Solution to the whole covenant problem.

[Krakan]

Character progression is what I enjoy and seeing results from it.
Same reason why anyone chase gear for example.

There is a key difference though you must admit. One is tied to improving and advancing in the game. The other rewards excessive and unhealthy play time and acts as nothing but a time gate...

[Soon-TM]

It's quite rare for the best PvP class, the best M+ class, and the best raiding class to all be the same thing. So what have you been doing for every expansion prior to shadowlands?

The fact is you've always been making choices like this, you just didn't notice or care about it until it became the latest hot button issue.

My favourite class is mage. Quite strong in dungeons and in PvP, thank you very much

And no, as I said before, I never had to do such a !@#$ty choice ever before.

[Kumorii]

There is a key difference though you must admit. One is tied to improving and advancing in the game. The other rewards excessive and unhealthy play time and acts as nothing but a time gate...

Of course there are bad ways to implement character progression as well as there are good ways...No one is denying or arguing that. It's also very subjective. Hence the idea of "everyone wins" is flawed.

[Big Thanks]

There is a key difference though you must admit. One is tied to improving and advancing in the game. The other rewards excessive and unhealthy play time and acts as nothing but a time gate...

Thats Blizzards fault...

This "Character Customization" system is only timagated because Blizzard wants to timegate it.

But just so you know, im also a "character customization addict".
I would hate to see this only work..."where it doesnt matter"

[Hitei]

My favourite class is mage. Quite strong in dungeons and in PvP, thank you very much

And no, as I said before, I never had to do such a !@#$ty choice ever before.

You have though. There have been plenty of patches where mage is not the top end in PvP, and plenty of patches where mage is not the top end in PvE, and plenty of patches where it was not the top end for either of the two systems. The fact that you think you haven't made this choice is proving my exact point. You cared so little about the balance you just chose the flavor and gameplay you wanted without even batting an eye or considering that you were actually being asked to choose between different optimizations.

You've been happy to pick something that is good at PvE but not PvP, or good in PvP but not PvE, or not the optimal choice in either, this entire time. It's only now, that people are making a big deal out of it, that suddenly it's super important you be able to be the most optimal in both.

[Krakan]

Of course there are bad ways to implement character progression as well as there are good ways...No one is denying or arguing that. It's also very subjective. Hence the idea of "everyone wins" is flawed.

Well yes if you want to play that game I will always lose after all there are people who believe having their genitals smashed with a hammer is a jolly good time.

[Jazzhands]

I can't see a way for any of these systems to exist without a time wall . In fact that is what they are. There isn't a reason not to bake that power into a character via level up.

The time wall in and of itself isn't blocking the fun, it's excessive time walls, but what constitutes excessive is objective. To me, a month or so of catch up is perfectly reasonable for an MMO because they're games that are meant to be played over long periods of time, but I've read plenty of comments from people who think even two weeks of catch up is too much. MMOs are meant to be time sinks, people should more or less expect some kind of "time wall".

There needs to be progression, and with progression there will always be people who fall behind or new players who need to catch up, this is inevitable in this kind of game. I think the answer to time walls is simply returning to systems that aren't gated via daily quests but just gated simply by how quickly you want to invest the time, so more or less like old school reputations but more interesting ways to gain it. It will take both players 20 hours of game time, but player A can do it in a week and player B can do it in a month.

[Krakan]

The time wall in and of itself isn't blocking the fun, it's excessive time walls, but what constitutes excessive is objective. To me, a month or so of catch up is perfectly reasonable for an MMO because they're games that are meant to be played over long periods of time, but I've read plenty of comments from people who think even two weeks of catch up is too much. MMOs are meant to be time sinks, people should more or less expect some kind of "time wall".

There needs to be progression, and with progression there will always be people who fall behind or new players who need to catch up, this is inevitable in this kind of game. I think the answer to time walls is simply returning to systems that aren't gated via daily quests but just gated simply by how quickly you want to invest the time, so more or less like old school reputations but more interesting ways to gain it. It will take both players 20 hours of game time, but player A can do it in a week and player B can do it in a month.

