to tell a story about the horrors of vengeance, the endless cycle of violence, while not caring about the interaction between gameplay and narrative ends up creating an emotional experience less sophisticated than any given Telltale Game. Point being, maybe that story should be more of a puzzle/exploration game punctuated by story-related life and death encounters and not the police precinct scene from "Terminator" every moment in which you aren't looking for scissors.

so what you want is for Abby's character to be exactly like Ellie's character instead of exactly like Joel's character.. whom I assume you take no issue with at the end of the first game.

[Darththeo]

so what you want is for Abby's character to be exactly like Ellie's character instead of exactly like Joel's character.. whom I assume you take no issue with at the end of the first game.

I only had to read the first sentence of the post your replying to know you have no understanding of what the person you are replying to is saying. They seem to be saying that Abby choices do not help her grow as a character ... and if you think Joel's decision didn't affect him, I am going to assume you haven't played the first game or the second.

Abby's character is neither like Joel's or Ellie's and does really nothing. Her character is "whatever the plot demands I do." Even the scene where she is killing Joel makes no sense because she only is alive because of Joel ex machina so to speak. Abby's decision should have gotten her killed before she ever even met Joel.

---
On another note:

So Neil shared his own death threats he is getting on social media on Twitter ... and at this point, he is coming across more of "Look at the hate I am getting, don't you see how these people despise me?" attempting to drum up sympathy. I don't support the death threats, but he seems to be inviting more of them to me that he wants them. After all, there is no such thing as bad press ... as long as he can keep his game in the headlines, it doesn't matter how bad sales drop because it seems like his game is still relevant.

[everydaygamer]

I only had to read the first sentence of the post your replying to know you have no understanding of what the person you are replying to is saying. They seem to be saying that Abby choices do not help her grow as a character ... and if you think Joel's decision didn't affect him, I am going to assume you haven't played the first game.

---
On another note:

So Neil shared his own death threats he is getting on social media on Twitter ... and at this point, he is coming across more of "Look at the hate I am getting, don't you see how these people despise me?" attempting to drum up sympathy. I don't support the death threats, but he seems to be inviting more of them to me that he wants them. After all, there is no such thing as bad press ... as long as he can keep his game in the headlines, it doesn't matter how bad sales drop because it seems like his game is still relevant.

Which is nonsense, her entire story is literally about how she ends up changing as a result of her choice to torture and kill Joel.

[PaladinSum]

Which is nonsense, her entire story is literally about how she ends up changing as a result of her choice to torture and kill Joel.

And we return to "She's pregnant" "Good" for the counter evidence that she actually grew or change.

100% would have killed her if better human being Lev wasn't there.

[Rennadrel]

I only had to read the first sentence of the post your replying to know you have no understanding of what the person you are replying to is saying. They seem to be saying that Abby choices do not help her grow as a character ... and if you think Joel's decision didn't affect him, I am going to assume you haven't played the first game or the second.

Abby's character is neither like Joel's or Ellie's and does really nothing. Her character is "whatever the plot demands I do." Even the scene where she is killing Joel makes no sense because she only is alive because of Joel ex machina so to speak. Abby's decision should have gotten her killed before she ever even met Joel.

---
On another note:

So Neil shared his own death threats he is getting on social media on Twitter ... and at this point, he is coming across more of "Look at the hate I am getting, don't you see how these people despise me?" attempting to drum up sympathy. I don't support the death threats, but he seems to be inviting more of them to me that he wants them. After all, there is no such thing as bad press ... as long as he can keep his game in the headlines, it doesn't matter how bad sales drop because it seems like his game is still relevant.

I don't condone death threats but considering how many times a mocked his own customers after the reaction to the announcement trailer, and his perpetual baiting attempts on Twitter in the years since, I kinda have zero fucks to be given to him. That's on top of all the DMCA shenanigans, which was already a tipping point.

[Tech614]

I don't condone death threats but considering how many times a mocked his own customers after the reaction to the announcement trailer, and his perpetual baiting attempts on Twitter in the years since, I kinda have zero fucks to be given to him. That's on top of all the DMCA shenanigans, which was already a tipping point.

"I don't condone death threats but Neil made me feel bad about my gamergate mentality so fuck him"

FTFY

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

Did anyone see the speedrun to the Real/Good ending?

[Darththeo]

The thing saving this game is the visuals, combat is still pretty much unchanged since the first, but is alright.

