Another "I can't breath" death: Police Reform & Protests in the USA

[Elegiac]

Agreed, and I'd rarely ever argue against someone fleeing if someone is smashing their windows (except if the driver provoked the response in the first place, as you say). But in frighteningly few cases that I've seen does this seem to occur. Most of the recent instances of this that I've seen do now show the driver of the vehicle in anything that one could call "danger" in any way, shape, or form, much less the kind of danger that would require them to run people the fuck over.

I dunno, why do people typically try to "both sides" the endemic problem of white supremacy in the US? Couldn't possibly have something to do with the same people's automatic instinct to just happen to take the side against people who are demonstrating for social reform? Or maybe the compulsion to come into a thread about systemic racism and, as Themius said, make it a pity party for white people facing "racism" despite there being no system of oppression or erasure set up against them.

Honestly, I blame South Park. An entire generation of young men have had their minds poisoned to hold all strong political beliefs as equally worthless, and have developed a gut reaction to assume that anyone advocating too enthusiastically for a given cause must be irrational or unreasonable because caring about things is a sign of being a bluepill or whatever chuds term it now that the Wachowskis have reclaimed the term redpill.

[Mayhem]

I'm sure it has nothing to do with you shilling for a racist for 3 years without remorse...

Dacien is the real victim of Daciens posts and comments! Would someone please think of Dacien?

[Elegiac]

I never did. Please don't misrepresent others.

You know what DiAngelo's "White Fragility theory" basically boils down to:
"Don't worry about those Trump supporters openly demanding the murder of black people, it's those evil Democrats who claim they're not racists who are the real problem within the UsA!"

Pot, kettle. Lol. This is absolutely not what "white fragility" is - and fun fact, it's not even DiAngelo's theory. She is one of the more prominent writers on the subject, but white fragility has been an observed phenomenon as far back as abolition. So trying to paint it as some sort of liberal false flag operation or whatever the fuck you're insinuating is just a blatant character attack against the author rather than actually disputing the existence of the concept itself. Which is literally all you and Theo can seem to muster on the subject.

The intersection between far right and far right hatred of the professional classes is really one of the best pieces of evidence for horseshoe theory, at least if the constant bitching about people's HR background is anything to go by. I get that the existence of specialists kind of goes against the vision you have of a purely egalitarian society, but you seem to take it to the level of a personal attack. Similarly, the necessity of specialists to be actually, you know...good at their jobs rather than simply defaulting or legacy admitting into it is why so many right wingers bitch about the same thing - because it is an enabler of social mobility, which is where we're getting the Theological attacks from.

If you want a fantastic example of allyship fatigue and white fragility, just look at Reconstruction. Or you could actually fuckin' read anything by Angela Davis since you seem to claim to be such a well informed Marxist. The only one drawing a line of mutual exclusivity between observing that white people get defensive when confronted with their racism and addressing police reform is you.

But hey, what else can we expect from the same ideology that is pro-working class, unless they disagree with me politically.

You also have a moral compass that points you toward the less politically correct people and yet you also think "fuck the poor"?

Yes.

But only the ones that do absolutely nothing.

[Felya]

There is something about it, where you've lived your whole life just not even seeing race, some of the people that you've been down and out with in seriously bad times, like homelessness, have been Hispanic or black, you just don't even know what it's like to hate anyone for race, and people who don't know anything about you tell you that you're a racist. There's something about it that you just can't even believe.

If you saw race, you would have noticed that the protests of systematic murder of black people by police, to respond with ‘think of how their parents feel’. Because that’s what you did when discussing immigration, to justify Trump’s child separation. It’s an amazing skill not to see race, thus not notice police violence, but be keenly aware of one’s citizenship statues... without checking any ID.

Just this scorched earth, flailing of arms, smacking anyone who happens to be in the way. I'm sure a lot of actual racists catch the back of the hand with that approach, but a lot of people like me get hit as well. I just don't see how we can possibly move forward like that.

Why wouldn’t you catch it? If you can’t see race, people explaining systematic racism to you, shouldn’t seem like an affront. A blind person doesn’t take issue with someone explaining what a landscape looks like. Yet, explaining what the race landscape looks like, to someone who is blind to race, is scorched earth? Don’t you see the problem there and why people might react negatively to it?

Is there any other subject you can’t see or can’t understand, where the explanation is insulting?

- - - Updated - - -

True, I do support the working classes and therefor I do criticize the badly thought out ideas which get espewed from the bowels of middle management in their servitude to capitalism and the exploitation of working classes and minorities.