I suppose where we at least dont see eye to eye is why does it take both players 20 hours?

This arbitrary time gates never really made sense to me. If I can clear harder difficulty with less gear why should I not simply be able to leap frog into content I enjoy? What value is added to anyone's game by restricting me to trivial content I don't find engaging?

I would be for returning time gating to roughly the levels it was at in tbc maybe cata. Where most if not all the rewards from rep where catch up gear or vanity items.

[Vakir]

Honestly I don't really agree. I don't think there's anything wrong with having more high level choices on the same level as race and class. I've been thinking of it in terms of a "subclass" since they announced it.

Maybe if you chose your Covenant on the character creation screen instead of in-game people would feel differently about it.

I appreciate that they're trying to create a choice on the same level of class or race as they've said in interviews, but I feel like they're being a bit disingenuous beyond the surface level on it. When I roll a class, I already have a good understanding of the capabilities of that class in their entirety. Nothing prevents me from going into a specialization that is better in PvP or M+. Nothing stops me from taking a talent that is better in a certain fight. There's an entire suite of PvP options for each class. So even something hardwired like class gives more freedom than Covenant abilities do, which are so heavily limiting in terms of the type of content you do and the specific situation you use them in. Many of them are flat out "best" for tanking because they reap benefits that only exist FOR tanking. Many are outright PvP oriented abilities.

There's also the problem that I can indeed change Covenants, as they intend right now, and I can't change my class outright. Races with a paid service, sure, but not within the gameplay. So for them to say it's on the same level is dishonest.

It isn't. They're making it possible to change for a reason - they want to waste everyone's time so it goes into their pockets, be it via Tokens or direct money. And if they go the opposite route and make them completely non-negotiable? When top level players are talking about rolling 4 of the same character, you have well and truly fucked up.

It's the real reason they're doing it. Just as Wakening Essences and Echoes should've existed from the start (perhaps with higher costs) and they had to have known that. The community needs to hold them accountable. They know it's a bad decision. They are trying to take your time in a dishonest manner.

I think we should make posts about this when the game is actually out of beta.

...no. That is the opposite of how these things work. You make these kinds of posts well, WELL in advance of Alpha/Beta being completed. You make these posts as soon as humanly possible once you know the way things work mechanically, because the sooner you provide feedback and put your foot down on bad design decisions, the more likely things will be changed to accommodate out of what is blatantly a poor decision. Sitting on your thumb and rotating until something is blatantly an issue is how we end up in situations where we have broken systems for 70% of the expansion, like BFA.

[VinceVega]

So you dont want to deal with the consequences of your choices, is that accurate?

Not in an MMO. Storywise yes. Player power no.

[A Chozo]

Not in an MMO. Storywise yes. Player power no.

You play a RPG, you deal with the consequences of your choices, simple as that.

Thunderbolted the wrong slime? Consequence.
Chose your allies poorly? Consequence too.

Chose wisely.

[Vakir]

You play a RPG, you deal with the consequences of your choices, simple as that.

Thunderbolted the wrong slime? Consequence.
Chose your allies poorly? Consequence too.

Chose wisely.

"Chose wisely" is unintentionally hilarious and sums up the issues with the post, really.

This isn't a single player RPG. It's an MMORPG. Very different. Your choices aren't your own, they are a community-driven one.

Hell, even in a single player RPG, when story over-dictates player power, it's generally considered bad design. Remember when picking Path of the Open Hand for the majority of the game made you have a 20% damage increase vs. Sun Li in Jade Empire? Me neither. That's bad design.

Choices should matter - in absence of player power, especially player power that is heavily influenced by community perception. I believe Covenants shouldn't be able to be changed at all, actually. But the abilities? Should be freely swapped.

Covenants should be every single thing they are, the transmogs, the title, the transport system, the special activities, the different sanctum benefits, the exclusive campaigns, etc. with no compromises...except player power.