The story is crap ... I am sorry, you can like the story, but it is total crap. The plot armor that Ellie and Abby have for their portions is insanely obvious. And that is even before we get into the Seattle portion of the game. The story is a like watching a low budget action thriller.

I love Laura as a voice actress, but Abby was so poorly written that she did the best she could. There were better and more interesting ways to tell the story. This way was insulting to my intelligence. There are scenes that are shock value for the sake of shock value ... and when you do that ... guess what? They aren't shocking.

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I don't condone death threats but considering how many times a mocked his own customers after the reaction to the announcement trailer, and his perpetual baiting attempts on Twitter in the years since, I kinda have zero fucks to be given to him. That's on top of all the DMCA shenanigans, which was already a tipping point.

It annoys me because Laura posted threats saying "Hey this is not right, stop." And then Neil had to post the ones he was getting too ... seriously, wtf? He comes across clearly as baiting, he posted more than Laura did so showing that he gets more (or rather implying). After the DMCA claims he admitted to being involved with after lying he didn't have anything to do with them.

Honestly, I won't be surprised if Naughty Dog collapses under his ego at this point.

[ohiostate124]

Neil’s massive ego is quite off putting. Bring back Amy.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

And we return to "She's pregnant" "Good" for the counter evidence that she actually grew or change.

100% would have killed her if better human being Lev wasn't there.

That part of the game still takes part while she is in the processing of changing as a person it’s not an on off which where you go form killing Joel to saving lev and your totally different person. As far as seeing the end result goes we only get the short part where she looking for the fireflies with lev and then when she refuses to fight ellie until she threatens lev.

She could have been given more screen times but they would rather give it to ellie at that end part as ultimately abbie’s ending doesn’t really matter while Ellie’s does.

[qwerty123456]

it's not that the criticism becomes invalid it just becomes devalued when you can't even grasp the basic that are blatantly shown to you though out the game. you don't need any thing outside of what's shown to you in game to explain the story or writing you just need to not stick your head in the sand while going though the actual game.

when it comes to joe's views its plainly clear even if you just go to his stream for a bit like i did that he has some huge bias that blind him to many things even if he try's to pretend he doesn't like at the start of his review.

So he has some hidden bias and/or panders to his fans and yet gave the first two episodes of Star Trek Discovery a 9/10??

[Tech614]

Neil’s massive ego is quite off putting. Bring back Amy.

Why so she can make a failed project that gets cancelled? Because that's all she has done post Uncharted 3.

They canned her Uncharted 4 for a reason. EA canned her stuff for probably the same reasons. Amy is a legend but she should not be heading up games anymore and should be in advisor roles.

[Malix Farwin]

This is the funniest naughty dog game I've played since crash bandicoot when I was a kid. It keeps getting better and better the further you go. The gameplay is incredibly thrilling mid to late game. Will definitely have a few run throughs of this over the years.

So lol at how misinformed people were pre launch about the story. Can't imagine missing out on this game because youtubers needed content during covid lockdown

Ehh theres plenty of games out there i do not need to play this.

[Kolvarg]

The story is crap ... I am sorry, you can like the story, but it is total crap.

Or.. you can dislike the story, and it doesn't mean it's crap.

The plot armor that Ellie and Abby have for their portions is insanely obvious.

Plot armor like surviving multiple encounters with infected on outbreak day while unarmed?
Plot armor like the soldier's shots only hitting Sarah and not Joel?
Like escaping soldiers chasing you multiple times while they shoot at you and miraculously miss?
Like being grabbed by a clicker that for some reason tries to wrestle with you instead of biting?
Like surviving an old car crashing into a store, and being completely unharmed by it to the point of fighting dozens of bandits?
...
Like being impaled by a pipe and being rescued and healed by a 14-year old with no medical knowledge whatsoever?

Look, plot armor and plot holes/conveniences are valid criticism sure. But let's not pretend the first game didn't resort heavily on them either. As does any other ND game, or really many AAA action-adventure games in general.

And yes, even high budget action movies do much of the same often and rely on visuals and action sequences alone, in fact they're quite often worse and less interesting stories.

It annoys me because Laura posted threats saying "Hey this is not right, stop." And then Neil had to post the ones he was getting too ... seriously, wtf? He comes across clearly as baiting, he posted more than Laura did so showing that he gets more (or rather implying).

Or he's doing it as to stand together with the people he worked with, and to expose how this is still a problem? Seems like you just have a serious bone to pick with him.