Your issue is middle management? The position largely eliminated a decade ago, because it didn’t actually do anything? Pointing at middle management as some kind of evil attacking working class and minorities... is absurd... it’s comically naive...

The conversation about what needs to be done for black rights should not be drowned out by some white marketing scheme and book stunt. Make sure that black people stop getting murdered by the police first and after that you can have this 'high society' ivory tower conversation about 'white fragility', a theory by white upper class people for their obedient underlings, but now is not the time.

What? This doesn’t mean anything... it’s word salad...

[Zython]

Not really. Most stats show improvements.

I was just giving you illustration on how your only available response to such accusation is essence of white fragility - ad-hominem and suspicion of motives rather then self-reflection.

You asked what i disagreed with, i have given you example, and then you, as far as i see, disagreed with it as well. Thus we agree on it?

Can you actually engage with it? I actually consider White Fragility a racist concept, as i see it as essentialism on racial basis - that whites cannot be anything but oppressors and structural racists (despite literal centuries of white-on-white oppression), and that racism is norm (for whites) rather then exception. And thus you defending it makes you defender of racist ideas in my eyes.

It is "white superiority" repackaged as "and we should atone for our sins using our superior position".

No, you were just giving a strawman to accuse me of racism in bad faith. All you proved is that you can't be trusted to engage honestly.

[Edge-]

NYPD Commissioner: THIS BAIL REFORM STUFF AND EMPTYING OUT PRISONS ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE INCREASE IN GUN VIOLENCE!

NYPD Data: 1 person released under bail reform has been charged with a shooting related offense, and .8% (91/11,000) of prisoners released from Rikers have been near shootings. Of those, 25 were victims and 24 were witnesses. 31 are suspects, and only 10 are "perps", which the NYPD did not bother to define. Of the additional 2,500 temporarily released to reduce overcrowding, 275 have been arrested on charges, and only 9 (.3%) have had any links to shootings.

https://nypost.com/2020/07/08/nypds-...-to-shootings/

TLDR: NYPD are fucking liars and cannot be trusted.

[Endus]

When you have very obvious structural racism in front of you like:
- the misbehavior of the police towards minorities and vulnerable groups

It does become nothing but a distraction when you suddenly have voices bringing up: "But white fragility!", as they're trying to sell a book, and suddenly wanting to point the finger at everyone white who is already conscious about racism and who do their best not to be as such.

On one end you have white police making white supremacy signs at riots and protests or with clear affiliations to groups such as the KKK, etc.
and on the other side you got DiAngelo pointing her fingers at average kind-hearted housewives and dudes because they dare say they're not racist and support BLM.

To then go and ignore those white supremacist police and any focus on reform, and to start putting the blame on innocent people is the very definition of structural racism. Some capitalist HR marketing scheme trying to prevent change where it's necessary, by pretending to be "the solution for racism".

You know what DiAngelo's "White Fragility theory" basically boils down to:
"Don't worry about those Trump supporters openly demanding the murder of black people, it's those evil Democrats who claim they're not racists who are the real problem within the UsA!"

Ironically, your insistence on misrepresenting both what DiAngelo's argument is and what "white fragility" means, they both very clearly underscore your own fragility; you're lashing out in anger at the suggestion that you might have some internalized biases and should engage in open-eyed critical self-reflection to uncover and eliminate them wherever possible, in an ongoing manner.

Doing so provides such a threat to your self-identity that you have to reject it in anger and condemn it and anyone who discusses such a thing.

That's exactly what "white fragility" is. You're providing a textbook example. If I thought it was an act you were doing to prove the point, I'd applaud, but I'm pretty sure you're serious and just completely unaware of how clear an example you're providing.

[Endus]

Funny.

Personally I find it nothing short of an insult to imply that I never did any critical self-reflection on my own potential racism. On the contrary, it's something that is quite often on my mind.

And yet, you're lashing out in anger at the suggestion that you do so, here in this thread. That's why you're attacking DiAngelo.

You are providing a textbook example of how this is going to be abused and how SJW-nonsense can be taken to dangerous extremes.

"NO U" is a dumb argument. This is right up there with "you're the real racist for pointing out how racist I am" bullshit.

[Endus]

Sometimes it is the truth. Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

You've yet to make an actual counter-argument. You're just being insulting and not presenting any rationale whatsoever.

[Deadite]

What is this, the modern version of witch hunting?