[Kageaki]

What problem OP?

[A Chozo]

"Chose wisely" is unintentionally hilarious and sums up the issues with the post, really.

This isn't a single player RPG. It's an MMORPG. Very different. Your choices aren't your own, they are a community-driven one.

Choose even more wisely then.

I'm sure such good players will handle it.

[Vakir]

Choose even more wisely then.

I'm sure such good players will handle it.

Good players will handle it - by investing needless amounts of time to swap depending on what their current activity or focus is. Also bad design.

There is no choice - only heavily dictated suggestion by nature of one being better than the other. And if they want to heavily adjust those by tuning even further? They're going to inevitably take interesting abilities individually and over-homogenize them, which is a net disadvantage for everyone, including people who don't care.

Anyone saying "but it's choice!" either hasn't thought carefully enough about it or is just mindlessly parroting the bottom line. We've established why it isn't, and we've established why choice of this kind in an MMO is bullshit.

[Jazzhands]

I suppose where we at least dont see eye to eye is why does it take both players 20 hours?

This arbitrary time gates never really made sense to me. If I can clear harder difficulty with less gear why should I not simply be able to leap frog into content I enjoy? What value is added to anyone's game by restricting me to trivial content I don't find engaging?

I would be for returning time gating to roughly the levels it was at in tbc maybe cata. Where most if not all the rewards from rep where catch up gear or vanity items.

It takes both players 20 hours because the content was designed to take 20 hours, but 20 in this case is simply an average, in WoW players will always complete content at different paces, I thought that would be kind of obvious. The idea is that you complete the content at your pace and not based on time locked dailies, instead of taking 2 months to do the 20 hour grind because it's all dailies you can do it in a week or four weeks or however long you want to take. Alts are also easily solved by making the grind take less time per character that's maxed, it's that simple but Blizzard has reasons for not implementing this type of system.

The "arbitrary time gating" you're talking about is literally the game, there is no way to make content that isn't "time gated" unless you literally get it instantly when you log in. The problem with current time gates is that they're linked to real life time and aren't simply based on hours played. People don't dislike the grind itself usually, as long as the grind is fun or at least tolerable. People don't like that they have to do the 20 hour grind over 2 months because it's all locked behind dailies that you clear in 10 minutes then have nothing to do.

[Firebert]

I just hope that if Blizzard starts seeing Covenantism they'll step in, similarly to LFR in Firelands.

[A Chozo]

Good players will handle it - by investing needless amounts of time to swap depending on what their current activity or focus is. Also bad design.

Nah, it's good design. There's a loud, small part of the community creating a problem around it because they are speedrunners and as such their opinions obviously isn't being considered on this regard. No dev jeopardizes a games' well being for speedrunners.

Everyone else with a healthy attitude will chose whatever covenant and push to the maximum within it's constraints. Mythic Denathrius will fall faster for the guilds that do the weird shit and that's ok.

I just hope you didn't pre-order the expansion (for your own sake) because you sound somewhat irritaed with it's basic premise at the same time that most of us is ok with the way Covenants will work. Vote with your wallet!

[cancel]

Okay sure boys, lets boil it down in very simple way.
I am top 200 guild player ( which obviously mean i need my char to be set up in the best mathematically possible way, because DPS matters when u prog at this level ),
and I am high rating at seasons, gladiator+ ( means above 2400 ), how exactly do i make one character be useful in both since my choice is permanent and obviously abilities/conduits/soulbinds will be diff for PvE and PvP, so exactly how is that expansion already looking better than BFA? I have to make 2 Mages in order to play optimal at both disciplines, which is purely idiotic... You can't simple defend a system that is this idiotic and support it, if you are not one yourself.

[Soon-TM]

I just hope that if Blizzard starts seeing Covenantism they'll step in, similarly to LFR in Firelands.

Oh, they probably will. Maybe by 9.2, or more likely 9.3, covenant skills will be freely swappable