You can't win. Either you are a rasict or you have 'White Fragility' to hide your racism. They have got you no matter what you say. The more you argue with them the more guilty you look in their eyes. Pretty clever really.

[Saucexorzski]

You can't win. Either you are a rasict or you have 'White Fragility' to hide your racism. They have got you no matter what you say. The more you argue with them the more guilty you look in their eyes. Pretty clever really.

Same logic as the witch trials. We claim that you are a witch, for you to deny being a witch is exactly what a witch would do, proving you are a witch. It be hilarious except for the part that half the country truly believes it.

[Thee ANCOM]

this idea that you can stamp out racism on the individual level is a joke. the only real solution is systemic change of our political and economic system, anything else is (and I don't throw this word around) virtue signalling.

[Themius]

You can't win. Either you are a rasict or you have 'White Fragility' to hide your racism. They have got you no matter what you say. The more you argue with them the more guilty you look in their eyes. Pretty clever really.

You can win by not practising either??? how about that?

[Shalcker]

No, you were just giving a strawman to accuse me of racism in bad faith. All you proved is that you can't be trusted to engage honestly.

You're free to be wrong. It was direct example of exactly the thing i was against as you asked - "What are they saying that’s offending you so much?" That was what i'm hearing from white fragility accusations.

That you yourself devolve into white fragility when confronted with such example rather then engage in self-reflection as Endus expect of people is perfectly typical.

What are you seeing in it?

[Deadite]

You can win by not practising either??? how about that?

Well i don't practise racism but saying i ain't a racist while being white means i am practising white fragility going by your made up term.

[Themius]

Well i don't practise racism but saying i ain't a racist while being white means i am practising white fragility going by your made up term.

It isn't about saying you're not racist while being white... it is when someone mentions racist issues around white people and other people and your instinct is to butt in and be like "but I'm not racist how dare you" As though you were singled out.

[Endus]

Well i don't practise racism but saying i ain't a racist while being white means i am practising white fragility going by your made up term.

What you mean is "because I don't consciously seek to be actively racist, I must not be able to be subconsciously racist or have internalized any systemic structures of society that were themselves rooted in racism".

And that's not a claim that holds up.

Edit: As a for-instance, consider the lack of black Americans or women in tech fields today, proportionally. There are a few possible explanations;

1> They're just, like, dumber than white men and can't handle it. This is obviously bigoted horseshit and I mention it to get it out of the way.

2> Companies are actively discriminating against those groups. Possible, but you'd need to demonstrate that in specific to make that case. If you could, fuck that company, obviously.

3> Society is somehow pushing these groups to not pursue careers in these fields, or failing them at early educational levels leaving them too great a gap to consistently make up for in seeking to transition into them. This is systemic racism.

And while it's not any one company's fault, if that company is not actively working to redress that systemic issue, they are passively accepting that systemically racist paradigm as if it were "normal". Which, yeah. Means they've internalized racist views and support those racist tropes. And that deserves to be called out. It's true even if their hiring practices give every applicant a number and cleanse resumes of identifiable items, so that they can be evaluated solely on the facts of those resumes, because the list of resumes they garner are already showing the effects of systemic racism. Indeed, doing so ensures that the company can't do anything to address those systemic issues, and makes them active participants in that racist status quo.

Getting upset when this gets pointed out? That's where "white fragility" comes in.

[Zython]

You're free to be wrong. It was direct example of exactly the thing i was against as you asked - "What are they saying that’s offending you so much?" That was what i'm hearing from white fragility accusations.

If that's the case, then you'll be able to cite what you said verbatim, right?

That you yourself devolve into white fragility when confronted with such example rather then engage in self-reflection as Endus expect of people is perfectly typical.

What are you seeing in it?

Well, the fact that people don't actually talk that way outside of far-right strawmanning is the first clue.

[Shalcker]

If that's the case, then you'll be able to cite what you said verbatim, right?

Show me the difference from:

What you mean is "because I don't consciously seek to be actively racist, I must not be able to be subconsciously racist or have internalized any systemic structures of society that were themselves rooted in racism".

[Elegiac]

Well i don't practise racism but saying i ain't a racist while being white means i am practising white fragility going by your made up term.

All white people are racist by default in the Anglosphere and most of the Europeanized world. If you are not a racist you are either a miracle or have made the decision to get woke - because our education and cultural narratives are set up in such a way as to buttress the myth of white superiority. Simple truth.
[Infraction]